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 Stevefamine wrote:


I've never purchased any GW recasts before or handled any of those china rip offs. I'm aware they have a rep for being better - but looking at picture reviews on popular mainstreeam upvote boards - they're not that much better. Forgeworld has sent me some extremely poor Hydra casts back in 5th edition. Still mad about hours of hot water and greenstuff. I was unaware the price was that much lower - I expected it was a "Send your money here and hope the product shows up".

They really shouldn't be better at all should they?

As for prices, I can't really give a full response without crossing the line, but let's just say we're talking orders of magnitude, secure payment methods and people who care about the customer experience as much as pretty much any other business.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Actually I'd buy the metal shoulder pads in this case - as the metal is NICE/give the marine weight/I really like the Ultramarine metal shoulder pads I have. If I'm considering mass buying sternguard, I can afford metal shoulder pads off ebay.

to break even, It would cost me (to recast to 99% quality) around 100$ to produce around 100 shoulder pads. If I only need 30-40, I'd buy the damn ebay metal ones. If I had a whole battle company to do? The cost and time would out weigh the result/desire. I'm not painting 100 marines at once, I only will paint a dozen or so a week at most.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
This is especially true for OOP games like Epic and Battlefleet Gothic. The only reason those communities exist is dedicated recasters keeping the game alive, because if you tried to collect a 100% legit army you could buy a car for what you would spend. And again, if GW wanted that money, they should've kept the game alive.

Only way Epic is alive right now. Seriously.

If you paid me $100 dollars to recast you a shoulderpad 100 times I would profit about 80 bucks. You must never ever have recast anything, or anything with precision, or you have sloppy technique or something. Mold 1 shoulder pad. Cast it 10 times. Mold those 10 casts, cast ast that
9 times. Beck it wouldn't even take more than a couple hours.

 agnosto wrote:

I think you're conflating it because you're close to the topic. Calling it theft instead of the correct, legal term of "Copyright Infringement" is done to evoke an emotional/moral response. The sad fact is that companies like Disney have taken trademark and copyright to such an extreme that they can continue to make money on something for decades after the death of the artist. It benefits the company, not the artist. If they call it theft, then people will stop and say, "Well, stealing is wrong." but if they call it copyright infringement, they're less likely to get that instinctual emotional response based upon local mores. Calling it theft is also a deft way to attempt to avoid such gray areas as "fair use."

Ask yourself, how long has the concept of copyright been around and how long as theft been around. I remember recording songs off of the radio with my boombox when I was a kid; I suppose I was stealing then....oh wait, SOPA/PIPA didn't exist then.

It seems pretty silly to compare even the likes of GW to a behemoth like Disney. Most game manufacturers are tiny, tiny companies and "copyright infringement" of their IP means loss of real dollars to their business and their livelihood. I call that "theft".

Getting into a semantic pretzel in order to differentiate theft from copyright infringement seems needlessly pedantic when for this discussion about model miniatures the end result is essentially the same: unauthorized copies of models redistribute monies from the model creator to the recaster in a manner that is in most cases ethically questionable.

And regarding your boom box example, I used to do that too. I also sometimes went out and bought the single (ah... cassette tapes!) because I wanted the non-radio edit version of a song. But for the songs that I recorded and didn't buy, yeah, I was kinda stealing those songs. You were too. Shall I meet you in the town circle for our long overdue floggings?

For something created ten years after that I could care less.

Other thing like the image of the Lone Cypress in Pebble Beach, that is copyrighted and enforced. They can have my middle finger.

Edit: Food Seed protection can get a finger to.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No. Because recasting isn't theft. It is, as has already been discussed, copyright violation. It isn't even counterfeiting unless the seller is passing the recasts off as originals, it isn't theft because the recasts aren't taken from anyone - unless you'd like to suggest that the recasters are also shoplifting the originals from stores and breaking into FW to get their hands on stuff? Even then, that would be a separate offense.

And I get painted with stating "hyperbole".

We are getting suspiciously in the realm similar to software copying violations.
I found it interesting looking up in the past that I could be penalized worse copying than breaking in a home and stealing the program.

