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I like the new model and all, but it is not only too expensive, it is way too dang big. Sure the Axe should be gigantic, but the Thirster himself has no other buff to his stat than the 'classic' Thirster. SInce the out of production metal/finecast Thirster is still a valid model to use AND it's actually smaller than a Daemon Prince, what is stopping someone from converting the old Thirster or even DP to have a big Axe and using it as a D-Thirster? This question applies to base size as well, the oval base is too big for something that is much easier to kill than a DreadKnight or Riptide

Technically absolutely nothing. The model is still a GW-made one and even though the D-axe didn't exist back then, you're still allowed to use the old model. You can also field him on a 60mm round base since that is the base he was supplied with.

I still use the old metal thirsters because they have a certain charm (and because I blew my money on five metal greater daemons and I'm gonna use them damnit!) to them. I dislike the overall size creep GW models have been going. However I should point out that the new D-thirster model is only marginally bigger than the older one; it looks a lot bigger because of the dynamic posing, the flame on the heels, and the position of the wings.

 Galef wrote:
I like the new model and all, but it is not only too expensive, it is way too dang big. Sure the Axe should be gigantic, but the Thirster himself has no other buff to his stat than the 'classic' Thirster. SInce the out of production metal/finecast Thirster is still a valid model to use AND it's actually smaller than a Daemon Prince, what is stopping someone from converting the old Thirster or even DP to have a big Axe and using it as a D-Thirster? This question applies to base size as well, the oval base is too big for something that is much easier to kill than a DreadKnight or Riptide

Well, the older, out of print model is for a unit with a different name. Strictly speaking, it was never meant to represent a "Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage" (or whichever if I got the name wrong). Purposefully taking a model that is large and converting/using an out of print model for a different named unit so that it will be smaller and potentially more survivable in game is the definition of modeling for advantage.

What's to stop someone from doing that? Nothing, but you'll run into lots of people who won't play with you and will think less of you as a sportsman.

Also, sounds like you're making several value judgments... "too dang big", "oval base is too big", "easier to kill". The rules don't care about these things. The model is the model. If you don't like its size, find players who allow modeling for advantage or pick a different unit to include in your army.

I'm not "modeling for advantage", I'm trying to use a model I already own and have lovingly converted. I also don't like how big the new Thirster is for storage purposes, he practically needs his own case.

I want to use this:


Please note that I originally had him on the double base when Fantasy was an actual game. I have since rebased him on the proper 60mm round base only.
I am perfectly happy to convert the Axe to be much bigger, but I am trying to get an overall consensus on whether it is worth it, or if I will not ever be running a D-Thirster (cuz I ain't buyin' that new fangled thingamagig)

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If it's worth anything, I would face that. I wanted to do a similar conversion too before the plastic thirster dropped.

There arent really any hard rules over it, however as noted, the model above is not a "Bloodthirster of..." he is just a "bloodthirster"

However as with all of this, it comes down to player conventions and tournaments. If in doubt, ask.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There arent really any hard rules over it, however as noted, the model above is not a "Bloodthirster of..." he is just a "bloodthirster"

However as with all of this, it comes down to player conventions and tournaments. If in doubt, ask.

[sarcasm] Yeah, I love it when GW changes that name of a unit so that OOP models are less likely to be used. [end sarcasm]
They did this with a ton of Necrons a while back. Few remember what Pariahs were and oop "Wraiths" are MUCH smaller than the current plastic "Canoptek Wraiths"

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I think this is going to fall into the area of intent... and intent is notoriously difficult to prove/legislate.

Assume two players, with both wanting to use the above model in place of a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage.

Situation #1
The first player has owned this model for years and just wants to be able to use his stuff. He's willing to play as though the model is larger for line of sight, cover purposes, assault, etc using the visual profile of the newer model as a guideline.

Situation #2
The second player has either owned this model for years, or recently acquired it when he realized it was smaller. He doesn't really care about wanting to use his "cherished models". He specifically wants to use the older model because of its smaller visual profile, potentially gaining advantage in game. He is not willing to use the current model's profile to offset any potential in game advantage.

