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 DarknessEternal wrote:

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

The ability to Charge is overridden, the ability for the Scouts to be Deep Strike Homers is not. Just because you override one part of a sentence doesn't mean override all the rest that is not mentioned.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

The rule I quoted is in Moving On From Reserves.

Does the rule for On Target say anything about "If the scouts begin their turn..." or "At the Start of your turn"? Otherwise it doesn't necessarily require the scouts to start the turn on the board to function. Things like Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons have such wording in their rules, On Target does not.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

The ability to Charge is overridden, the ability for the Scouts to be Deep Strike Homers is not. Just because you override one part of a sentence doesn't mean override all the rest that is not mentioned.

There's no imperative for the Scouts to have been there at the beginning of the turn.

They are not Teleport Homers. Teleport Homer rules do not apply here, just as in the same way Shuriken Catapult rules do not apply here.

Aren't the vet units the ones using the special rule?

casvalremdeikun wrote:Does the rule for On Target say anything about "If the scouts begin their turn..." or "At the Start of your turn"? Otherwise it doesn't necessarily require the scouts to start the turn on the board to function. Things like Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons have such wording in their rules, On Target does not.

Arriving From Reserves is part of the Start of the Turn process. It has its own restrictions which do not always need to be presented again in the rules.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no imperative for the Scouts to have been there at the beginning of the turn.

They are not Teleport Homers. Teleport Homer rules do not apply here, just as in the same way Shuriken Catapult rules do not apply here.

Not by ...On Target, but abilities that are used at the Start of the Turn cannot be used when you arrived from Reserves. The Scouts units cannot be recognized as on the board for this occasion.

jokerkd wrote:Aren't the vet units the ones using the special rule?

Their position, but providing that position is still an ability of the Scouts.

It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

He had 1st turn. From reserve 3 units of Van Vets, combat squad to 5 units and 2 10 man units of scouts in allied pods arrived. There was a third drop pod in reserve but he failed the 4+ roll for that one. (it had 5 command squad grav gun dudes with a white scar HQ that gives relentless so he gets full salvo, ingoring cover shots)

Scouts used drop pods from White scars allied detachment. He placed, deviated, combat squad, disembarked, the two 10 man scout squads in allied pods in succession. Then placed 5 vet squads 2 inches away from my warp spiders, and assaulted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

The vets were combat squads too i take it?

 ArmyC wrote:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

But in game mechanics the Scouts are there, so you can be within 9 inches of them.

 jokerkd wrote:
The vets were combat squads too i take it?

Probably not. the formation is up to 5 vet squads.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

But in game mechanics the Scouts are there, so you can be within 9 inches of them.

 jokerkd wrote:
The vets were combat squads too i take it?

Probably not. the formation is up to 5 vet squads.

1-3 iirc

Hi guys-

New user here. ArmyC is my long time gaming buddy and it was I who assaulted him on turn one. Please forgive me if I do not follow proper forum etiquette with my list posting. My army (if memory serves) for last weekend's 2000 pt game was as follows:

Talon Strike Force (Ravenguard)
...Demi-Company
Chaplain with Raven's Fury
Command Squad Grav x5 Pod
Tac Squad ML
Tac Squad ML
Tac Squad ML
Attack Bike MM
Dev Squad ML x3

...Shadow Strike Kill Team (Ravenguard)
Scouts x10
Scouts x10
VV power axe x10
VV power axe x10
VV power axe x5

CAD (White Scars)
Cataphractii Term Capt with Relic Blade & Hunter's Eye
Tac Squad melta
Tac Squad melta
FA Pod
FA Pod

Scouts were in FA Pods and combat squad-ed. Term Capt joined the command squad in the third pod. I won the roll for first turn. VV were combat squad-ed. I hope this helps clear up any confusion, and thank you to everyone who has offered replies and opinions. I should also note that we do not participate in any tournament formats like ITC and play RAW as much as we are able.

 jokerkd wrote:
It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

Okay, then demonstrate how it works either with Scouts without this rule or no Scouts whatsoever.

Demonstrate how this has a rule stating the Scouts needed to be there at the beginning of the turn.

@ Charistoph just read the formation and the detachment rules and replace for a moment the word "scouts" with " frogs"

Now immagine the frog unit having no wargear and no special rules. you see it sill works.

@robisabee just for fun could you also post your list ?

 Charistoph wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

Okay, then demonstrate how it works either with Scouts without this rule or no Scouts whatsoever.

Do the scouts actually have the rule? It seems to me that this a case of

"Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together.

On second thought, that may just mean that it lists USRs instead of explaining them.

Either way. Assuming that the scouts do not have the rule, would you still say it would not work?

Mini Rulebook page 136 "Moving on from reserve" section

It says and I quote "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So from what I can tell this comes down to a question of do the formation rules count as "abilities or special rules" and if they are "used". How do you define what being "used" means? Similar things in the game that relate to this kind of thing such as teleporter homers specify that they dont work if they arrive from reserve. The scouts in this formation and the rules associated with them do not mention and requirement for them to be on the board turn 1 before deepstriking or reserve rolls/moves are made.

