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Merellin wrote:
So, why isent the Grey Knights Dreadknight on the list? It's a giant robot with a babycarrier! Is it just because it is part of the Imperium of Man and they are allowed to do what ever they want?

Pretty much. Wouldn't want to nerf GW's poster boys.

Tau hate is in full swing again.

Edit
I think it has to do with the fact that they want Tau battlesuits to be more durable than the Imps stuff. In lore it makes sense as the Damocles Gulf truly showed the disparity in technology levels of their battlefield weaponry with the Tau mostly decimating the Imperium until the Tech Priests turned to super exterminatus. Tau technology just seems to be more durable and agile that their Imperial counterparts. At one point a Riptide flies and lands on top of an Imperial Knight to try and deal damage to it. These are clearly agile suits that are being piloted by one person.

The only one I could see having an argument for it to be a vehicle is the Stormsurge. Except we know that's not true. It can stomp like any other GMC and in tournaments that's its most effective usage as a unit of two can stomp gak to death in melee better than it can shoot stuff. It's a Tau melee unit essentially. In lore and fluff it hasn't been used like that but it is durable enough to go up against Imperial Knights and survive and even reap heavy tolls on them in the Damocles Crusade. So clearly MC seems to be reserved for vehicles that behave in a distinct way. I would love to see a dreadnought fly around stomping stuff and jumping on their enemies except its way too clunky and slow to do that.

I do wish the Surge had a cover included though since the open topped is silly. This is just Space Marine/Imperial spank that another faction could possibly beat them and have superior technology in some ways.

So is the Eldar hate.

Traditio wrote:

Tarvitz77 wrote:I feel Crisis suits and Broadsides are small enough to justify being infantry.

Did you see the comparative images I posted above?

The smaller crisis suits? Arguable. [But by the same argument, dreadnoughts should become infantry.]

Broadsides? The suggestion that they are "small enough," relative to their pilots, to justify their being infantry is positively ridiculous.

Then by that logic the dreadnought is just fine with vehicle rules, because the broadside model is comparable in size to the dreadnought model (they're on the same size base and take up about as much "space", only appearing bigger if they're equipped with the insanely long rifles). If it's "positively ridiculous" for broadsides to have infantry stats then so too is it for dreadnoughts to have them.

So yeah, broadsides are arguable now because GW made the new design so massive, but crisis suits aren't nearly as large as broadsides/dreadnoughts are, and so being classed as infantry makes sense (as much sense as centurions being classed as infantry, anyway). And if you want to push the issue with crisis suits in particular then I insist centurions should also have vehicle rules, because looking at the model comparisons for those the centurion is to the crisis suit what the dreadnought is to the broadside (if I'm not mistaken centurions and crisis suits even come on the same bases now, and likewise seem to take up a similar amount of space). And also because the machine is controlled by the Marine's thoughts, not his limbs, so the fluff supports the argument that it's a battlesuit piloted in a similar fashion to Tau battlesuits. Case in point:

40k wiki wrote:An XV8 Crisis Battlesuit pilot sits in a foetal position within the central torso section of the Battlesuit, and pilots the Battlesuit through a neural link that connects the Fire Warrior’s brain to the Battlesuit's control interface through a monofilament needle inserted through the back of the head. This disrupts the nervous system of the pilot and temporarily disconnects the body from the pilot's brain from the neck down. The Battlesuit control system then interprets movement signals from the pilot’s brain as the movements of the Battlesuit’s body, effectively making the Battlesuit the pilot’s new ‘body’.

In theory, damage to the Battlesuit unit, whether it be through the lopping off of limbs, the firing of bullets into the chassis, electrocution, burning, or the "beheading" of the primary optic sensor, will not cause pain or discomfort to the pilot inside. However, veteran Battlesuit pilots have been known to develop ho’or-ata-t’chel, which are sympathetic ghost pains and phantom reactions to external damage. This condition is also known as Battlesuit Neurosis, and can cause serious problems in the lives of Battlesuit pilots outside their Battlesuit. Fire Warriors have been known to be so traumatised at losing their Battlesuit's sensor cluster "head" that they have spent months in a psychosomatic coma. Some Battlesuit veterans at the end of their careers may also develop quirks such as trying to fly without their Battlesuit, or not being able to understand why they walk or move properly in normal life when their Battlesuit was damaged.

