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Bolters suddenly suffering from recoil...

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dont Like: Grey Knights since 5th Edition, Ollanius Pious (any version), Space Wolves since 6th Ed, New Black Templars, Dinobots, Perpetuals, Vulkan being a Perpetual, Tempestus Scions (as it was mentioned earlier the Schola being Torture Porn Hogwarts is dumb), Ratlings (they've always been around though and I've always hated them).

Meh Tier: Imperium Secundus, New Tau, FarsightxShadowsun implications, NewCrons, Alpha Legion (its really got this back and forth of good and bad with a healthy dose of completely stupid, looking at you Cabal)

I'm sure there is more for Don't like and Meh, but I cant think of them right now. There's also probably some retcon I like somewhere. Hell if I know what it is.

I don't mind the Imperial Secundus or new Tau out of those, but Dinobots and GKs I especially dislike.

 farmersboy wrote:
Bolters suddenly suffering from recoil...

it makes sense they'd have recoil though.

too many focus on the negative, so I'm gonna focus on what I like.

The fleshing out of the HH series, this is and has never been a retcon, previously it was a historical view on the HH 10k years after the event, so of course differences will crop up when we follow the lives of the characters that were actually there, this also explains the changes in olanius pious, some worlds who worship the emp think it was a custodies, a marine, or a normal human, none will know the truth that he was a perpetual, this also, to me, makes his death MORE of a tragedy, he is immortal, he literally gives up eternity to try to stop chaos, suffering a horrific death in return, just as sanguinius did, both knew they would die, but did it anyway.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dont Like: Grey Knights since 5th Edition, Ollanius Pious (any version), Space Wolves since 6th Ed, New Black Templars, Dinobots, Perpetuals, Vulkan being a Perpetual, Tempestus Scions (as it was mentioned earlier the Schola being Torture Porn Hogwarts is dumb), Ratlings (they've always been around though and I've always hated them).

Meh Tier: Imperium Secundus, New Tau, FarsightxShadowsun implications, NewCrons, Alpha Legion (its really got this back and forth of good and bad with a healthy dose of completely stupid, looking at you Cabal)

I'm sure there is more for Don't like and Meh, but I cant think of them right now. There's also probably some retcon I like somewhere. Hell if I know what it is.

I don't mind the Imperial Secundus or new Tau out of those, but Dinobots and GKs I especially dislike.

Yeah, I dont really mind Imperium Secundus or the New Tau, but Im not overly fond of them either. Hence "Meh"

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
I feel like I'm the only one who actually likes the new Alpha Legion fluff. Subversion and guerilla warfare kinda go hand in hand, and it makes sense to me at least to not reveal your actual leader while doing so. There's instances of body doubles across fiction (and probably irl, I'm sure) already. It makes them that much more flavorful beyond things like, "This Legion rides bikes, this legion hits things with axes, these two(!) legions do siege warfare, this legion is ROMANS IN SPAAAACE"

Don't worry. Almost everyone likes the Alpha Legion.

More Alpha Legion propaganda.

BrianDavion wrote:

 farmersboy wrote:
Bolters suddenly suffering from recoil...

it makes sense they'd have recoil though.

Why, when they have a booster charge that fires the round out of the barrel before the main charge kicks in? They were specifically described as having little to no recoil. It's just another example of BL's shoddy writing, like having Space Marines keep huge weapons across their backs, forgetting the huge power pack already there.

One particular thing that always bugged me that I don't know if it's still around or not was the Space marine new recruit system. In 4ed it stated that once a scout had proven his worth he was elected into one of the reserve companies. He was then given training in power armour and grew accustomed to the black carpace. The newcommers that "developed a fine eye for shooting" was organised into heavy weapon squads and those that showed particular talents in close quarter was organised into assult squads. Some marines showed an apptitude for technology and was thus sent to assist in the armoury and those marines that developed a knack for tending to their battle brothers wounds where sent to study with the apochatheries. This makes perfect sence to me. It's even stated in the 3ed codex that one of the tactical reserve companies was in a constant state of training on some deathworld, rather then rotating between guard duties, combat readinessm training and maintanance like the other companies. Read between the lines and you can see how this company would be new recruits learning to cope with the black carpace and learning to fight as space marines.
Basicly scout--->tactical--->specialist

