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Martel732 wrote:
[I've faced 5 stimtides with BA before. Why would they bother with anything else?

Cuz Broadsides are cool and they need an AA gun? Or cuz they want a Skyray? Its not like the Riptide is the only good thing in that slot.

Also how the hell where they getting 5 Stimtides in that list? Double CADs?

Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Also, taking a quick look at what you consider "plenty" of AT, itso really quite low, especially if you're firing snap shots with those multi meltas.

The core of my army is:

A chaplain
A captain with power fist
2 devastator squads (each of whom have 4 missile launchers, which can glance landraiders on 6s)
2 assault squads (each of which has melta bombs)
6 tactical squads (which has 3 plasma cannons, which can damage AV 13 and lower, a plasma gun with melta bomb (I'm considering switching this out for a lascannon), and 2 multimeltas with meltabombs)

If that's not enough anti-tank to deal with your list, then your list needs to change, not mine.

If you're relying on krak missiles to bring down Land Raiders, I'm sorry mate, but your list is NOT TAC.
Plasma cannons are regarded as generally bad in nearly all aspects.
How are the multimeltas moving up to engage targets?

All in all - it's a decent fluff based battle company, but as you say later "my point had nothing to do with the fluff". So, considering you want your list to "do stuff" (what that stuff is still evades me), unless that stuff is look pretty and fail at every intended battlefield role due to a misguided definition of TAC, then your list is simply not TAC.

Honestly, you need to adapt your tactics, not focus on one list and demand that EVERY ONE ELSE conform to your wants. If you demand that I change how I play, why can't I demand you at least bring a decent lost so I don't need to completely gut my army and fill it with shield drone squads/kroot/vespids/hammerheads?

I don't demand that you change your list. See the OP. I'd simply refuse to play you in the first place. No Tau Need Apply.

Fine. Due to your failure to clarify "stuff", I declare Space Marines to be anti-whatever-I-want. No games from me.

Do you honestly not realise how bad alienating an entire faction and player base from the game is? Or are you so utterly selfish that their wants don't matter to you?

Also, how is your list "TAC" if you can't deal with one measly riptide?

You mean, the jump monstrous creature with the 72 inch range gun, 2+ armor save and a ridiculous invuln?

I stand by my initial claim: No Tau Need Apply.

Yes the monstrous creature that can't capture objectives and can be tarpitted with a relatively mobile unit. And it's "ridiculous invuln" only occurs if it can pass a 3+ roll and risk losing a wound if it fails. So, not a guaranteed

I echo my point on your intolerance of Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Who says it's mainly spectacle based?

Are your models painted?

How on Terra does that matter?
I'll let you guess, and I'll tell you once I know why it matters.

TS's Land Raider list makes perfect sense on Tallarn, with the irradiated winds picking up and scouring the paint from the mighty engines of war. You might not like this, but Normandy in Space is not the only way to play the game. Vietnam in Space, or Charge of the Light Brigade in Space are also things. You're not always right.

My point had nothing to do with fluff. It has everything to do with STUFF HAPPENS or not.

So, fluff is irrelevant? So why have you claimed in the past about your Space Marines being outshot by Tau or Imperial Guard barrages killing your centuries old veterans if the fluff is irrelevant? Because artillery is a rather spectacular thing, and was CERTAINLY present in the Normandy invasions. As was soldiers being cut down as they stormed up - that's a spectacle.

I fail to see the difference between you handicapping the game for your friend and this. We're trying (and mostly succeeding) to have an entertaining game, and you're ruining it by enforcing illegal hard caps and stopping people from doing as they want (FSE Crisis suits)
How are we then not justified to kick you out in the same way?

You must certainly are. If there is a game group which derives its fun primarily from being powergaming WAAC TFGs, then by all means, they can and should exclude people who aren't like that.

And people like me can and should exclude powergamers.

It runs both ways.

That said, I once again wish to point out:

As of 6th edition, 40k is dying. Seriously consider that point.

Glad to see you finally acknowledge other groups who might enjoy something else other than what you like. Maybe we might get somewhere.
And I'm well aware. I've been playing far before 6th. But alienating an entire playerbase would be far worse than anything GW has pulled. That would be toxic.