Personally I always thought the battlesuit neurosis thing was interesting. I wonder if stuff like that is even in the new codices anymore, I haven't looked.

Merellin wrote:
So, why isent the Grey Knights Dreadknight on the list? It's a giant robot with a babycarrier! Is it just because it is part of the Imperium of Man and they are allowed to do what ever they want?

Pretty much, yeah. Oh, and because supposedly it isn't overpowered like the Tau/Eldar offenders so it doesn't "need" to be fixed, which means this whole thing isn't about achieving some sort of consistency within the game rules, either, and is more about amateur game balance.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

This minus the Wraith part. Wraith knights and up should all be vehicles.

See, I disagree. Aren't WK possessed by the pilot (if there even is a pilot), literally becoming their body? That to me screams MC. Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

Except it does, though. Refer to the snippet from the wiki I quoted above. The pilot's brain is wired into the suit and the suit effectively becomes their "body", they control the suit's movement with their brain. And it then goes on to say that pilots do indeed end up developing ghost pains and phantom reactions to battle damage sustained when in the suit, which makes life outside the suit weird or difficult. Pilots who have lost their suits "head" go into a coma, etc.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

Except it does, though. Refer to the snippet from the wiki I quoted above. The pilot's brain is wired into the suit and the suit effectively becomes their "body", they control the suit's movement with their brain. And it then goes on to say that pilots do indeed end up developing ghost pains and phantom reactions to battle damage sustained when in the suit, which makes life outside the suit weird or difficult. Pilots who have lost their suits "head" go into a coma, etc.

How is that any different from a Dreadnought? And is this at all backed up by actual codex fluff?

Sidstyler wrote:Except it does, though. Refer to the snippet from the wiki I quoted above. The pilot's brain is wired into the suit and the suit effectively becomes their "body", they control the suit's movement with their brain. And it then goes on to say that pilots do indeed end up developing ghost pains and phantom reactions to battle damage sustained when in the suit, which makes life outside the suit weird or difficult. Pilots who have lost their suits "head" go into a coma, etc.

Therefore dreadnoughts should be monstrous creatures.

The simple fact is that suits are mechanical constructs which require a pilot. Therefore, vehicles.

Oh look... its this again

I would draw the MC distinction at the neural level. Does the pilot directly "become" the suit and is able to react like it's his own body. Then MC. Or should be except GW is dumb.

Is it just a suit/vehicle with no direct neural connection to the whole vehicle/suit/whatever? Then no.

So a Deadnought should be an MC in my opinion.

I then think the next distinction is how fast and capable is the neural link in a Dreadnought? Maybe they are too slow and clumsy to be true MC? Maybe the technology of the mind is there but the technology of the dreadnought is too slow for it to properly react like a MC and act like one.

So it could be the Dreadnoughts mechanical construction is limiting the neural link of its pilot from becoming a true MC. That's my theory anyway for how GW make the distinction. If they even care as much as us. More likely its arbitrary and they don't give it much thought except to sell models.

Sidstyler wrote:Then by that logic the dreadnought is just fine with vehicle rules

Yes. I agree with this. Dreadnoughts should be vehicles. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL CONSTRUCTS. Since dreadnoughts and broadsides are roughly equivalent, broadsides should be vehicles also.

Especially given the fact that little green men are much smaller than 8 foot tall space marines.

because the broadside model is comparable in size to the dreadnought model (they're on the same size base and take up about as much "space", only appearing bigger if they're equipped with the insanely long rifles). If it's "positively ridiculous" for broadsides to have infantry stats then so too is it for dreadnoughts to have them.

Dreadnoughts DON'T have infantry stats.

