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2016/05/02 02:04:41
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Dakka Veteran
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in your opinion?
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2016/05/02 02:09:54
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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surpass in what way?
I think the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I mean Abbaddon's definatly survived longer then Horus has.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2016/05/02 02:10:30
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Dakka Veteran
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BrianDavion wrote:surpass in what way?
I think the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I mean Abbaddon's definatly survived longer then Horus has.
in terms of achievement, legacy
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2016/05/02 02:19:46
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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BD is right in the sense that in some sense he has, but in others he hasn't.
IMHO: He (overall) only surpasses Horus in the sense that he has the potential to create a bigger legacy.
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2016/05/02 03:17:47
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
Massachusetts
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This is at least the 3rd time you've created a thread on the exact same topic. Why?
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2016/05/02 03:20:45
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Wicked Ghast
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Without going into the Failbaddon vitriol I would have to say that no way has he surpassed Horus:
Horus was the first to create the unthinkable - marines fighting marines (other than SW vs 2 missing, which was on the Big E's command).
Horus seriously wounded the Big E and effectively took him out of the picture.
Horus converted half his brother primarchs to Chaos. Abaddon converted zero primarchs and can only get legions at a time now, not 50% of all.
Horus took the gods' powers and went on his own path. Abaddon promises to do the gods' bidding each crusade.
The loyalists were so afraid of Horus they turned Terra into a fortress world, Abaddon has never made it close.
Once Horus had weeded out the loyalists in his ranks none of his soldiers turned against him, rival warlords break away from Abaddon all the time.
Abaddon has done a lot considering he didn't start off a demi-god, but the universe is not a fair place; Horus started with more power and accomplished more.
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Nothing to see here, move along mortal.  |
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2016/05/02 03:52:53
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Dakka Veteran
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 Orblivion wrote:This is at least the 3rd time you've created a thread on the exact same topic. Why?
I honest to god forgot i made 2 other previous threads about this
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2016/05/02 07:36:57
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Not yet. Horus did it first, and his followers were loyal because they believed the rebellion would succeed. Abbadon has the benefit of learning from Horus' mistakes, but has followers who don't believe that it will succeed, and so the loyalty has gone. Abbadon was never described as being particularly charismatic, so the fact that he has the following he does is impressive, as it all comes down to what he has done, and fear of what he is capable of when betrayed. Horus was the number one primarch for charisma, and the leader of the crusade, so swaying others to his side would have been naturally easier for him. The only way he can really surpass him though is to destroy terra, and kill the Emperor completely. As much as I think that the background could survive that happening and carry on, I don't think it will go that far (although whfb may suggest it will).
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2016/05/02 18:57:12
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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God no, Abaddon is a tiny flea compared to horus. The black crusades haven't done much because of everyone's plot armour and everything they did manage to accomplish is just "meh" in comparison to the big picture. Oh no! Abaddon's at the Cadian gate! Too bad you'll have to wait another 10 years until the plot advances and end times comes. Horus actually damned the galaxy, so I think that's a bigger accomplishment than bonking armageddon on the head a few more times. On a combat and strategist level, Horus still beats Abaddon. At the end of the day, Horus was a primarch hopped up on chaos drugs, Abaddon is a space marine hopped up on chaos drugs, guess who's better?
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2016/05/02 19:12:10
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
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2016/05/02 19:21:58
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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 ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
especially as it's been said that by the Battle of Terra Horus' coalition is pretty much coming apart.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2016/05/02 19:34:15
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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BrianDavion wrote: ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
especially as it's been said that by the Battle of Terra Horus' coalition is pretty much coming apart.
Not sure they're really spoilers but just in case
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2016/05/02 19:37:57
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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ImAGeek wrote:BrianDavion wrote: ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
especially as it's been said that by the Battle of Terra Horus' coalition is pretty much coming apart.
Not sure they're really spoilers but just in case
this isn't the first time he's said something along those lines. In... I think it's Vengeful Spirit, that so many of the awesome primarchs stayed loyal, and he's mostly got the broken ones.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2016/05/02 19:42:29
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Yeah he basically reiterates that in Path of Heaven.
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2016/05/02 19:43:00
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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 JustALittleOrkish wrote:Without going into the Failbaddon vitriol I would have to say that no way has he surpassed Horus:
Horus was the first to create the unthinkable - marines fighting marines (other than SW vs 2 missing, which was on the Big E's command).
Horus seriously wounded the Big E and effectively took him out of the picture.
Horus converted half his brother primarchs to Chaos. Abaddon converted zero primarchs and can only get legions at a time now, not 50% of all.
Horus took the gods' powers and went on his own path. Abaddon promises to do the gods' bidding each crusade.
The loyalists were so afraid of Horus they turned Terra into a fortress world, Abaddon has never made it close.
Once Horus had weeded out the loyalists in his ranks none of his soldiers turned against him, rival warlords break away from Abaddon all the time.
Abaddon has done a lot considering he didn't start off a demi-god, but the universe is not a fair place; Horus started with more power and accomplished more.