In 5th it was changed to a scout being first accepted into a devastator squad, then sent to serve in an assult squad and then organised into tactical squads. It doesn't state anywhere how this actually worked though. I'd assume that they enter a devastator reserve company and then transfer to an assult company and finally move on to being tactical. However this is weird because squads are drafted from the reserves so a devastator reserve squad would somehow be the most unreliable in the chapter, being the newest with the black carpace. It's also weird that due to the high mortality of space marines one would think they'd micro manage their few numbers for maximum fighting potential, playing on individual streangths and weaknesses.

Is this still in the 5ed (and he who shall not be nameds) line of thought or did they change it back to the far more sensible one?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Retcons I like
Newcrons, Gave them more feeling IMO, before they where kinda bland. The new new crons feel like a legitimate threat, an army that is still unfeeling towards the for while still retaining some personality
Ones I dont like.
Tau using Giant suits, I really really dont like it.

Seconded...now I am not really big fan of Newcrons, but I really did not like Oldcrons. They felt detached and poorly thought out. 3rd Edition Necron codex has some of the worst 40k fluff I've read. 'Tomb Kings in Space' is not too imaginative but at least it's something.

Don't like the new Tau. Stompy giant robots, that's not The Way. Lot of the Tau fluff was rewritten for 6th edition Codex for no good reason, most notably Kroot.

I don't like the new Blood Angels. In the past they were a dying chapter standing in the shadow of their former reputation, now they're just another bunch of Baron Whoopass von Badass-strain of marines.

I do like that Native American theme from Dark Angels has been mostly faded out. It was a styles clash with their monastic outlook.

Sisters retconned to Inquisition was bad, re-retconned back to Ecclesiarchy was good.

In newer lore, Squats do exist and hints about them are dopped here and there. I think GW just doesn't like the name 'squat'. It is pretty daft.

I really don't like where the Tau are going.

The Riptide was a step too far but tolerable. Everything since, while pretty, pisses me off.

If GW wants to sell Tau players models, perhaps we could get some more of the dozen+ races the Tau have joined to the Greater Good. I want some lizardmen in my 40k.

Newcrons blow, as everyone else has said. Same to the nerfs to the Black Templar in fluff.

In general, we need a lot less of the founding chapters and a lot more of the other 991.

I like the idea of Native American space marines, but it didn't really fit in with the Dark Angels' fluff and history, so I guess I like the retcon, but am also disappointed by it?

 fallinq wrote:

A sweet fluff idea that I hated getting retconned out was in one of the old BL Dark Angels novels. At the end of the novel it revealed that

Spoiler:

it was THE LION and his forces, not Luther's, who were going to side with Horus. They beat down the real loyalists under Luther, but when Horus had already lost before they could get properly involved, they did a 180 again and pretended to be loyal all along, guarding the secret so closely it became completely forgotten by subsequent generations of DA. Now only The Fallen remember the truth.

I loved this twist. It was a genuinely good one for people immersed in 40k lore and this twist explains EVERYTHING that doesn't make sense about the Dark Angels. Tons of other chapters have had members and successor chapters turn to Chaos. Why is it such a big deal for the Dark Angels? Why the secrecy? Why the obsession? What's so special about this one particular batch of traitors? It all made sense with this. Only now it's been nixed, it was just a traitor lying, and Dark Angels don't make sense again. So I guess it was a retcon that I loved followed by a re-retcon that I hated.

I absolutely love this. Makes DA so much better.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The whole "Imperial Truth" angle is a ret-con, only popularized in the last decade or so as we have seen an uptick in "science vs religion" debates in the real world. The Emperor was not some arch-atheist, he knew full damn well that gods existed, he just didn't like them (and kind of wanted a piece of that action). His is a very long game with the goal of shouldering his way into a place at the divine table.