It can be easy to be caught comparing relative offenses that are distinct in how they are categorized and enforced.
Yep, in the letter of the law theft and counterfeiting are treated in their own categories but recasting is against the law (civil initially) and could be a felony (more than 10 copies or cost over $2500).
100% correct that terms of law have to be very exacting.
I think I am saying you are choosing to be nitpicky, more helpful would be pointing out that there may be some legal violation but enforcement may be difficult in the extreme.

It's just the same old hyperbole that's trotted out whenever the subject comes up. I've seen many interesting arguments about the nature of IP protection, whether it actually achieved what was intended, how attitude towards IP law varies in different cultures etc.. There's much of interest to discuss, much isn't clear or cut and dried. But inevitably people just throw themselves around using the wrong terms because they're more emotive.

I am not sure a point is being made here other than a perceived use of "wrong terms" and being dismissive.
The Berne Convention removes a bit of that "latitude" you are mentioning but any non-member (significantly China) does add some to grey-zone to this.
I would not be so quick to dismiss it all as amounting to "hysteria" when private citizens and companies are willing to spend thousands to protect their income: a lot of money is at stake.
GW's suit against Chapterhouse was mentioned specifically in their yearly financial report of being a significant drain on their finances and those guys were not even copying.
At the very least ,making a stand against those "lawless foreigners snatching food from local families" should be enough (I think that was more in the "emotive' realm).

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

I think you're conflating it because you're close to the topic. Calling it theft instead of the correct, legal term of "Copyright Infringement" is done to evoke an emotional/moral response. The sad fact is that companies like Disney have taken trademark and copyright to such an extreme that they can continue to make money on something for decades after the death of the artist. It benefits the company, not the artist. If they call it theft, then people will stop and say, "Well, stealing is wrong." but if they call it copyright infringement, they're less likely to get that instinctual emotional response based upon local mores. Calling it theft is also a deft way to attempt to avoid such gray areas as "fair use."

Ask yourself, how long has the concept of copyright been around and how long as theft been around. I remember recording songs off of the radio with my boombox when I was a kid; I suppose I was stealing then....oh wait, SOPA/PIPA didn't exist then.

It seems pretty silly to compare even the likes of GW to a behemoth like Disney. Most game manufacturers are tiny, tiny companies and "copyright infringement" of their IP means loss of real dollars to their business and their livelihood. I call that "theft".

Getting into a semantic pretzel in order to differentiate theft from copyright infringement seems needlessly pedantic when for this discussion about model miniatures the end result is essentially the same: unauthorized copies of models redistribute monies from the model creator to the recaster in a manner that is in most cases ethically questionable.

And regarding your boom box example, I used to do that too. I also sometimes went out and bought the single (ah... cassette tapes!) because I wanted the non-radio edit version of a song. But for the songs that I recorded and didn't buy, yeah, I was kinda stealing those songs. You were too. Shall I meet you in the town circle for our long overdue floggings?

I am unaware that I made a comparison, I simply pointed out that the current copyright and trademark laws are due to the efforts of those behemoths like Disney; small companies like GW just get to reap the benefits.

I won't get into an ethics/morality conversation because such a conversation would be completely subjective so I'll stand on my original point that according to the laws of my nation and state where I live, my purchase of recast products is most certainly not illegal. Since the laws of the land are meant to reflect the overall morality of the citizenry, I can only assume that the majority of my fellow citizens feel the same way whereas New York's population feels differently.

We'll have to check the whip prior to the distributions to ensure it's not made in China.

p.s. on a somewhat related note, did anyone see the new Chinese company, "Uncle Martian" that is a blatant ripoff of under armour?

 Stevefamine wrote:

It's extremely hard to actually get epic models

Sort of. Some stuff like Tau are near impossible to find, others like 'Nids and some Eldar are merely ridiculously expensive but Orks, Marines etc are still fairly easy to get via Ebay for a few £. This may well be different in the US.

 Talizvar wrote:
If you are thinking of GW, see if their newly revived specialist games group does anything. (Holding breath is optional).
Other more pure art I have seen this quite often usually when the artist was "digging around in the back".

