Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I posted previously about this, but I'd like to hear some opinions now that I got some more data. I prepared a short summary in form of a visual aid, primarily to avoid repetition.

To me it appears as if the following happened:
1) The authors of the Angels of Death - Strike Forces of the Space Marines - Supplement had a fairly clear idea of a Supplement for the Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines in mind and expressed this in the book. The rules in the book clearly grant permission to psykers with the Space Marine Faction to access the new psychic disciplines. Also each of the formations carries the Space Marine Faction icon.

2) The marketing department either misunderstood the BRB-defined term "the Space Marine faction" or decided to share the stuff around and added the AoD book to each blue-team Power Armour faction in the webshop. In the same direction, the gaming aid, side selling card deck was whipped up, with a reference card following the marketing misunderstanding (or decision).

3) The internet read the powers, saw that they were OP and wanted them. 10 bucks for a whole bunch of new options? AWESOME!
Rules? Who cares about rules? I was promised awesome, look I got a card that says my faction can access this discipline!

Obiously, this leaves the question: Which units in the four factions (with access to the discipline by the grace of marketing) can use them?
Since no unit has explict permission, I'd say: none. Total shocker, this isn't the most popular view! ;-]

Given that SM do not get access to SW or DA private disciplines, nor the ability to cast Santic powers like Grey Knights, I cannot see any logical reason why the later should get all the goodies the SM got.

I'd love to hear what your take is, in particular what you think the RAW, RAI and HIWPI are here.

While I admit, RAW doesn't specify which units can take them, I also wouldn't consider the reference card to be advertising.

I also don't know why you would think it more likely that the card AND the web page are mistaken as opposed to the book. clearly one is wrong, but I don't try to claim that I know which one

It specifically says in the pack of cards on the reference card, that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights can use them.
Angels of Death is specifically a Space Marines supplement. They don't need to print in there that Space Wolves, et al can use these too. It doesn't for example, say in codex space marines, in the wargear section, that Blood Angels can use Boltguns, it doesn't need to. That book isn't about the blood Angels.

The cards themselves are very clear. I fail to see where the confusion lies here and feel your trying to make problems where there aren't any.

The problem is the card is not specific in which units in those armies can take them.
We had the same drama with Daemons in the first 7th ed power cards set. they were listed as being able to use anything other than santic and force, which lead to people trying to roll on telepathy with pink horrors and stuff.

 General Kroll wrote:
It specifically says in the pack of cards on the reference card, that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights can use them.

Yes. The reference card indicates access for those factions to those disciplines. Please indicate which units can use them and where you find the permission.

 General Kroll wrote:

Angels of Death is specifically a Space Marines supplement. They don't need to print in there that Space Wolves, et al can use these too. It doesn't for example, say in codex space marines, in the wargear section, that Blood Angels can use Boltguns, it doesn't need to. That book isn't about the blood Angels.

I think you contradict yourself there. Angels of Death IS specifically a Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines Supplement. That is why it the sub-title is "Strike Forces of the Space Marines" and why the PSI rules and each formation reference the (THE!) Space Marines Faction as requirement. While we all know that all factions you mentioned are super-friends, they are not identical and are distinct Codices. I cannot take a Wolf-mount on a generic Space Marine Captain and Wolf-Marines cannot use the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, since those units lack the permission to access these faction specfic options.

 General Kroll wrote:

The cards themselves are very clear. I fail to see where the confusion lies here and feel your trying to make problems where there aren't any.

The quick reference card is not rules. The cards are very handy, but entirely optional. The Supplement - while convenitently ignored - contains the necessary rules and people should have the rules they want to use at hand.
Even if the quick reference card would have rule status, it is not actually grant permission to any individual unit in those factions. Compare the card's checkmark with the explicit permission in the AoD Supplement or the explicit permission in the 7th Edition BRB granting access to Santic and Malefic Daemonology. Obviously, from a rules perspective, putting out the card deck (including a quick reference sheet) is insuficient and an explicit rule granting permission to access is required.

