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 Peregrine wrote:
IMO take the most powerful options, paint your models well, and make up some appropriate fluff to justify it.

Why exactly do you think that? this isn't 40k you know, It isn't a set of rules to exploit.
This was not why the HH was made or why it became popular; quite the opposite.

You're advocating turning up to a historical re-enactment with 'game' mentality; not cool, and trying to pass that off as 'normal' or as something to be encouraged is alien to every HH player i've met.

Anyway, winning is the primary point of playing these games- if winning wasn't important they wouldn't require you to keep score.

No. Both sides having fun is the primary point. Winning helps, I won't deny it, but a game where you show one another your army lists and there's no point even deploying models is no fun for either side. By comparison, I've enjoyed a lot of games I've lost. That's not to say I won't try my hardest to win, but I'd rather do so in game, from a position of more-or-less equality than spend two hours clubbing seal pups.

locarno24 wrote:

Anyway, winning is the primary point of playing these games- if winning wasn't important they wouldn't require you to keep score.

No. Both sides having fun is the primary point. Winning helps, I won't deny it, but a game where you show one another your army lists and there's no point even deploying models is no fun for either side. By comparison, I've enjoyed a lot of games I've lost. That's not to say I won't try my hardest to win, but I'd rather do so in game, from a position of more-or-less equality than spend two hours clubbing seal pups.

This. I play to have fun for the most part. It's why I also play with a selective group of people.

If I'm in open general play, or at a tourney, then it's about the win, but that is very rare for me.

If your going to bring the biggest baddest units and models and power game through, save yourself the money and find someone who will let you play with tin cans as a stand in and just roll the approriate number of dice for what your tin can is shooting. The reason why 30k isnt competitive isnt so much the players but it helps, its the fact that it is essentially a rule set designed for historical reenactment in a made up history.

We'll always have the professional Warhammer athletes. *shrug*

But I don't think 30K is something that will appeal to the biggest toolbags once they look past the veneer. While 30K isn't a 'balanced' game, there are *so* many more efficiencies to exploit on the 40K side if winning is the only real goal. And while the 40K tournament scene is slowly dying, there are still many more events with more support than what you see with 30K. Plus, the price of FW stuff and the potential hassles of working with resin are such that you have to enjoy the hobby side to get into 30K seriously.

Besides, this stuff operates on a continuum, right? There are lots of hobbyists in 30K, and yet you don't see much of certain units because they're so grossly overpriced. My nascent WE army isn't going to be built around Rampagers, I can tell you that. But then it's also still going to look like a WE army. And again, I think this is helped by how the Legion rules and rites tend to reward you for fielding some fluffier stuff.

Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

depending on who you are talking to: Because certain groups of people have no understanding of 'self-limits' i.e. those who bring spartans in low point games, those who bring 6+ quad mortars ( I still wanna try it once ), those who bring jetbikes, wraithknights, and warp spiders to low point friendly games, the list goes on. These people tend to get noticed and remembered, and people don't like to see that type of view spreading, if that makes sense.

Spartans in low-points game are not a good choice. What are you actually going to win with if so much of your army is wrapped up in something that can't score?

Various Eldar units are irrelevant here in the world of 30k.

I always have...and always will run Super fluff.

Footsloggers. Dreads. Footsloggers. This is the way of the 14th Legion. This is my way.

Our Rites of War?

Shall be the Reaping...or if I want to be fancy...the Primarch's Chosen.

SLOG. SLOG SON SLOG.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Spartans in low-points game are not a good choice. What are you actually going to win with if so much of your army is wrapped up in something that can't score?

Various Eldar units are irrelevant here in the world of 30k.

Why? Eldar were in existence then. I play them in a 30K setting now and again. Just don't go full stupid with the formations and stuff, keep it "fluffy", and they fit in the setting well.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I always have...and always will run Super fluff.

Footsloggers. Dreads. Footsloggers. This is the way of the 14th Legion. This is my way.

Our Rites of War?

Shall be the Reaping...or if I want to be fancy...the Primarch's Chosen.

SLOG. SLOG SON SLOG.

Quite, Brother! Purge with not-so-holy chem! Praise be to the well equipped infantry man! All bow before the might of dread-spam, terminator-spam, and chem-spam!