Allegedly all the Epic molds were destroyed, including the FW ones, and I doubt that GW would reuse them anyway.

I can't think of a single example with this happening in wargaming, I'm sure it has happened, but its hardly a common occurrence. OOP tends to mean that the mold is too worn to replace, the company has gone tits up or the sculpt has been replaced.

 agnosto wrote:

p.s. on a somewhat related note, did anyone see the new Chinese company, "Uncle Martian" that is a blatant ripoff of under armour?

Well, then.

Basimpo wrote:
If you paid me $100 dollars to recast you a shoulderpad 100 times I would profit about 80 bucks. You must never ever have recast anything, or anything with precision, or you have sloppy technique or something. Mold 1 shoulder pad. Cast it 10 times. Mold those 10 casts, cast ast that
9 times. Beck it wouldn't even take more than a couple hours.

You seem to be at the entry level of press mold casting / just starting out. it's okay, but don't add to the discussion if you do not understand casting. Thats on par with commenting on NMM techniques if you can barely drybrush/wash. You just made two molds to make a mold of 10 without QC. Why would you make two molds? Recast a recast bit x10 times? I don't even


You would purchase an original 10, build lego/box, then setup a sprue inj and calc silicone. Wait a day for the silicone to dry, attempt a cast - sit, check molds, toss 3-4 of the shoulder pads if you used a cheap a/b that dries in a minute, hopefully you vibrated out the bubbles and get a solid 10 shoulder pads off your sprue. Clean mold, go again.

Can you quickly calculate the cost of the setup to start casting at a FW quality?

- http://www.alumilite.com/ - solid product
- http://www.hirstarts.com/casting/advanced.html / cheap vibrating table
- Pressure Pot
- Ventilation/system (you can find a few cheap setups)





Nice... setup you have there... Basimpo. From your Gallery



With the FW Tau example above, a friend of mine easily put in $1000 USD for a solid force this past winter. It looks great - we only recasted a few turrets/missile pods. Extremely hard to duplicate the Devilfish and we were unable to at a FW high quality

 agnosto wrote:
Copying does two things. 1. It encourages competition; look at the generic drug market for how this works.

No.
Wife works for generic drug company with the active ingredients.
Direct copying of the self-same formulation is not allowed, period.
Creating a similar activating outcome with different concentrations or different ingredients is the only way it is allowed.

2. It encourages constant innovation.

No.
Why spend all that money for R&D if some turkey copies it within weeks?
How do you get that time and money back other than selling your product?
Why bother?

I own recasts from China and originals from forgeworld and have found the recasts to be higher quality casts with less remedial work needed. GW loses money to recasters, invests money in new production facilities.

I missed seeing any evidence of this fact.(of new facilities made to combat this)

The result is a higher quality original product. If a recaster can improve on your design, you're doing something wrong.

Innovation out of thin air is one thing.
Cleaning up and improving on a manufacturing process can be easy if the cost and time is justified for the tooling.
I think a recaster has a bit less overhead to pay for.

If you go out of business because you can't compete with people recasting your product, you're doing something wrong (business model, pricing structure, etc.)

Most companies do not expect to compete against their own product.
Not in any business plan I know.
Getting a bunch of guys in a 2nd or 3rd world country pounding out recasts in their back yard OR a company in China that tools-up a nice die and pounds them out are each difficult to compete against.
Lately, our greatest competitive advantage is the innovation and creative development and copying completely bypasses the payment for those efforts.

I buy the highest quality and lowest priced product that I can with my money because it's my money and as long as I'm not breaking any laws, nobody gets to tell me how to spend my money.

I guess the real question is: "do you know for sure you are not breaking any laws"?
You at least have given a valid answer to the OP that you do not care if you buy a recast.

Recasting is not an issue of theft. It is one of duplication. As a consumer, I generally believe that when you buy something commercially, you've bought everything relating to the item, and have every moral right to duplicate it for personal use if you wish. Generally speaking, it's not of anyone else's business what I do in my shed with my own legally purchased property but my own.

