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2016/05/27 01:17:51
Subject: Re:Dakka Comic book discussion thread (take two)
I agree with you -- there was nothing wrong with the New 52 Superman that you can't lay at the feet of the writers and apparently spotty editorial control. It was a fresh and really interesting take on the character...who IMO was let down by the constant writing changes and a weird obsession with doing stuff TO him (becoming Doomsday, losing his powers, secret identity being exposed, etc.) rather than letting us get to know him.
Quite honestly, they've apparently given into the whiners, and now we'll a healthy dose of bland sameness that had no one really caring about Superman by the end of the post-Crisis period. For feth's sake, people need to get over the red underwear and spit curl. And they also would have gotten Clark and Lois together eventually. But the whiners won, so buckle in for lots of family-in-trouble stories, scintillating one-shot square-offs with villains like Livewire, and lots of pseudo-moral lecturing, especially to little Supes. I can't believe they even dusted of Jurgens -- who was always a better artist than writer -- to oversee this stuff. So yeah...boo.
Although they do hint rather strongly in Rebirth that New 52 Supes may be back...although there are apparently some complications were weren't aware of. More on that after you read Rebirth #1.
Here are the spoilers for those who've read Rebirth #1.
Spoiler:
Wow...yeah. Where to start? This will be very rambling.
It's certainly interesting, with a big ol' meta-commentary on the state of DC comics. I think that's slightly muddled, but more on that later. Anyway, the revelation that the New 52 isn't a new universe per se, but instead the post-Crisis universe that's been monkeyed with by Dr. Manhattan is nothing anyone could have expected. The interesting part is that they've been laying this groundwork for at least two years. "Oz"...i.e. Ozymandias...has been showing up here and there in Superman comics for quite some time. And we have a new, mysterious Question, who has red hair...so Rorschach, then? Could the new heroes in Gotham be Night Owl and Silk Spectre?
And the Superman situation is certainly interesting. If these are the "same" characters, but post-Crisis Supes was lifted out of that reality by Brainiac...then who is the New 52 Superman? I think there's a case to be made that it's a rehabilitated Superboy Prime. Oz says he trained the New 52 Superman. And the Legionnaire (Saturn Girl?) says she's a friend of his, which is a clue, methinks. That would explain Oz's comments to Superdad...neither of them are what they think. Superdad is the rightful Supes of this universe, and New 52 Supes is the one from a past reality. Again...boo. But I think it's interesting that Johns seems to be trying -- in multiple ways -- to bring ALL the various DC continuities together, sorta. See the three Jokers to explain the early Joker vs. the Killing Joke era Joker vs. the modern version. Not sure I like it...but I see that he's trying to embrace more old stuff, like Grant Morrison, but maybe not in the same way.
It's odd to consider that probably two years after the New 52 launched, they were already laying seeds for this stuff. I don't pretend to know what that really means about the thinking in the DC offices. It would have been at the same time that Snyder was doing epic stuff on Batman, Azzarello on WW, etc.
I think the meta-commentary is a little strange, or at least misguided if it's aimed at the New 52 in particular. It wasn't during the New 52 that Hal Jordan became a villain, or Superman killed Zod, or Dr. Light raped Sue Dibny. It's probably meant to be a commentary about comics SINCE the Watchmen landed, but it's still odd to launch a supposedly lighter, smilier and shinier new era by bringing the Watchmen into continuity and killing *a* Superman, and Pandora to boot.
Really have to see where things go from here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/27 01:47:52
Ahtman wrote: New 52 was a good idea for about two comics before DC invalidated the whole point by re-introducing the multiverse almost immediately.
My bitterness knows no measure. Or maybe it does I don't know.
Personally, I have no issue with the multiverse, I think this thing of alternate timelines and realities is something that is a staple of comic books, very hard to do in any other media and when it works (with things like Marvel's Ultimates, Forever Evil, Infinite Crisis, Injustice ect) I think it really is quite cool.
The reason I appreciate the N52 so much is because up until a year or so ago, I was a Marvel guy through and through, and when I started thinking 'maybe I'll give those DC guys a shot, I like the films and the games ect', the N52 stuff provided a baggage-free way of getting involved in the setting. Being able to pick up the first volume of the Justice League run and jump right in without needing to worry about the impact of a story from 20 years ago or go through several decades to get a history of each character made the whole thing much more accessible to newcomers.