This is one piece of BL HH fluff I actually like. An atheist attempting to usher a secular empire ending up worshipped as a god is hilarious.

 farmersboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 farmersboy wrote:
Bolters suddenly suffering from recoil...

it makes sense they'd have recoil though.

Why, when they have a booster charge that fires the round out of the barrel before the main charge kicks in? They were specifically described as having little to no recoil. It's just another example of BL's shoddy writing, like having Space Marines keep huge weapons across their backs, forgetting the huge power pack already there.

because there's no way to vent that propellant. thus that booster charge is gonna have some kick to it. a bolter may not have recoil equivilant to what it should no, but it's going to have some recoil.

Newcrons are terrible. Fluff is full of cringe and they just became another minor xenos threat

 Harriticus wrote:
Newcrons are terrible. Fluff is full of cringe and they just became another minor xenos threat

their having personality doesn't change anything about their threat level

Yeah, in the old fluff they were no threat at all...

So many changes in this thread I don't like.

But one thing I do like without reservation is the changing of Space Sharks to Carcharodon Astra. All the Forge World changes were better than the previous fluff. While the changes to the chapter symbol and color scheme were ideal. Making them Ravenguard descents was really thematic, and expands on both chapters. I simply ignore that awful FF games Death Watch fluff, as it makes no sense.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I really don't like that they made the C'tan into the Necron version of Pokemons though.

i agree.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The newcrons aren't really a retcon, because that would imply the oldcrons had any meaningful fluff.

Exactly . oldcron lore ...........uh........what lore ?

Write even a short story of any depth or length about a mindless moron machine ? I would like to see anyone actually do that . Even with a generous slice of suspension of disbelief , it would have to have all the spice of reading a phone book , or be so dumb even an 8 year old would disdain it.

If you never actually read the necron lore, or went in expecting another epic tale of heroism, instead of a tale of a ancient evil beyond human understanding, yes.


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Backfire wrote:
Yeah, in the old fluff they were no threat at all...

Oh yeah, 5 necron ships nearly landing on mars, despite the imperial defenses. Or a C'tan posing as a governor. Or the slaughter of Santuary 101. Totally no threat at all.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you never actually read the necron lore, or went in expecting another epic tale of heroism, instead of a tale of a ancient evil beyond human understanding, yes.


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Backfire wrote:
Yeah, in the old fluff they were no threat at all...

Oh yeah, 5 necron ships nearly landing on mars, despite the imperial defenses. Or a C'tan posing as a governor. Or the slaughter of Santuary 101. Totally no threat at all.

except it wasn't beynd understanding it was just "THEY WANT TO KILL EVERYTHING CAUSE..... C'TAN!" the "alien beyond all human understanding CAN be intreasting, but 99% of the time it's just an excuse to have a great evil critter do stuff "cause it can"

Kill everyone? No. Enslave humanity so they can become cattle for the C'tan? Yes. The C'tan eats souls. Killing everyone would be counterproductive.

The C'tan were basically the lawful antithesis to the chaos gods. That's what made them interesting.

Sanctuary 101 was Newcrons.

Epic tales of heroism I have never much cared for.

A tale of ancient evil beyond human understanding --- exactly ; eternal life ( or the closest thing to it temporally ) and fabulous power and wealth , and the result is they are rendered utterly miserable . And it's a coherent narrative.

And an actually different narrative, that is, not the exact same narrative to be found in Hollywood, Walmart, contemporary high school, etc, etc, etc, etc.

" The C'tan were basically the lawful antithesis to the chaos gods. " --- Now that's an idea worth development. But as I already stated I thought dubing down the C'Tan was going in the wrong direction.

Sanctuary 101 was originally from the 3rd ed necron codex. I verified it myself. It's on page 22.
The sacrifice of one's soul for eternal life, all for revenge, and damning themselves in the process, was also explored in the 3rd ed book.