I do accept that there are times that it is in the public interest for the Government to intervene (so drugs manufacture for example). And I do accept that in certain fields, the concept of intellectual property is required to ensure that innovation can continue (medicine, for example).

When it comes to commerical recasters though, I personally, do not care if others infringe on GW's intellectual property. Why?

Because I feel that Games Workshop is quite frankly a gang of IP criminals no better than the recasters. Their actions throughout the Chapterhouse debacle with regards to trying to retroactively claim intellectual possession of artworks by fooling artists into signing them away, declaring they never took any influence from anyone (Starship Troopers, Alien and Terminator would like a word), and trying to stake a claim to owning the concept of a 'grenade launcher' and 'halberd' made me lose whatever respect I might have had for GW's claim to intellectual property rights. I mean, Christ, the Spots the Space Marine debacle ring a bell? Roman numerals? Also apparently invented by GW, especially when applied to a shape!

So yes, when I hear of serial intellectual property infringers having their intellectual property infringed upon, I find I can bear it with remarkable equinamity. I don't believe in an eye for an eye when something physically harmful like violence is involved, but this feels more akin to watching the bloke nicking a telly getting home after selling it at the pawn shop, finding someone swiped his box, and complaining loudly about it. The response in both cases is, 'Who really cares?' Much like the title of the thread.

But that's just my view.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
No. Because recasting isn't theft. It is, as has already been discussed, copyright violation. It isn't even counterfeiting unless the seller is passing the recasts off as originals, it isn't theft because the recasts aren't taken from anyone - unless you'd like to suggest that the recasters are also shoplifting the originals from stores and breaking into FW to get their hands on stuff? Even then, that would be a separate offense.

And I get painted with stating "hyperbole".

Yep. I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was outlining the situation that would need to exist for it to be actual theft. If that seems hyperbolic to you, then perhaps that should illustrate how far this topic is from actual theft.

We are getting suspiciously in the realm similar to software copying violations.

That's because, in broad, layperson terms, they're very similar.

I found it interesting looking up in the past that I could be penalized worse copying than breaking in a home and stealing the program.

Financially maybe, and I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but I'm pretty sure the scope of a copyright infringement operation would have to be massive to carry a jail term, whereas one break in would probably do it.

It can be easy to be caught comparing relative offenses that are distinct in how they are categorized and enforced.
Yep, in the letter of the law theft and counterfeiting are treated in their own categories but recasting is against the law (civil initially) and could be a felony (more than 10 copies or cost over $2500).

In Canada maybe, but China, the U.K. etc will have different lines in the sand on that. While I don't know exactly how true it is personally, it seems to be widely understood that the Chinese government have little to no interest in enforcing these laws at all, making it largely irrelevant to your average enterprising recaster.

100% correct that terms of law have to be very exacting.
I think I am saying you are choosing to be nitpicky, more helpful would be pointing out that there may be some legal violation but enforcement may be difficult in the extreme.

No, I'm pulling people up on the use of terms that experience has taught me are used for their emotive content. I couldn't give a monkeys for legal accuracy except where it skews the discussion. As Agnosto has already said "it's copyright infringement" carries a lot less emotive weight than "it's theft" and in the interest of balanced discussion we need to be clear about what we're discussing.

It's just the same old hyperbole that's trotted out whenever the subject comes up. I've seen many interesting arguments about the nature of IP protection, whether it actually achieved what was intended, how attitude towards IP law varies in different cultures etc.. There's much of interest to discuss, much isn't clear or cut and dried. But inevitably people just throw themselves around using the wrong terms because they're more emotive.

I am not sure a point is being made here other than a perceived use of "wrong terms" and being dismissive.
The Berne Convention removes a bit of that "latitude" you are mentioning but any non-member (significantly China) does add some to grey-zone to this.
I would not be so quick to dismiss it all as amounting to "hysteria" when private citizens and companies are willing to spend thousands to protect their income: a lot of money is at stake.
GW's suit against Chapterhouse was mentioned specifically in their yearly financial report of being a significant drain on their finances and those guys were not even copying.
At the very least ,making a stand against those "lawless foreigners snatching food from local families" should be enough (I think that was more in the "emotive' realm).