So, if Guard and SM can have multiple lists, why can't Tau? Are they too broken beyond belief to be played? As a regular oponent of a Tau player, I disagree. And I still maintain my point - L2P against Riptides.

It has nothing to do with being OP or not OP. Tau are inherently unfun to play against. They're a one trick pony that rely entirely on shenanigans.

No thanks.

Inherently unfun? Jeez, I guess all the fun I had playing against those Tau was all a fluke. Glad to see that Traditio can come and tell me how to have fun.
I guess you've never played against a CQB Tau list yet, have you? I would take pleasure in playing you with a Tau list with no main Ranged Support and simply using Breachers and a CC Crisis Team. Or would that be too one-trick pony and shenaniganny for you? (Even though I still can't figure out what possible shenanigans would feature in this list)

Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Also, taking a quick look at what you consider "plenty" of AT, itso really quite low, especially if you're firing snap shots with those multi meltas.

The core of my army is:

A chaplain
A captain with power fist
2 devastator squads (each of whom have 4 missile launchers, which can glance landraiders on 6s)
2 assault squads (each of which has melta bombs)
6 tactical squads (which has 3 plasma cannons, which can damage AV 13 and lower, a plasma gun with melta bomb (I'm considering switching this out for a lascannon), and 2 multimeltas with meltabombs)

If that's not enough anti-tank to deal with your list, then your list needs to change, not mine.

Honestly, you need to adapt your tactics, not focus on one list and demand that EVERY ONE ELSE conform to your wants. If you demand that I change how I play, why can't I demand you at least bring a decent lost so I don't need to completely gut my army and fill it with shield drone squads/kroot/vespids/hammerheads?

I don't demand that you change your list. See the OP. I'd simply refuse to play you in the first place. No Tau Need Apply.

Also, how is your list "TAC" if you can't deal with one measly riptide?

You mean, the jump monstrous creature with the 72 inch range gun, 2+ armor save and a ridiculous invuln?

I stand by my initial claim: No Tau Need Apply.

You have 4 meltas bombs, and ONE powerfist, on squads that probably won't make it to melee range because they're fairly easily killed or avoided (even with 10 man squad sizes since for a minimum of 2 turn they'll be unable to assault and in the open.)

You're ONLY other significant AT is on platforms that MUST stand still or fire on snapshots (or not at all for the plas cannons). If you fire all the MLs at one target, you might get something done, but 8 S8 shots on T4 marines are pretty easy to either kill or just ignore, and when killed make points back for the killer very quickly. Your only methods of taking down AV14 are either VERY lucky melta bombs, or glances through melee (very hard to get there in the first place) or extremely squishy infantry with multi meltas that either need to snap shot, or hope it wanders within 12". Outside of that you either have ONE (iirc) krak nade throw per squad at 8", and ONE plasmagun (which can hardly be considered AT) for mobile firepower.

I fail to see how that makes it a TAC list. If your opponent brings free razorback instead of rhinos, you're boned pretty much straight off. He'd simply have too much armor for you to deal with because you made a terrible army comp. If you literally swapped the multimeltas for meltaguns you'd get a mobile 18" threat bubble vs tanks instead of a static 24" bubble, use any points saved to pick up REAL anti tank/MC/TEQ/etc weapons (i.e. grav cannon here or there, perhaps a predator with tri-las, even a vindicator would be better than snap shots with a multimelta)

But wait, that'd be shenanigans right? Can't have any of that!

So, your solution instead of figuring out a way to fight the big nasty riptide/flying hive tyrant/wraithknight/flyer/more than 1 or 2 tanks/anything but infantry on foot is to simply bury your head in the sand and cry that everyone else is WAAC TFGs? Got it.

Also is it a blanket ban on tau, no matter what I bring?

Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Also, taking a quick look at what you consider "plenty" of AT, itso really quite low, especially if you're firing snap shots with those multi meltas.