It was a bit harsher there, as whilst in the 5th ed book they retained their freewill, they had nothing in the 3rd ed book. That's not to say they had no personality or intelligence; the lords were certainly intelligent, and it was possible for lords to think and have some level of personality, it just wasn't obvious as 5th ed lords, who were more or less human in their mannerisms.

Not to mention that the 5th ed book has a plothole considering the origin story; why would the C'tan not completely enslave the necrons, and delete their personalities? It doesn't make sense to me.
Like, what were they thinking? "oh we are going to steal your culture, your souls and make you into our pawns, but we'll let your Overlords think for themselves and continue having control of their armies, just don't betray us, k?"

Sanctiry101 was a White Dwarf article originally, to introduce the necrons to 40k. Supposed to be the first contact scenario.

 Selym wrote:
Sanctiry101 was a White Dwarf article originally, to introduce the necrons to 40k. Supposed to be the first contact scenario.

Huh, was it? That's interesting. Still predates 5th ed though.
What other lore bits were outside of the codex? I know about Xenology, and Medusa V, but anything else?
I still can't remember where I read that bit about Flayed Ones being insane, because I can't find the relevant passage in the codex.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Sanctiry101 was a White Dwarf article originally, to introduce the necrons to 40k. Supposed to be the first contact scenario.

Huh, was it? That's interesting. Still predates 5th ed though.
What other lore bits were outside of the codex? I know about Xenology, and Medusa V, but anything else?
I still can't remember where I read that bit about Flayed Ones being insane, because I can't find the relevant passage in the codex.

The C'tan where first mentioned in WD. IIRC it said something about the "Ancient star gods servants that sleep beyond the gates of -insert epic name-". They first appeared as art in 3ed. A necron warrior with the description "unkown".



On topic: Horus losing the siege of terra. techincally this is not a retcon since what actually happened is highly debated but I prefer the story in an old WD, the one for the first cityfight expansion. They had the entire battle for terra written down where it was quite clearly stated that Horus lost because the defenders outlasted his blits, which left him with the choice of retreating or to lower the shields and challenge the Emperor directly. He chose the latter and it was just mere luck for him that the Emperor took the bait as his army would have been crushed had the fighting prolonged. This tale has changed over the years back and forth. In the last one I read the Imperium was about to lose when Horus just happened to lower his shields. I prefer the old story where Horus is close to losing and bets all on a desperate gamble that ultimately fails.

EDIT: As a matter of fact I loved everything about this story. The legions fighting all out, the traitor primarchs being unleashed at the local populace and the loyalist primarchs performing heroic deeds, the titan legions shelling the imperial palace and the constant race againt the clock for the traitors, all leading to a climax that every 40k fan know by heart.

The whole oldones making everything annoyed me.

I dislike the loss of "True Grit". I think that its awesome, from a lore side, that some marines are just awesome enough to have pistol grip bolters, and are trained in such a way that they can use them in close combat.

I know GK, SW, and some other marines had them. To me, it gave those few marines a more elite close combat specialist feeling. Now they have bolter, pistol and CCW. Doesn't really feel like the same specialist, just makes me think they made sure not to forget something at home.... or have a fanny pack to carry it all.

Oh yeah, I remember true grit. That was a cool rule.

I miss Living Ammunition as well; that was a neat little fluffy rule for nids.

Conscripts in the 3rd ed IG book, iirc at a rule called Send in the Next Wave, where you recycled destroyed conscript squads.

Gaunts had a similar rule called Without Number.

 KesaAnna wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I really don't like that they made the C'tan into the Necron version of Pokemons though.

i agree.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The newcrons aren't really a retcon, because that would imply the oldcrons had any meaningful fluff.

Exactly . oldcron lore ...........uh........what lore ?

Write even a short story of any depth or length about a mindless moron machine ? I would like to see anyone actually do that . Even with a generous slice of suspension of disbelief , it would have to have all the spice of reading a phone book , or be so dumb even an 8 year old would disdain it.

Except even back in oldcron lore the Lords weren't mindless. Great example of this is provided in xenology.