The CHS suit was a clusterfeth, it is barely relevant to the topic and serves to illustrate how copyright law can be abused far more than any sort of example of how desperate companies are to protect their works. It's also a good illustration of GW's hubris and ignorance.

Given that there's already a question over whether what GW makes is "sculpture" or merely "toys" then the Berne Convention may not really quite cover it. I'm not intimately familiar with the whole thing, but the definition of "creative works" in the UK that the convention covers doesn't automatically apply if they're considered toys. Interesting idea for discussion though.

 Stevefamine wrote:

Basimpo wrote:
If you paid me $100 dollars to recast you a shoulderpad 100 times I would profit about 80 bucks. You must never ever have recast anything, or anything with precision, or you have sloppy technique or something. Mold 1 shoulder pad. Cast it 10 times. Mold those 10 casts, cast ast that
9 times. Beck it wouldn't even take more than a couple hours.

You seem to be at the entry level of press mold casting / just starting out. it's okay, but don't add to the discussion if you do not understand casting. Thats on par with commenting on NMM techniques if you can barely drybrush/wash. You just made two molds to make a mold of 10 without QC. Why would you make two molds? Recast a recast bit x10 times? I don't even


You would purchase an original 10, build lego/box, then setup a sprue inj and calc silicone. Wait a day for the silicone to dry, attempt a cast - sit, check molds, toss 3-4 of the shoulder pads if you used a cheap a/b that dries in a minute, hopefully you vibrated out the bubbles and get a solid 10 shoulder pads off your sprue. Clean mold, go again.

Can you quickly calculate the cost of the setup to start casting at a FW quality?

- http://www.alumilite.com/ - solid product
- http://www.hirstarts.com/casting/advanced.html / cheap vibrating table
- Pressure Pot
- Ventilation/system (you can find a few cheap setups)





Nice... setup you have there... Basimpo. From your Gallery



With the FW Tau example above, a friend of mine easily put in $1000 USD for a solid force this past winter. It looks great - we only recasted a few turrets/missile pods. Extremely hard to duplicate the Devilfish and we were unable to at a FW high quality

Heh, good pic from when I started back in the day. How about you pm me and I'll send you a link to what I'm capable of now.

You really have no clue, especially if you're using alumilite. Smooth on supplies FW with their resin. If I sent you a box of fw originals and my recasts you'd have no way of telling which is which.

Actually, go to my post in the dakka swap shop and check out the picture link, in that library is stuff I'm not selling.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would you buy a vibrating table? It's unnecessary for silicone rubber and resin. you need a vacuum chamber to degas the rubber and a pressure pot to degas the resin. That's it. You're comparing hirst arts mold that use dehydrated rock powder essentially

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.

You're supposed to buy the shoulder pads you need, of course.

For $100 I could cast probably 60 full iron hands fw models btw. Is that fast enough calculation for you?

 privateer4hire wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.

You're supposed to buy the shoulder pads you need, of course.

You missed 2 pages of back and forth on that topic, I see.

I agree with you, of course.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.
.

But as said earlier, it is literally impossible for me to get the amount I need.

Not impossible because Overkill is still in production. And even if you didn't have to spend $165 for each copy to get the one shoulder pad, people are selling the model separately for about $10/white scar biker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.

You're supposed to buy the shoulder pads you need, of course.

You missed 2 pages of back and forth on that topic, I see.

I agree with you, of course.

Looks like.

 agnosto wrote:

I am unaware that I made a comparison, I simply pointed out that the current copyright and trademark laws are due to the efforts of those behemoths like Disney; small companies like GW just get to reap the benefits

Perhaps I misunderstood your point but I thought you were arguing that large corporations have obfuscated the law with the use of terminology like "copyright infringement" as a way to benefit their own holdings. I would understand where you are coming from if this were a discussion about whether or not Mickey Mouse should be public domain, but since we are talking about what happens when a knock-off Warhound titan is sold it seems entirely inappropriate to the discussion at hand, or that you were making a comparison about Disney's practices as related to GW.