IMO, the best way to incorporate 40K armies into HH games is to use one of the HH FOCs. I'm not 100% but I'm pretty sure this is exactly what FW recommends you do in their literature.

I'd go one further and say, in addition to using a HH FOC, disallow all formations and all Rites of War.

This is how we do it in our group, anyways, and it's worked our pretty well for the most part.

Why disallow Rites of War? They are one of the best parts of 30k.

Because RoWs are kind of like Formations in a sense, and if you would want to prohibit your opponent from using formations, I think its appropriate to do the same.

I've always done it like this:
both sides use the age of darkness CAD. Only troops score (certain units we give implacable advance i.e. 'nid warriors, nobz, etc.). Allow a single formation (but not a formation of formations) for the 40k side. allow the 40k army to double the max unit size (forge world recommendation) for their units. I.e. 60-gaunt strong squad of gaunts

Unlike formations, RoW typically come with some fairly hefty restrictions. Like the Reaping, which gives formation-like bonuses but disables Run, Flat Out and Turbo-Boost!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I've always done it like this:
both sides use the age of darkness CAD. Only troops score (certain units we give implacable advance i.e. 'nid warriors, nobz, etc.). Allow a single formation (but not a formation of formations) for the 40k side. allow the 40k army to double the max unit size (forge world recommendation) for their units. I.e. 60-gaunt strong squad of gaunts

This looks good.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Unlike formations, RoW typically come with some fairly hefty restrictions. Like the Reaping, which gives formation-like bonuses but disables Run, Flat Out and Turbo-Boost!

I do understand this, and I think HH Rites of War are basically what 40k formations should be ("accept limits and get rewards" vs. just "get rewards").

That said, alot of these newer 40k codices since Necrons are actually built around formations, so asking the opponent not to use formations, while you yourself do not give up anything, just doesn't seem right to me.

I could see Brennonjw's approach working, but I think 40k formations have become so silly, I honestly just don't want to play against them anymore.

Col. Dash wrote:
Easy, build what you like the look and paint scheme on. If it looks cool to you go for it. Look at the overall rules later. Its how I built my Tau army and keeps it friendly for normal games. Essentially read the fluff for the unit and get it in your head how you think it would look, if you like it, go for it.

Or think army wide, I want my army to do X on the tabletop, how do I accomplish this?

I do not view 30k as competitive at all and I do not believe competitiveness was the intention of the designers as well. Thus I will not min max or spam the best units just to be TFG. Then again I have been playing 30k since the rules initially came out and think this newer breed of 30k players has the wrong idea about it. To me its about epic combat and moving mass numbers of troops and tanks across the table. Win or lose it looks cool and that's the point.

in all fairness, EVERY HH book 1-6 tells you to play fluffy, if you want to play another way, that's fine, but is not the intention of the designers, I'm gonna get accused of being a 30k elitist, but take that 40k attitude and keep it there.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Why exactly do you think that? this isn't 40k you know, It isn't a set of rules to exploit.
This was not why the HH was made or why it became popular; quite the opposite.

You're advocating turning up to a historical re-enactment with 'game' mentality; not cool, and trying to pass that off as 'normal' or as something to be encouraged is alien to every HH player i've met.

This is all your opinion, not the rules of the game. Please stop acting like you are the only one who knows how to have fun, and anyone who enjoys playing the game in a different way is Doing It Wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
If you bring 9 quad-mortars, a spartan, and 2 fire raptors in one list, you're being the donkey-cave, not forgeworld for having 'broken rules.'

CASUAL AT ALL COSTS OBEY MY FLUFF OR YOU ARE A WAAC TFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't see anything different between 30k vs. 40k regards power armies vs. fluff armies. If people want to lean more on the power-gaming route and have willing opponents, who cares?

Maybe some of you all have tons of available opponents and are worried about a scene at an flgs going sour or something, but I'm playing with a fairly small group, and smaller still are those with a 30k army. It's pretty simple to work these things out if you know your opponents. )

Is 30k powergaming even a thing at hobby stores and such? Are there stores that hold HH tournaments? It's 100% 40k at my nearest flgs as far as I understand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
If you bring 9 quad-mortars, a spartan, and 2 fire raptors in one list, you're being the donkey-cave, not forgeworld for having 'broken rules.'