Agreed. Horus basically laid the ground work for any of Abaddon's accomplishments. As of yet, Abaddon hasn't killed any Primarchs. Horus killed 1 directly, 1 indirectly, wounded 1 indirectly, and nearly killed the Big E.
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2016/05/02 20:25:45
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Fixture of Dakka
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ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
Aren't they just together for the Crusade itself then back to normal?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2016/05/02 20:31:59
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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pm713 wrote: ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
Aren't they just together for the Crusade itself then back to normal?
Control no...
Gather together the frothing manics and point them in direction to go yes.
All the war bands, fleets and reavers.
There not in a chain of chomand. There is none. They fall apart soon as they have no larger target.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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2016/05/02 20:32:57
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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pm713 wrote: ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
Aren't they just together for the Crusade itself then back to normal?
Isn't the Black Legion always around? Either way, even keeping them together for a crusade is no mean feat.
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2016/05/02 20:56:42
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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umm he killed Horus, not the real one no, but a, as far as we know, perfect clone.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2016/05/02 20:59:32
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Fixture of Dakka
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ImAGeek wrote:pm713 wrote: ImAGeek wrote:Abaddon gets big props from me by virtue of being able to hold together a force of Chaos as large as he has for as long as he has without being a Primarch.
Aren't they just together for the Crusade itself then back to normal?
Isn't the Black Legion always around? Either way, even keeping them together for a crusade is no mean feat.
What I meant was that Abaddon controls most of the Black Legion all the time but during Black Crusades he gains control of way more Chaos forces. Don't these extra forces just go back to their own things after the Crusade?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2016/05/02 21:02:07
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Before the "clarification" from GW, Abaddon was considered a failure. Sure he wrecked a lot of gak and killed a bunch of loyalists/xenos interlopers, but the Black Crusades came across as temper tantrums by a narcissistic prick that enjoyed a few minor successes to offset the failures.
Even taking into account the retcon to get rid of the "armless failure/ Failbaddon" meme, Horus achieved more against the Imperium in a few short years than Abaddon did in 10,000 years.
Abaddon still has a ways to go in my view.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/02 21:02:40
Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k |
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2016/05/02 21:14:50
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Fixture of Dakka
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Horus conquered the known galaxy making up the Imperium in 200 years.
Abaddon has been festering in prison for ten thousand.
No.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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2016/05/02 22:12:46
Subject: Re:did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BrianDavion wrote:
umm he killed Horus, not the real one no, but a, as far as we know, perfect clone.
I think in some ways he can also take the credit for killing Dorn (missing, presumed dead due to a Black Crusade). Sure it wasn't man on man, but where is the point in having his Black Legion and Fleets if he can't take the credit for their accomplishments?
Edit:
on the subject on whether the black crusades were a retcon:
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/02 22:15:07
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2016/05/03 00:13:49
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Wicked Ghast
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pm713 wrote:What I meant was that Abaddon controls most of the Black Legion all the time but during Black Crusades he gains control of way more Chaos forces. Don't these extra forces just go back to their own things after the Crusade?
Does he ever control Huron and the Red Corsairs? Im pretty sure I recall a short story in a Hammer and Bolter collection where they compete for the same resources and Huron usually wins.
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Nothing to see here, move along mortal. |
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2016/05/03 00:54:20
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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I think it's worth noting Horus Started out in complete control of his legion and was put in a place of influance over the remaining legions.
Abbaddon started out with a few squads of posessed terminators, 2 chaos sorcerers, 100 rubric Marines, a handful of Khrone Bezerkers, a master swordsman, a Battleship, and a cruiser he cou;dn't crew.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2016/05/03 02:05:33
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Fixture of Dakka
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BrianDavion wrote:I think it's worth noting Horus Started out in complete control of his legion and was put in a place of influance over the remaining legions.
Abbaddon started out with a few squads of posessed terminators, 2 chaos sorcerers, 100 rubric Marines, a handful of Khrone Bezerkers, a master swordsman, a Battleship, and a cruiser he cou;dn't crew.
Well, that's also true.
Horus lead exactly one warzone where he didn't have a grossly inordinate advantage in troops, material, supply, and basically everything else you need for warfare. And he lost.
At least Abaddon's gross incompetence isn't coming from a position of superiority.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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2016/05/03 10:13:21
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Abaddon and everything that has followed the Heresy is Horus' Legacy.
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2016/05/03 13:55:42
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Horus rvial: The Emperor
Abaddons rival: Ursarkar E Creed.
Creed wins.
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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2016/05/03 18:02:33
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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 DarknessEternal wrote:Horus conquered the known galaxy making up the Imperium in 200 years.
Abaddon has been festering in prison for ten thousand.
No.
That's not true. Horus and 17 other genetically enhanced demigods and 1,747,000 (low estimate, not counting 3 legions because their numbers weren't on the page) space marine legionnaires and countless number of imperial army, militia, solar Auxilia, mechanicum etc conquered the Galaxy. Horus wasn't even actually in charge until right near the end, it was the Emperor.
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2016/05/03 20:41:44
Subject: did Abaddon surpass Horus
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Fixture of Dakka
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Yes, I acknowledged that later on. I was being hyperbolic.
Horus was probably a worse leader than Abaddon given their actual track records.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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