Equally, I think it's a shame that Marvel don't have anything like that.. I guess they tried with Marvel Now and currently with All New All Different, but at a cursory glance it seems those are still loaded with baggage and crossover stuff and such that make them very hard to get into having been 'out' since about the end of Dark Reign. I'll think about buying a Marvel volume, then look at the synopsis and realise I have no idea about half the things it's referring to, whereas with the N52, they managed to start over with something that was easy to pick up without needing to retread every origin story. Batman, Superman, Flash et al I knew from the films and TV ect, but my first N52 comic was actually Red Hood and the Outlaws (which by the way is highly recommended, great fun), 3 characters I knew next to nothing about, but I could read the comic and have a good idea of who they were and what they were about.
2016/05/27 10:18:38
Subject: Dakka Comic book discussion thread (take two)
I don't have an issue with the idea of multiverse either but when the aim is to lessen its overall impact and start fresh but within a month or two they are already have a comic with multiverse characters coming around it sort of dampens the mood. I figured they would bring it back eventually, just not so fast, as it sort of undercuts the whole premise. Imagine in the Ultimate line if on the second month they brought in all the old Marvel 616 characters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/27 10:19:34
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/05/27 11:46:33
Subject: Dakka Comic book discussion thread (take two)
Dragging the topic away from Rebirth and Captain America for a bit, is anyone else reading Monstress?
I have to say, I'm absolutely loving it. The art is spectacular, the universe they're building is very cool, it's possibly the cheapest comic I'm reading, and it's just generally excellent.
On my front, I finally finished the Claremont run of the X-Men, and have started Grant Morrison's 2001 run. I'm really enjoying it so far! I find that I can read it much faster than Claremont, simply because it has about half the wordcount per panel, but it still has a lot of storytelling quality and panache.
I also enjoying Emma Frost as a character. She isn't an anti-hero, and she isn't misunderstood; she is a total bitch and bad guy who just so happens to have joined the good guy team as they were the only force of 'mutant defenders' left. I get the impression that she really only cares about protecting mutant girls, and the rest of the world can go hang. It makes for some glorious repartee between her and the other team members.
Saying that, the Cassandra Nova stuff was just okay. Not my favourite bad guy ever. I get the distinct impression that she'll be back!
2016/05/27 14:07:17
Subject: Dakka Comic book discussion thread (take two)
Ahtman wrote: I don't have an issue with the idea of multiverse either but when the aim is to lessen its overall impact and start fresh but within a month or two they are already have a comic with multiverse characters coming around it sort of dampens the mood. I figured they would bring it back eventually, just not so fast, as it sort of undercuts the whole premise. Imagine in the Ultimate line if on the second month they brought in all the old Marvel 616 characters.
My issue with the New 52 at first was that it was hard to know what was in continuity or not. I'm really not obsessive about such things, but there were some characters starting more or less from scratch, and then others whose post-Crisis storylines stayed intact -- Batman's Dr. Hurt saga, Green Lantern's War of Light, etc. I suppose it wasn't about continuity so much as knowing what has actually happened to this or that character. Because that forms their character.
With time -- and as the New 52 storylines grew -- I became less worried about it. Which is a skill that should serve me well if I decide to follow DC post-Rebirth, as it appears that everything is more or less "in".
Very confusing Rebirth #1 spoilers ahead...
Spoiler:
I mean, we see an elderly Johnny Thunder, apparently on Earth Prime, and he and Wally talk about the Justice Society. But the JSA is on Earth 2 in the New 52 continuity, as in the pre-Crisis universe, right? But like he does other places in the issue, Johns suggests here that that Earth Prime *IS* the post-Crisis unified Earth, which had a WW2-era JSA. But meanwhile, the pre-Crisis/New 52 style in-their-primes Earth 2 JSA still exists...I guess.
This may all sort out...? But apparently this is DC eating it's cake and having it too. The unified post-Crisis Earth still exists, and so does the multiverse. It's apparently ALL in...no matter which iteration of the DC universe. Cripes, Batman's "three Jokers" seems to include the original '40s style Joker.
This is why the two Supermen mystery could have some major twists. My #1 theory regarding the Supermen is that New 52 Supes was a redeemed Superboy Prime or perhaps the pocket universe Superboy, trained by Ozymandias. However, it's possible that he or the post-Crisis Supes (who is therefore the rightful New 52 Supes, if you can follow this INSANITY this far) is a pre-Crisis (Silver or Bronze Age) Superman. Apparently the original plan for the post-Crisis universe back in the '80s was that Earth-1 Kal-El Superman would die and be replaced by the older Earth-2 Kal-L Superman, thus "bringing back" the "original" Superman. Johns might be dusting this general concept off for Rebirth.
It's all kinda interesting, but it's hard to see how it's *good*, given that I'm an old fart DC fan and I can barely keep this stuff straight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 03:16:12