The core of my army is:

A chaplain
A captain with power fist
2 devastator squads (each of whom have 4 missile launchers, which can glance landraiders on 6s)
2 assault squads (each of which has melta bombs)
6 tactical squads (which has 3 plasma cannons, which can damage AV 13 and lower, a plasma gun with melta bomb (I'm considering switching this out for a lascannon), and 2 multimeltas with meltabombs)

If that's not enough anti-tank to deal with your list, then your list needs to change, not mine.

Your scrub anti-empowerment, and anti-enablement tirades are tiresome. You p, your attitudes, and your lists are as much to blame, and are the root cause of almost all of your problems.

The one constant in the universe is change. The wise adapt.

Traditio wrote:

Honestly, you need to adapt your tactics, not focus on one list and demand that EVERY ONE ELSE conform to your wants. If you demand that I change how I play, why can't I demand you at least bring a decent lost so I don't need to completely gut my army and fill it with shield drone squads/kroot/vespids/hammerheads?

I don't demand that you change your list. See the OP. I'd simply refuse to play you in the first place. No Tau Need Apply.
.

Real mature... Throw your toys out of the pram too, why don't you?

Or you know... L2p. Step out of that scrub mentality. All those things that you decry are just other ways, and other options of exploring the game, and they're all just as valid as tools for 'fun'. You are the only one standing in your way.

Traditio wrote:

Also, how is your list "TAC" if you can't deal with one measly riptide?

You mean, the jump monstrous creature with the 72 inch range gun, 2+ armor save and a ridiculous invuln?

There's one of them. Which has every chance of blowing itself up chasing that invulnerable. And Bloody hell man, people have listed loads of ways of running them to ground and taking them out. The fact you refuse to empower yourself, enable yourself and use the entirely valid options to solve your problems is entirely a problem of your own making, and has nothing to do with the riptide.

Traditio wrote:

I stand by my initial claim: No Tau Need Apply.

Lol. This may surprise you but plenty people have fun playing with, and against tau. Take those blinkers down.

Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Who says it's mainly spectacle based?

Are your models painted?

Doesn't answer the question, and 'stuff happens' is so nebulous as to be utterly pointless as a metric.

Traditio wrote:

TS's Land Raider list makes perfect sense on Tallarn, with the irradiated winds picking up and scouring the paint from the mighty engines of war. You might not like this, but Normandy in Space is not the only way to play the game. Vietnam in Space, or Charge of the Light Brigade in Space are also things. You're not always right.

My point had nothing to do with fluff. It has everything to do with STUFF HAPPENS or not.

Stuff happens in tank duels too, or didn't you know? 'Normandy in space' isn't the sum total of what 40k styles itself to be.

And if your point has nothing to do with fluff, it is irrelevant. Fluff is the cornerstone of this hobby.

Traditio wrote:

I fail to see the difference between you handicapping the game for your friend and this. We're trying (and mostly succeeding) to have an entertaining game, and you're ruining it by enforcing illegal hard caps and stopping people from doing as they want (FSE Crisis suits)

There's nothing "illegal" about it. There's nothing in the rulebook which says that you have to run 8 landraiders in a 2000 points game.

By that same token, There is nothing in the rulebook which says you have to force yourself to a single limited marine build either.

There is nothing in the rulebook either than enforces your sanctimonious view of what defines fun,

Traditio wrote:

How are we then not justified to kick you out in the same way?

You most certainly are. If there is a game group which derives its fun primarily from being powergaming WAAC TFGs, then by all means, they can and should exclude people who aren't like that.

It's not zero/sum. Just because people don't follow your ridiculous and stupid guidelines, or heavens forbid, maybe they like tanks and Knights, it doesn't make them 'power gaming', 'Waac', or 'tfg'. If anything, your behaviour is the hallmark of a tfg.

Traditio wrote:

And people like me can and should exclude powergamers.
It runs both ways.

There's no 'people like you'. There's just you.

Enjoy the cold. Enjoy your misery. Enjoy being a martyr. In the meantime We'll be having fun with our Knights and riptides, far seers nuking things with psyker powers, word bearers summoning daemons, white scars on bikes and drop podding space marines.