First we must resolve if the formation rule counts as special rules or abilities that must be used. Do we USE the formation bonus the same way we use a melta bomb?

I am honestly not sure. I would go with that technically yes you could do it but only because other things that allow for modified reserve rolls (Teleporter Homers) specify restrictions where as the formation does not. However I say that with a 55/45 mindset on if its legal.

DarknessEternal wrote:Demonstrate how this has a rule stating the Scouts needed to be there at the beginning of the turn.

Already demonstrated with the requirement that Start of the Turn abilities cannot be used when you arrive from Deep Strike.

jokerkd wrote:Do the scouts actually have the rule? It seems to me that this a case of

"Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together.

On second thought, that may just mean that it lists USRs instead of explaining them.

Either way. Assuming that the scouts do not have the rule, would you still say it would not work?

And the Codex Marines Datasheet legend states under FORMATIONS:

A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain.

In addition from earlier in the same Datasheet Legend:

Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this EPUB or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

No separation between Formation Special Rules and Unit Special Rules is really noted as not apply to the models in question. In addition:

...On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

I was using the case that they Scout Squads have the rule to indicate they are from the same Formation. That basic standard isn't always the case in situations where you have two or more Shadowstrike Kill Teams, however. I was only addressing it as if there was only one in the army.

Tibs Ironblood wrote:Mini Rulebook page 136 "Moving on from reserve" section

It says and I quote "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So from what I can tell this comes down to a question of do the formation rules count as "abilities or special rules" and if they are "used". How do you define what being "used" means? Similar things in the game that relate to this kind of thing such as teleporter homers specify that they dont work if they arrive from reserve. The scouts in this formation and the rules associated with them do not mention and requirement for them to be on the board turn 1 before deepstriking or reserve rolls/moves are made.

Considering that the Formation Datasheets list them under Special Rules the same place they put in things like "Relentless" and "Move Through Cover" (in the case of the Necron Reclamation Legion), I can quite safely state that they are Special Rules, and Special Rules are defined as "abilities" in their Introduction.

P.S. the rulebook pages are the same whether hardback or softback. Digital books, however have page numbers set by the device and the program using them per the font size used, picture resizing, etc (assuming page numbers are even used on the digital).

Tibs Ironblood wrote:I am honestly not sure. I would go with that technically yes you could do it but only because other things that allow for modified reserve rolls (Teleporter Homers) specify restrictions where as the formation does not. However I say that with a 55/45 mindset on if its legal.

The real question is has been asked, is if using the Scouts as a Teleport Homer dependent on the Scouts being able to "use" it or if only the Vanguards actually use it. Most here are of the opinion that the Scouts are not actually using it, but just ancillary to their use, and only the Vanguard are actually using this rule.

If the Vanguard are the only ones using this rule, the inherent permission to overcome the Moving On From Reserves is provided by overriding the Scatter (which can only be performed in the Start of Turn for a normal Deep Strike).

 Charistoph wrote:
Already demonstrated with the requirement that Start of the Turn abilities cannot be used when you arrive from Deep Strike.

There is no start of turn ability though.

I think it's fair to say that a rule allowing you to deep strike without scatter is an ability that must be used at the start of the turn.
I just don't agree that it's the scout's ability

If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Besides which, it is not even a rule the scouts are using, the vets are the ones using it.

RAW yes, this will prevent scatter for the vets

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I assumed the Pods came from a separate CAD, as that's the only way to put the Scouts in them.

Then, if there were at least 3 pods in the overall army, these 2 could have been the ones that arrive on turn 1.

The only Reserves being "rolled" for is the Vanguard, and they can choose to auto-pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Perversor wrote:

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

 Charistoph wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

Nope but i can identify all Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines and even Tyranids (that provide no scatter) stating the unit must be on the table at the beginning of the turn.

Shadowstrike do not come with such clause and as such it's not an ability that *must be used at the beginning of the turn* You can argue all you want, probably an oversight by GW perfect rules team but RAW they don't scatter as long they deploy within 9" of 2x scouts units of formation

The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

Eh... The scouts do nothing and the vets have an ability that only requires arriving close by the scouts. Quite aside from the ability giving no limitation (unlike Teleport homers and so on) I fail to see what use an arrival ability is if the vets can't use it until the turn after they arrive...

This thread has become nonsense.

People are claiming the words are different words than what is written.

Everything about the OP works. There's no reason to think it might not.

Lord Perversor wrote:Nope but i can identify all Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines and even Tyranids (that provide no scatter) stating the unit must be on the table at the beginning of the turn.

Shadowstrike do not come with such clause and as such it's not an ability that *must be used at the beginning of the turn* You can argue all you want, probably an oversight by GW perfect rules team but RAW they don't scatter as long they deploy within 9" of 2x scouts units of formation

Just because other situations provide specific restrictions, doesn't mean that it is required to state such in all rules, especially when other rules already cover it.

The only concept of actual relevance is:

Spetulhu wrote:Eh... The scouts do nothing and the vets have an ability that only requires arriving close by the scouts. Quite aside from the ability giving no limitation (unlike Teleport homers and so on) I fail to see what use an arrival ability is if the vets can't use it until the turn after they arrive...

But this is not quite true. The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.