So yeah, broadsides are arguable now because GW made the new design so massive, but crisis suits aren't nearly as large as broadsides/dreadnoughts are, and so being classed as infantry makes sense (as much sense as centurions being classed as infantry, anyway). And if you want to push the issue with crisis suits in particular then I insist centurions should also have vehicle rules, because looking at the model comparisons for those the centurion is to the crisis suit what the dreadnought is to the broadside (if I'm not mistaken centurions and crisis suits even come on the same bases now, and likewise seem to take up a similar amount of space). And also because the machine is controlled by the Marine's thoughts, not his limbs, so the fluff supports the argument that it's a battlesuit piloted in a similar fashion to Tau battlesuits. Case in point:

I'll grant that crisis suits are probably roughly equivalent to centurions. Whatever rules hold for the one should hold for the other.

They should probably both be walkers.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

This minus the Wraith part. Wraith knights and up should all be vehicles.

See, I disagree. Aren't WK possessed by the pilot (if there even is a pilot), literally becoming their body? That to me screams MC. Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

Wraithknights also have a pilot in the walker. Without this pilot they don't work.

pm713 wrote:Wraithknights also have a pilot in the walker. Without this pilot they don't work.

This is what it comes down to for me:

Are wraithknights organic or mechanical?

If they are mechanical, then vehicles.

If organic, then MC.

I could realistically see a WK as being a GMC. That said, it should have a much higher points cost.

Mechanical vs organic doesn't work because you can build a machine out of organic parts. One is an attribute of designed complexity the other is an attribute of material composition. Apples and oranges.


I think the difference between Monstrous Creature and vehicle Walker, should come down to how removed the operation of the weapon is from the "pilot." Dreadknight and Dreadnought should be walkers because there is a distinct pilot who is jostled and impacted by the vehicles damage the same way a tank driver is effected when their tank is struck. Wraith Lords and such, and daemon engines should be Monstrous creatures because there is no divisible way to physically separate the element that controls the construct from the construct... when an element is damaged the controlling entity is damaged.

pm713 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

This minus the Wraith part. Wraith knights and up should all be vehicles.

See, I disagree. Aren't WK possessed by the pilot (if there even is a pilot), literally becoming their body? That to me screams MC. Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

Wraithknights also have a pilot in the walker. Without this pilot they don't work.

Ok, then make them walkers! I was under the impression they were something like a soulstone jammed in a big scary body. Chalk this up to me not being totally familiar with their fluff. Thanks for the clarifications !

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the difference between Monstrous Creature and vehicle Walker, should come down to how removed the operation of the weapon is from the "pilot." Dreadknight and Dreadnought should be walkers because there is a distinct pilot who is jostled and impacted by the vehicles damage the same way a tank driver is effected when their tank is struck. Wraith Lords and such, and daemon engines should be Monstrous creatures because there is no divisible way to physically separate the element that controls the construct from the construct... when an element is damaged the controlling entity is damaged.

All of this is utterly irrelevant for the purposes of whether or not something is a vehicle or a monstrous creature.

A dinosaur is a monstrous creature. It is a living, organic thing. If you stab it in the butt, it will heal over time. No mechanics are needed to fix it up.

My car is a vehicle. It is a mechanical construct. It doesn't display the various properties of life (as Aristotle says, growth, self-nourishment and reproductive capacities).

If it breaks down, it won't naturally heal over time. A mechanic has to fix it.

Traditio wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the difference between Monstrous Creature and vehicle Walker, should come down to how removed the operation of the weapon is from the "pilot." Dreadknight and Dreadnought should be walkers because there is a distinct pilot who is jostled and impacted by the vehicles damage the same way a tank driver is effected when their tank is struck. Wraith Lords and such, and daemon engines should be Monstrous creatures because there is no divisible way to physically separate the element that controls the construct from the construct... when an element is damaged the controlling entity is damaged.

All of this is utterly irrelevant for the purposes of whether or not something is a vehicle or a monstrous creature.

A dinosaur is a monstrous creature. It is a living, organic thing. If you stab it in the butt, it will heal over time. No mechanics are needed to fix it up.

My car is a vehicle. It is a mechanical construct. It doesn't display the various properties of life (as Aristotle says, growth, self-nourishment and reproductive capacities).

If it breaks down, it won't naturally heal over time. A mechanic has to fix it.

That makes the Wraithknight a mc as wraithbone regenerates itself. As to your previous post about what the WK should be I'd make it a SHV as without the pilot it stops working.