Traditio wrote:

As of 6th edition, 40k is dying. Seriously consider that point.

It's a long way from dying sunshine. A long way. Regardless of the other games out there (which I, and many others play), 40k is still the 600lb gorilla in the room.

Traditio wrote:

So, if Guard and SM can have multiple lists, why can't Tau? Are they too broken beyond belief to be played? As a regular oponent of a
Tau player, I disagree. And I still maintain my point - L2P against Riptides.

It has nothing to do with being OP or not OP. Tau are inherently unfun to play against. They're a one trick pony that rely entirely on shenanigans.
No thanks.

I just don't think you are capable of having fun. They're neither a one trick pony (there's lots of ways of shooting people.) nor are they reliant on shenanigans - they're just tactics that you, in all your spite, arrogance, elitism and small mindedness would rather turn your nose up, rather than man up, figure it out and learn to deal with them.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt Smudge wrote:TS's Land Raider list makes perfect sense on Tallarn, with the irradiated winds picking up and scouring the paint from the mighty engines of war. You might not like this, but Normandy in Space is not the only way to play the game. Vietnam in Space, or Charge of the Light Brigade in Space are also things. You're not always right.

My point had nothing to do with fluff. It has everything to do with STUFF HAPPENS or not.

Hey, if your list can't scratch my underwhelming "I wanted to put as many tanks on the table as possible" list, then you are to blame... Wait, did you just say it has nothing to do with the fluff? Weren't you just complaining about the spectacle? Geez, Traditio. Make up your mind.

Traditio wrote:
If that's not enough anti-tank to deal with your list, then your list needs to change, not mine.

According to you.

I don't demand that you change your list. See the OP. I'd simply refuse to play you in the first place. No Tau Need Apply.

IOW, STOP HAVING FUN WITH TAU I DON'T LIKE TAU BECAUSE ALL TAU PLAYERS ARE TFGS.

My point had nothing to do with fluff. It has everything to do with STUFF HAPPENS or not.

Of course if you don't care about the fluff and don't care about winning I really have to wonder why you're playing 40k. Why don't you just play a different game where "stuff happens"? For example, if you want to reenact Normandy over and over again I hear there are some good WWII miniatures games you could play.

As of 6th edition, 40k is dying. Seriously consider that point.

Yep. And a lot of the reason 40k is dying is because of people like you creating a toxic environment where you're shunned from the community if you don't follow all of their unwritten rules about how to have fun the "right" way.

It has nothing to do with being OP or not OP. Tau are inherently unfun to play against. They're a one trick pony that rely entirely on shenanigans.

Repeatedly stating your ignorance of the Tau does not make your claims true. It just makes you the kind of person that nobody wants to play against.

This thread is the epitome of the tragic side of wargaming. The thread was originally posted by someone who (from what I can tell) simply is stating his own opinion. Sure, Traditio's opinion was... interesting, to say the least, but he does have the right to say it. The thread had the potential to become an interesting, civil "conversation" about the values of warhammer and how it, as a game, should be approached.

Really, guys? Can we just agree to disagree here? Everyone has their own opinion, no matter how ridiculous it seems to others. Traditio - if you want to have a fun, non-competitive game of Space Normandy, then don't partake in Tournaments and games where the objective is to steamroll the opposition in the most humiliating way possible. Tbh, most casual games go by your definition of warhammer, anyway. However, I think it is a bit ridiculous you want people to change THEIR OWN lists, just to make you happy. Do you know what also happened in the Battle of Normandy? I'll give you a hint: it starts with 't' and ends with 'actics'. It is important to be tactically flexible and not just quit every time someone turns up with a bunch a LRs or stimtides (which, in my meta would be pretty much quitting half of your games). One of the joys of warhammer is blowing up those big mutherfethers in the most creative way possible I do agree with you though when you say that many of the best games aren't just 3 riptides and a stormsurge vs a bunch of IK's.

Seriously, though - one of the best things about warhammer is you can play it however you want. If you want to slug it out in a game of Super Saiyan 40K, then go ahead. No one can dictate how other people play - it's their hobby, after all.