Player #1 is fine. Good sport and I'd play with him all day. Player #2 is generally frowned on and many people will stop playing with him over time.

So, kinda depends on your intent. It sounded like you wanted to use the older model because it's smaller. I may have misunderstood. If you want to use the older model because you like it better, go for it. Just make sure you talk to your opponent. Many people I know will allow older models, but prefer you to use the new model's visual profile for line of sight, etc. purposes.

Yeah, I like the D-Thirster rules, but the price of the model and general up-scaling of size that GW is doing is a bit much for me. I am more than willing to use the "newer visual profile" even though I don't think I should have to.
I hate that so many models are getting bigger and bigger without the bump in stats to match. Why the heck is a T3 Pink Horror almost as big as a Space marine?

I liked how big models used to be and want to continue using the old model size as a basis for conversions. Here's an example:


These are Canoptek Wraiths that I converted. They are at least as big as the oop Wraiths, which are still valid models to use. They are, however, smaller than the current plastic Wraiths (which I again think are too big and the reason they got an unnecessary T bump in the new codex). It also cost me MUCH less to buy a box of Lych Guard/Praetorians to get 5 Wriaths than to buy 1 box of only 3 Wraiths.

So basically for me this boils down to cost of the model first, then refusal to participate in GW's up-scaling.

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...I love those Wraiths. Mind if I steal em for a possible all-wraith army? (I was thinking of using a "Wraith-Necron Lord" for the Canoptek Spyder)

 Kriswall wrote:

Well, the older, out of print model is for a unit with a different name. Strictly speaking, it was never meant to represent a "Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage" (or whichever if I got the name wrong). Purposefully taking a model that is large and converting/using an out of print model for a different named unit so that it will be smaller and potentially more survivable in game is the definition of modeling for advantage.

What's to stop someone from doing that? Nothing, but you'll run into lots of people who won't play with you and will think less of you as a sportsman.

Also, sounds like you're making several value judgments... "too dang big", "oval base is too big", "easier to kill". The rules don't care about these things. The model is the model. If you don't like its size, find players who allow modeling for advantage or pick a different unit to include in your army.

I have to say I agree with this, it isn't a 2nd ed terminator on a 25mm base, it's a whole new unit. I'd allow it for a game or two while you weighed up whether or not it was worth buying the "correct" model, but after that I'd be reluctant, purely because I don't want to have to keep visual track of what's what across the table.

 Galef wrote:
So basically for me this boils down to cost of the model first, then refusal to participate in GW's up-scaling.

That may work for your local group, but you'll want to check with the organizer for any events you attend as well as talk to any opponents you might play against. Like it or not, your conversion grants an in game advantage versus if you used the currently available models. In this instance, your conversions must have been made AFTER the old Wraith models became out of print. The problem many people will run into is that this looks functionally identical to someone who converted smaller models for in game advantage. Just be prepared to get pushback from some people.

Rufusing GW's upscaling is a good thing in my book but this is clearly modelling for advantage. So at least make your opponent shoot at them like they are the larger size, and figure out something with the bases. One of the worst thing you can do is deny your opponent a shot or claim cover because of these sort of conversions.

Seriously. One of the disadvantages of the d thirster is he can't take cover behind a land raider. Any conversion would need to be the same size and bulk. Even if it's just a scenic base.

Also this is a very cool deamon prince with a headswap not a bloodthirster nor has it ever been a bloodthirster.
This makes the whole oop / legacy model argument kinda void.




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I would accept this model outside cut throat games and inside more competitive games with the it is actually "his big" agreement preferably with a paper silhouette or something like it..

Ok, so it looks like it won't be worth it. I would have to do to much to make the model "acceptable" as a D-Thirster. Lucky for my the Tetrad exists and gives this model a purpose (along with my other 3 Greater Daemon conversions)