I'd argue most of the models people buy recasts of are current production pieces that they can't or won't pay the retail price for. So, for the 40k crowd essentially all of FW's catalog. The lost sales due to copyright infringement represent money taken out of FW's pockets. Certainly some of those buyers would never have bought those models at retail, but even if a handful would have but opt not to because cheaper knock-offs are available, then those are sales stolen from the rightful holder of the IP. Call it copyright infringement or theft, the end result remains the same: someone who did nothing to create a desired object profits from that object and the creator gets nothing for their effort.

 Talizvar wrote:
I guess the real question is: "do you know for sure you are not breaking any laws"?
You at least have given a valid answer to the OP that you do not care if you buy a recast.

I won't answer the rest because it's all opinion. Sure, we could split hairs about "similar activating outcomes" but when I'm in CVS and they have their brand of whatever next to the major producer of whatever, the ingredient list is often exactly the same. I'm sure your wife knows the particulars of how they can get away with that better than I ever could though so I'll just not comment further.

As for whether I am breaking a law or not, I'll refer you to the department of justice who clearly state that I am not. Further, you can check out the National Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center (https://www.iprcenter.gov/). All of the investigations and arrests are related to "trafficking" rather than purchase and/or ownership of counterfeit goods; in alignment with what the DoJ has stated. I've researched the matter locally and there are no laws in my state or municipality related to the purchase/ownership of counterfeit goods. Not being an attorney, of course I'm not 100% certain of my legal status but I have performed "reasonable and prudent" due diligence in the matter.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. ..

I feel that it should be pointed out that 'I want it!' does not mean 'I need to have it!'.

You won't die without those shoulder pads.You had other options - You could have sourced them from eBay. You could have hand-painted the symbol. You could have used decals. You could have used the Forgeworld version. You could have chosen a different chapter, for which you could get shoulder pads. You could have made a pressmould of your chapter badge and made your own. You could have had a custom shoulder pad made. You could have simply put the army aside until GW made the pads available again.


All of those are options, whether you like them or not. You chose to resort to recastes. You didn't have to.

Basimpo,

I recast terrain primarily and extremely large 8" models at times as well - I vibrate the resin after mix before I pour it. Vac is also a must - you are correct. I really like the vibrating for the 1-2% bubble reduction I seem to be getting.

I linked alumnite since it's a quick recast/mid tier resin. I like some of their products. Recasting a PP garg worked well with them, but Smoothon is great for 6-28mm and I've used them quite a bit.

It's a 1 in 10,000 chance you'd actually know what you were doing, and I just saw your picture in the gallery and went "oh no". I just assumed you posted before thinking


Edit:

Basimpo wrote:
For $100 I could cast probably 60 full iron hands fw models btw. Is that fast enough calculation for you?

It would take me a few weeks of casting after work and yes - it would probably be less to cast. That is still solid chunk of time to do that.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Given that there's already a question over whether what GW makes is "sculpture" or merely "toys" then the Berne Convention may not really quite cover it. I'm not intimately familiar with the whole thing, but the definition of "creative works" in the UK that the convention covers doesn't automatically apply if they're considered toys. Interesting idea for discussion though.

You do make the point clearly that "the devil is in the details".
I appreciate the direct responses, I may not agree with all of them, but the reasoning for them are clear.
Well done.
I had a few creations of mine copied without permission, so that can elicit an emotional response with me in that regard, hence my position.
Legally it is NOT theft I agree, I still have what I made... but to lose control of it into the world feels more a violation than a pure loss of income.
What gets further maddening is when it is misrepresented as another's work which we are not discussing here.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. ..

I feel that it should be pointed out that 'I want it!' does not mean 'I need to have it!'.

You won't die without those shoulder pads.You had other options - You could have sourced them from eBay. You could have hand-painted the symbol. You could have used decals. You could have used the Forgeworld version. You could have chosen a different chapter, for which you could get shoulder pads. You could have made a pressmould of your chapter badge and made your own. You could have had a custom shoulder pad made. You could have simply put the army aside until GW made the pads available again.


All of those are options, whether you like them or not. You chose to resort to recastes. You didn't have to.