CASUAL AT ALL COSTS OBEY MY FLUFF OR YOU ARE A WAAC TFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OR, bring those things, but don't have the gakky explanation of "I just bring the most powerful options" that you gave earlier. ESPECIALLY since it's this kinda crap that make people refuse to play against 30k, eldar or other similar strong lists. If your local metas is mostly power gamers, sure. If it's a mix, it would be good to have some self restraint. So instead of being an over-reactive dick, why not expand on your position if people saying "don't power game, 40k is better for that play-style than 30k is"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
I don't see anything different between 30k vs. 40k regards power armies vs. fluff armies. If people want to lean more on the power-gaming route and have willing opponents, who cares?

Maybe some of you all have tons of available opponents and are worried about a scene at an flgs going sour or something, but I'm playing with a fairly small group, and smaller still are those with a 30k army. It's pretty simple to work these things out if you know your opponents. )

Is 30k powergaming even a thing at hobby stores and such? Are there stores that hold HH tournaments? It's 100% 40k at my nearest flgs as far as I understand.

I think I've seen 1 or 2 HH tournaments/events, but from the army lists, they were all pretty toned down. As for 30k powergaming: locally we all 'threaten' with the best cheese we've uncovered, but no one actually fields these threats, it's more like a game of "My car is nicer than your car" but with silly rules.

You want fluffy and competitive?

Take the Alpha Legion and run a recon company.

Praetor on a jetbike loaded for bear, power dagger, digital lasers, paragon blade the whole bit or...

Take Skorr for some serious shenanigans hehe

Take three sniper recon squads, infiltrate them and enjoy being shrouded turn one,

Same goes for your 5-6 man jetbike squads with melta bombs. Infiltrate them in close and watch as your opponent shats himself trying to get through a 2+ armour and cover save turn one. Unless he has a Typhon at which point maybe outflank the bikes, my Typhon loves to eat jetbikes on turn 1.

Drop pod in a dual close combat Contemptor with graviton guns and neuter some heavy armour.

Take Javelin speeders and outflank them with multi meltas and either lascannons or missile launchers.

Alpha Legion are sneaky bastards and this Rite of War is perfectly balanced for fluff and strength.

It doesn't get any better than 30k.

valace2 wrote:
You want fluffy and competitive?

Take the Alpha Legion and run a recon company.

Praetor on a jetbike loaded for bear, power dagger, digital lasers, paragon blade the whole bit or...

Take Skorr for some serious shenanigans hehe

Take three sniper recon squads, infiltrate them and enjoy being shrouded turn one,

Same goes for your 5-6 man jetbike squads with melta bombs. Infiltrate them in close and watch as your opponent shats himself trying to get through a 2+ armour and cover save turn one. Unless he has a Typhon at which point maybe outflank the bikes, my Typhon loves to eat jetbikes on turn 1.

Drop pod in a dual close combat Contemptor with graviton guns and neuter some heavy armour.

Take Javelin speeders and outflank them with multi meltas and either lascannons or missile launchers.

Alpha Legion are sneaky bastards and this Rite of War is perfectly balanced for fluff and strength.

It doesn't get any better than 30k.

I might have a play with the Recon Rite of War with my Alpha Legion next game - I haven't really looked into many non-legion specific rites of war. Seems like fun and not stupidly OP but also not overly crap

Unfortunately head hunters are just not very good, and their RoW is flat out bad.

I like Coils, but it is better for larger games.

I run Pride, and am looking forward to running the Recon Company.

Alpha Legion are also into shock and awe, infiltrating terminators backed up by quad mortars and a Typhon.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
Why exactly do you think that? this isn't 40k you know, It isn't a set of rules to exploit.
This was not why the HH was made or why it became popular; quite the opposite.

You're advocating turning up to a historical re-enactment with 'game' mentality; not cool, and trying to pass that off as 'normal' or as something to be encouraged is alien to every HH player i've met.

This is all your opinion, not the rules of the game. Please stop acting like you are the only one who knows how to have fun, and anyone who enjoys playing the game in a different way is Doing It Wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
If you bring 9 quad-mortars, a spartan, and 2 fire raptors in one list, you're being the donkey-cave, not forgeworld for having 'broken rules.'