It's much better to determine whether things are vehicles or mc by how they work rather than construction material. Otherwise all the Necron vehicles are mc despite the fact they clearly seem to be vehicles.

pm713 689446 wrote:That makes the Wraithknight a mc as wraithbone regenerates itself. As to your previous post about what the WK should be I'd make it a SHV as without the pilot it stops working.

It's much better to determine whether things are vehicles or mc by how they work rather than construction material. Otherwise all the Necron vehicles are mc despite the fact they clearly seem to be vehicles.

No, no, no.

My points have nothing to do with construction material.

Imagine the following flowchart:

Is it alive?

Yes? Move on to the next question.
No? Vehicle.

Do you need a mechanic to fix it?

Yes? Vehicle.
No? Monstrous Creature.

Necron vehicles aren't alive.
I might be willing to admit that wraith constructs are alive.
Wave serpents are obviously not alive.

To make sure that we got the right answer, simply ask the following question:

If you hit it with a lascannon, will it blow up?

Yes? Probably a vehicle.
No? Probably a monstrous creature.

Just make all vehicles and MCs work under the same rules. Drop the whole divide between vehicles and MCs and we eliminate the fluff contradictions and only have to be concerned with one set of rules governing all the large gribblies on the table top.

Traditio wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the difference between Monstrous Creature and vehicle Walker, should come down to how removed the operation of the weapon is from the "pilot." Dreadknight and Dreadnought should be walkers because there is a distinct pilot who is jostled and impacted by the vehicles damage the same way a tank driver is effected when their tank is struck. Wraith Lords and such, and daemon engines should be Monstrous creatures because there is no divisible way to physically separate the element that controls the construct from the construct... when an element is damaged the controlling entity is damaged.

All of this is utterly irrelevant for the purposes of whether or not something is a vehicle or a monstrous creature.

A dinosaur is a monstrous creature. It is a living, organic thing. If you stab it in the butt, it will heal over time. No mechanics are needed to fix it up.

My car is a vehicle. It is a mechanical construct. It doesn't display the various properties of life (as Aristotle says, growth, self-nourishment and reproductive capacities).

If it breaks down, it won't naturally heal over time. A mechanic has to fix it.

I don't think its irrelevant at all. Necron machines heal. Eldar machines heal. Daemon Engines heal. They have means of self repair despite their being mechanical. Mechanical means it just has a complexity of design it has no relationship to the distinct movement and operation of these different weapons.

I think it comes down to whether damaging the construct damages the entity piloting it. You shoot a dreadnought, you blow off armor or a gun, but the marine inside is still in the same relative condition as before. You shoot up a wraithlord's arm its as if you cut off the piloting entities arm.

aka_mythos wrote: I don't think its irrelevant at all. Necron machines heal. Eldar machines heal. Daemon Engines heal. They have means of self repair despite their being mechanical. Mechanical means it just has a complexity of design it has no relationship to the distinct movement and operation of these different weapons.

I think it comes down to whether damaging the construct damages the entity piloting it. You shoot a dreadnought, you blow off armor or a gun, but the marine inside is still in the same relative condition as before. You show off a wraithlord's arm its as if you cut off the piloting entities arm.

See the following flowchart, as per above:

Imagine the following flowchart:

Is it alive?

Yes? Move on to the next question.
No? Vehicle.

Do you need a mechanic to fix it?

Yes? Vehicle.
No? Monstrous Creature.

Necron vehicles aren't alive.
I might be willing to admit that wraith constructs are alive.
Wave serpents are obviously not alive.

To make sure that we got the right answer, simply ask the following question:

If you hit it with a lascannon, will it blow up?

Yes? Probably a vehicle.
No? Probably a monstrous creature.

Traditio wrote:

aka_mythos wrote: I don't think its irrelevant at all. Necron machines heal. Eldar machines heal. Daemon Engines heal. They have means of self repair despite their being mechanical. Mechanical means it just has a complexity of design it has no relationship to the distinct movement and operation of these different weapons.

I think it comes down to whether damaging the construct damages the entity piloting it. You shoot a dreadnought, you blow off armor or a gun, but the marine inside is still in the same relative condition as before. You show off a wraithlord's arm its as if you cut off the piloting entities arm.