Wait, isnt making a press mold the exact same as everything else, cause that is what im doing. Im pressing the symbol up against my models shoulders.

lol @ hotsauceman

Google Greenstuff Pressmolding

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. ..

I feel that it should be pointed out that 'I want it!' does not mean 'I need to have it!'.

You won't die without those shoulder pads.You had other options - You could have sourced them from eBay. You could have hand-painted the symbol. You could have used decals. You could have used the Forgeworld version. You could have chosen a different chapter, for which you could get shoulder pads. You could have made a pressmould of your chapter badge and made your own. You could have had a custom shoulder pad made. You could have simply put the army aside until GW made the pads available again.


All of those are options, whether you like them or not. You chose to resort to recastes. You didn't have to.

Wait, isnt making a press mold the exact same as everything else, cause that is what im doing. Im pressing the symbol up against my models shoulders.

Jesus fething Christ...

If you could explain yourself in a fething coherent sentence, this misunderstanding would not have happened.

Tell me you have given up on teaching.

But how is it now OK? im still making counterfeit shoulderpads aint I? Im taking the symbol and making my own.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

I am unaware that I made a comparison, I simply pointed out that the current copyright and trademark laws are due to the efforts of those behemoths like Disney; small companies like GW just get to reap the benefits

Perhaps I misunderstood your point but I thought you were arguing that large corporations have obfuscated the law with the use of terminology like "copyright infringement" as a way to benefit their own holdings. I would understand where you are coming from if this were a discussion about whether or not Mickey Mouse should be public domain, but since we are talking about what happens when a knock-off Warhound titan is sold it seems entirely inappropriate to the discussion at hand, or that you were making a comparison about Disney's practices as related to GW.

I'd argue most of the models people buy recasts of are current production pieces that they can't or won't pay the retail price for. So, for the 40k crowd essentially all of FW's catalog. The lost sales due to copyright infringement represent money taken out of FW's pockets. Certainly some of those buyers would never have bought those models at retail, but even if a handful would have but opt not to because cheaper knock-offs are available, then those are sales stolen from the rightful holder of the IP. Call it copyright infringement or theft, the end result remains the same: someone who did nothing to create a desired object profits from that object and the creator gets nothing for their effort.

No worries, I don't always express myself well when writing; I can be a bit scatterbrained and jump between thoughts so thanks for hanging with me enough to hold a conversation.

I would rather say that companies (large and small) conflate or attempt to create linkages between such concepts as copyright infringement and theft because it benefits them to do so. On the legal front, I would say that current juris prudence in the matter was spearheaded by companies, Disney in particular, so that they are able to create a source of income that exceeds the previous limitations of copyright law. Even though large companies forged the path, smaller companies like GW benefit from the results of having an extraordinarily long period of ownership of their intellectual properties. In that way, the two are related as they are both companies that benefit from copyright protection under various laws.

So that's my take on the "copyright vs. theft" discussion.

The other matters are either legal or moral/ethical. I feel that I've covered my thoughts on the legal angle pretty well and I don't really want to address morals and ethics because such things are subjective, depending upon where you live in the world, the culture you were brought-up in, and personal bias on the topic.

For me this debate breaks down into two things. Legal and economics. Is what I'm doing illegal? and What benefits me economically?

I'll readily admit that I'm selfish. I care about as much for how a faceless person who works for GW earns their living about as much as they care about how I earn mine. I won't actively seek their ruin but neither will I shed a tear if they live on the street. That may seem cold but as my father would say, "I didn't take you to raise."

I like GW, I even own GW stock; that said, I think their prices on certain things are asininely high and for no other reason than, "because." I have no problem paying a reasonable price for a reasonable product but the FW prices are beyond what I consider reasonable (YMMV) so I have purchased certain items from GW and other items from the most reasonably priced source in others. Sure, I could live without these items, as noted in parallel conversations on this topic, I won't if I don't have to. Again, I'm a selfish person and though I may possess more than enough funds to purchase whatever I wish from GW/FW, I believe some items to be priced beyond at which I value them. Had these items been more reasonable (again in my own subjective calculation), I would not hesitate to purchase the originals.