CASUAL AT ALL COSTS OBEY MY FLUFF OR YOU ARE A WAAC TFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, not 'my opinion' (like it's only me who thinks this!) It's the attitude espoused by everyone i've ever played against and mirrored by most in this thread.
If you have 'fun' breaking the rules of the game, thats cool, but is also catered for nicely by 40k - it's geared toward that and has even got some alien races to play as.

The point of the HH was as an expansion of the 40k rulebook to play battles set in the pre-history of the 40k universe;
The first book betrayal was set on isstvan3, the second was set on isstvan5 and both were nothing but 'historical re-encatments' - if you got into it between book 1 and two you got into it for that

So, no, not just my opinion - you would know that if you'd stopped to think about what you wrote before posting.

Also; 'stop acting like you are the only one who knows how to have fun'?
Because nobody but YOU knows how to have fun i suppose?
I'm going to pop with laughter in a minuite!


I was initially worried that this thread was getting off topic, but looking at the thread since ol' peregrine first posted is probably the best answer we could give... Kudos to all involved.

valace2 wrote:
Unfortunately head hunters are just not very good, and their RoW is flat out bad.

I like Coils, but it is better for larger games.

I run Pride, and am looking forward to running the Recon Company.

Alpha Legion are also into shock and awe, infiltrating terminators backed up by quad mortars and a Typhon.

Yeh I have given that RoW a go - wasn't the biggest fan, however it was just a 1500pt game I can see it being more beneficial when a giant chunk of your points value isn't taken up by 20 not that durable troops.
I think headhunters would be ALOT better if they had an additional attack in cc so they were more useful on the charge - but hey, I will still have at least one squad of them because they look boss as all hell, in fact I have used at least 1 squad of them in every single alpha legion game I have played

sm3g wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Unfortunately head hunters are just not very good, and their RoW is flat out bad.

I like Coils, but it is better for larger games.

I run Pride, and am looking forward to running the Recon Company.

Alpha Legion are also into shock and awe, infiltrating terminators backed up by quad mortars and a Typhon.

Yeh I have given that RoW a go - wasn't the biggest fan, however it was just a 1500pt game I can see it being more beneficial when a giant chunk of your points value isn't taken up by 20 not that durable troops.
I think headhunters would be ALOT better if they had an additional attack in cc so they were more useful on the charge - but hey, I will still have at least one squad of them because they look boss as all hell, in fact I have used at least 1 squad of them in every single alpha legion game I have played

I have a squad with combi meltas, figure I will run them when I finally get Alpharius, preferred enemy will help them quite a bit.

I just run mine with bolters and the heavy bolter - I am still not 100% I am convinced Banestrike rounds are worth it - purely from a reduced range perspective (which is what I assume contributes to their high point cost)

sm3g wrote:
I just run mine with bolters and the heavy bolter - I am still not 100% I am convinced Banestrike rounds are worth it - purely from a reduced range perspective (which is what I assume contributes to their high point cost)

Problem is veteran snipers outclass banestrike, which is another reason I like Pride. Outflank and take out those pesky T7 rapiers.

An extra attack would go a long way towards helping justify their point costs. Will run Laernan terminators when the models come out.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Nope, not 'my opinion' (like it's only me who thinks this!) It's the attitude espoused by everyone i've ever played against and mirrored by most in this thread.

The fact that other people share your opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion.

If you have 'fun' breaking the rules of the game, thats cool, but is also catered for nicely by 40k - it's geared toward that and has even got some alien races to play as.

And? Why are competitive players limited to playing only one game? The fact that 40k exists doesn't mean that 30k isn't available, just like the existence of MTG doesn't prevent a competitive player from playing X-Wing.

The point of the HH was as an expansion of the 40k rulebook to play battles set in the pre-history of the 40k universe;
The first book betrayal was set on isstvan3, the second was set on isstvan5 and both were nothing but 'historical re-encatments' - if you got into it between book 1 and two you got into it for that

That's funny, because I seem to remember every 30k book having general rules for building your own armies and fighting random battles with them, not just "historical" scenarios. Perhaps you got a different version of the book that has some pages missing?

Also; 'stop acting like you are the only one who knows how to have fun'?
Because nobody but YOU knows how to have fun i suppose?

I said no such thing. Do you honestly not understand the difference between "my way of having fun is correct, not yours" and "there is more than one way to have fun, yours isn't the only one"?