See the following flowchart, as per above:

Imagine the following flowchart:

Is it alive?

Yes? Move on to the next question.
No? Vehicle.

Do you need a mechanic to fix it?

Yes? Vehicle.
No? Monstrous Creature.

Necron vehicles aren't alive.
I might be willing to admit that wraith constructs are alive.
Wave serpents are obviously not alive.

To make sure that we got the right answer, simply ask the following question:

If you hit it with a lascannon, will it blow up?

Yes? Probably a vehicle.
No? Probably a monstrous creature.

Define alive.

Then ask what happens to things that fulfil some but not all the conditions for it.

pm713 wrote:Define alive.

In the most common sense understanding of the term.

More particularly:

If you're claiming it's a MC, you're claiming that it's an ANIMAL.

Is a tau battle suit an ANIMAL in any sense of that term?

You want to claim that a Necron Ghost Ark is an animal?

Ok. Are there little baby ghost arks somewhere?

Do they get old and die?

Do they have sex? Or do they reproduce asexually?

What is a ghost ark's favorite food?

Then ask what happens to things that fulfil some but not all the conditions for it.

It's a flowchart. If it's either not alive, does require a mechanic or would indeed explode if I hit it just right with a lascannon, it's a vehicle.

In order to be an MC it must be alive AND not require a mechanic to fix it AND not be able to explode if I hit it just right with a lascannon.

Tau suits are clearly vehicles by all counts.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

This minus the Wraith part. Wraith knights and up should all be vehicles.

See, I disagree. Aren't WK possessed by the pilot (if there even is a pilot), literally becoming their body? That to me screams MC. Tau just pilot a suit. It does not become their body any more than a Dreadnought does to a Marine (the marine doesn't feel the armor get scraped or punctured).

So then Dreads should become MCs, as they are hardwired into the Dreadnought. They can no sooner leave their Dreadnought then a Wraith Knight can.

Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Clearly not. Because they are MACHINES and not ANIMALS, they need a mechanic to fix them and can blow up if I hit them just right with a lascannon.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Clearly not. Because they are MACHINES and not ANIMALS, they need a mechanic to fix them and can blow up if I hit them just right with a lascannon.

Well it's alive and therefore an MC.

Anything about the same size as a Dread with a pilot, be it Eldar, Human, Ork, Tau, Soul, or Demon, should be a walker.

things Centurion Sized or smaller like Killa Kans, Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Wraithguard, Hive Guard, ect should be Regular Infantry, because they are for the most part just a little bigger than regular infantry.

Riptides, The Baby Carrier, , Helbrutes, Dreads,Defilers, Soul Grinders, Dinobots, Ghostknells, Wraithlords, Stormsurges, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, ect should be walkers/SHW. They have a Pilot and they are bigger than normal infantry.


Demon Princes, Big Bugs, Greater Demons,Squiggoths, ect Should be MC/GMC. They are actual Creatures that are Monstrous.

On the Fence about Broadsides because the Original XV88 was just a Crisis Suit with Railguns hot glued to the shoulders and SMS stapled to the arms. Could honestly see that one going as Infantry or a Walker.

But that'll never happen, barring this they need to wrap all walkers into MC/GMC and/or add a chart in the BRB for all MCs as they take damage to lose effectiveness ala AoS and increase all hull points by half rounded up( 3 hull on a Speeder, 5 on a Rhino, 6 on a Land Raider, 9 on a Typhon, 12 or whatever on a Knight)


I think the Chart would be best IMO because it would give us some fun opportunities for nids.

Lets say for the time being the chart was: -1 to all stats except LD and Armor every time you lose 25% wounds. They could put a Biomorph in the Tyranid Codex for certain MCs that Reverses the effect of the chart for 30 points, or whatever,

Except not all those have pilots. Also why is a Centurion infantry but not a Dreadnought? They are very similar in size.

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Clearly not. Because they are MACHINES and not ANIMALS, they need a mechanic to fix them and can blow up if I hit them just right with a lascannon.

Well it's alive and therefore an MC.

Doesn't follow. I gave a 3 stage flow-chart.