I know that you and others may object to my reasoning on multiple levels but please realize that I am entirely unapologetic nor am I attempting to reason my way through some existential morality play; I'm simply expressing my thoughts on the topic. With that said, please feel free to disagree all that you like; we can have a friendly conversation (and we have so far) on a potentially contentious topic; in fact, sometimes these can be the most thought provoking and enjoyable.

Cheers!

My take is its capitalism and free market.

If GW was reasonably pricing their products there would be no need for a recast market.

However GW has decided that all their miniatures are in effect "collectors" items and in general massively overpriced compared to most other similar products on the market.

I personally have only bought 1 single book from a game store at full GW MSRP just to support that store in years.

Pretty much second hand or other avenues are the best ways to buy GW products anymore and even then only at a very steep discount are the prices even reasonable.

There is a reason GW has suffered poor sales for the last 2 years...its called completely pricing themselves out of the market.

So no I personally have no issue with recasts, I feel if anything it will help/make/force GW to become a better company or go out of business.

You will also find recasting is much more limited or almost non-existent for other game systems.....as its not profitable for the recaster because they price their product lines more competitively .

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But how is it now OK? im still making counterfeit shoulderpads aint I? Im taking the symbol and making my own.

Yes and no. Duplicating parts of components as opposed to duplicating complete things is viewed differently by the law. Casting the entire shoulder pads might potentially be an issue, even though they're a part of a larger kit, as GW have also sold them on their own... but making greenstuff pressmoulds of specific details is much more of a grey area, and is something that GW have themselves provided tutorials for in the past, so would be hard for them to claim it's bad for their business.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos45 wrote:

However GW has decided that all their miniatures are in effect "collectors" items and in general massively overpriced compared to most other similar products on the market. .

And that is entirely their right as the owner of those products. A right that is backed up by the laws of most (if not all) western countries.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I will guiltily admit to buying recast from time to time. Or at least I did back when I was more avidly collecting. Frankly it was just too good to pass off when you wanted volume. I would still buy FW direct quite often as well, but if you wanted 30 mkIV back in the pre-plastic days then it was really, really tough to turn down a 50% + discount for really well done recasts.

I am not sure I would go do it again now a few years later, but a thriving recast market is the result of prices out of reach for many of the people wanting to play. Vicious circle. I would say although I cannot expect GW or FW to lower their prices per unit, they do seem to be moving in the direction of volume discounts and to me that is a very smart move.

This is kind of the way I see recasting. For filling out volumes of GW models, it can be pretty expensive; and when it comes to stretching your [insert currency here] as far as it can go, choosing whether to pay X for a single unit or paying X for 2-3 units.

One of the things I try to do to stretch my money is to buy recast bits. For my Necron Immortals/Deathmarks, I bought recasts of the front torso bit and the spine bits. I would eBay the plastic spine bits and buy plastic legs with those funds. In the end, I would be able to end up with 5 Immortals and 5 Deathmarks for only $30, and use all the bits in the kit. And when I wanted to do some conversions or scenery, I would get recast bits to do those. I could have easily made green stuff molds and done press casts, but for the amount of time that I would have put into making and casting everything, especially 2 part molds, it was easier to get some recast bits.

My other GW recasts are of the Necron characters. After going through 4 failcast Zahndrekhs and getting replacements from GW and them finally refusing to send me anymore, I just gave up and got a recast one. I only had to buy 1.

As to OOP miniatures, for me it varies on why they are OOP. Limited Run miniatures are designed to run out, so I try to avoid buying any. Dead companies such as Rackham or the Illyad miniatures I see as fair game. To me, it can mean spending $20 for 3 recast Ira Tenebrae to use in a RPG game or spending $95 for 3 of them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rackham-Confrontation-Ira-Tenebrae-/262385823808?hash=item3d1769f040:g:1E8AAOSwUUdXDsgE. If Rackham was still around, or if CMON would actually do something with the IP, I would buy from them.

For the most part, I avoid buying recasts of other miniature companies. Reaper, Dark Sword, Kromlech, Secret Weapons, Micro Arts Studio: all of these companies produce good quality mini's and materials at fair prices, and I'm happy to support them with my money.