 Foamy248 wrote:
This thread is the epitome of the tragic side of wargaming. The thread was originally posted by someone who (from what I can tell) simply is stating his own opinion. Sure, Traditio's opinion was... interesting, to say the least, but he does have the right to say it. The thread had the potential to become an interesting, civil "conversation" about the values of warhammer and how it, as a game, should be approached.

Really, guys? Can we just agree to disagree here? Everyone has their own opinion, no matter how ridiculous it seems to others. Traditio - if you want to have a fun, non-competitive game of Space Normandy, then don't partake in Tournaments and games where the objective is to steamroll the opposition in the most humiliating way possible. Tbh, most casual games go by your definition of warhammer, anyway. However, I think it is a bit ridiculous you want people to change THEIR OWN lists, just to make you happy. Do you know what also happened in the Battle of Normandy? I'll give you a hint: it starts with 't' and ends with 'actics'. It is important to be tactically flexible and not just quit every time someone turns up with a bunch a LRs or stimtides (which, in my meta would be pretty much quitting half of your games). One of the joys of warhammer is blowing up those big mutherfethers in the most creative way possible I do agree with you though when you say that many of the best games aren't just 3 riptides and a stormsurge vs a bunch of IK's.

Seriously, though - one of the best things about warhammer is you can play it however you want. If you want to slug it out in a game of Super Saiyan 40K, then go ahead. No one can dictate how other people play - it's their hobby, after all.

Tradito wants to dictate how other people play though. Look through his post history

 CrownAxe wrote:

Tradito wants to dictate how other people play though. Look through his post history

I know lol. As I mentioned in my post, it would be simpler if he was simply more tactically flexible and could adapt to other list using... WAIT FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT...


.

Seriously, it's hypocritical telling HIM how he should play (that not to tell other people how to play). He is allowed to attempt to tell others how they should play, if he wants, although I don't think that the religion of SpessNohrmanyism will catch on.

The difference between him telling us how to play and vice versa is were telling him he simply needs to adapt his army and do more than file his soldiers straight into the barrels of his enemies guns (i.e. using LOS blocking cover, changing his upgrades to fit the units better, like melta guns instead of multi meltas on tacs, etc). I wouldn't say that's telling him how to play however, but how to make himself a better player. The other side is he is literally telling us "play this way or you're a WAAC TFG"

 Wolfblade wrote:
The difference between him telling us how to play and vice versa is were telling him he simply needs to adapt his army and do more than file his soldiers straight into the barrels of his enemies guns (i.e. using LOS blocking cover, changing his upgrades to fit the units better, like melta guns instead of multi meltas on tacs, etc). I wouldn't say that's telling him how to play however, but how to make himself a better player. The other side is he is literally telling us "play this way or you're a WAAC TFG"

Fair enough. Maybe you guys could just give him some tactical advice instead then lol. I know some people have already, but instead of trying to flame-grill him, you could be more constructive. Tbh, I agree with you though

Many have tried (including this thread) and all have failed as far as I can tell. Traditio refuses to accept advice or change his list, or do anything that would improve his army. Instead he demands everyone else change their lists let him have a chance. (And apparently will only play purge the alien/kill points with a gladius marine list)

 Foamy248 wrote:
Maybe you guys could just give him some tactical advice instead then lol. I know some people have already, but instead of trying to flame-grill him, you could be more constructive. Tbh, I agree with you though

Certainly a nice thought, but this isn't a tactics thread, nor is it in the tactics subforum. Unfortunately, this is about Traditio's poor understanding of game design and general lack of empathy towards anyone who doesn't think exactly the same.

Its pretty hard to take someone seriously and give them serious feedback to improve their gameplay when they seriously propose to ban an entire faction. Its grade school thinking.

I for one am shocked that a poster who made a thread specifically to trash people who don't play his head cannon was himself trashed.

 slip wrote:
I for one am shocked that a poster who made a thread specifically to trash people who don't play his head cannon was himself trashed.

On the plus side, it certainly united all the other posters in the thread!

Looks like this is beyond saving.