Rules and advertising do not match - that is the cause of the confusion. Advertising for all factions pinns them as AWESOME, but we all know that advertising has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I stand by my original comment that your just trying to find problems that aren't there.

Seriously, which units do YOU think would be able to use the new powers? That's rhetorical by the way. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that's not trying to make an issue out of nothing.

The cards are optional, sure. But they are still a supplement to the game, the stuff contained within them are still rules for the game. And those rules clearly state the psychic powers are available to all the various marine factions.

 jokerkd wrote:
...
I also don't know why you would think it more likely that the card AND the web page are mistaken as opposed to the book. clearly one is wrong, but I don't try to claim that I know which one

Quite simply because I bought and read the Angels of Death book. It states right on there that it is a Supplement for Codex Space Marines (see attachment).
Every Formation, every warlord trait, every relic, every Psychic Discipline, yes every bit of fluff is marked as pertaining to Codex Space Marines.
There is not a single word mentioned in the whole book about Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels or Grey Knights.

 General Kroll wrote:
I stand by my original comment that your just trying to find problems that aren't there.
Seriously, which units do YOU think would be able to use the new powers? That's rhetorical by the way. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that's not trying to make an issue out of nothing.

The issue is quite frankly that nobody else attempts to use powers or gear from other codices without detachments from those codices.
The problem isn't me, it's people who don't bother to read the rules or deliberately ignore them to their benefit.

Also, assuming there is more than one unit with the psyker rule in the factions trying to assimilate these powers, who is to say that each of these units will get access?
The reference card tick only means - or used to mean - that at least one unit in that faction, somehow (e.g. artifact) has (or will have, in the future) permission to access the discipline.
It does not detail which though, for that you have to buy the rules.

 General Kroll wrote:

The cards are optional, sure. But they are still a supplement to the game, the stuff contained within them are still rules for the game. And those rules clearly state the psychic powers are available to all the various marine factions.

The individual power cards do carry a copy of the rules found in the book for convenience. The deck is NOT marked as a supplement, unlike actual (rule/game) supplements. It isn't a game expansion by itself.

The rules in the angels of death specifically state that units from the Codex:Space Marines can use them. So basically only space marine librarians can use them.

Doesn't matter for BA, because we can't field enough psykers to do anything anyway.

My GK codex says that my Libby can roll on a few specific disciplines. The new 4 are not included in that rule.
Generating from a discipline I do not have permission to generate from is not allowed.

Maybe this will help clarify:
If you think that GK can generate the new powers, which units in the GK book can do so?
And specifically, can or cannot Draigo generate from Fulmination?
If he can't, is it because his unit entry doesn't let him? If this is the case, the GK Libby's unit entry also does not let him generate from Fulmination. Why are you treating the two similar (identical?) situations differently?

My play group is going with the cards.

Your GK libbies can’t generate psychic powers from dark angels interomancy for the the same reason they can’t generate from librarius and fulmination. They are codex specific powers. No worries though. Librarius conclave is available to all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
My play group is going with the cards.

Let me guess - they play space wolves...?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Your GK libbies can’t generate psychic powers from dark angels interomancy for the the same reason they can’t generate from librarius and fulmination. They are codex specific powers. No worries though. Librarius conclave is available to all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
My play group is going with the cards.

Let me guess - they play space wolves...?

Some of them do. But just in general, the more things to be abused, the better I guess. As I said, doesn't really help me anyway, so the Xenos don't have to worry about their perfect records.

I feel like GW gives its player way too much credit. They apparently thought we were smart enough to figure out this vague yet obvious rules "issue".

Yes, we Blood Angels are far too powerful already to use these cards. Wouldn't want to break the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't matter for BA, because we can't field enough psykers to do anything anyway.

I tried them out with just two Librarians and had some success. Fulmination on Mephiston was pretty fun.

I guess they would work vs Tau.

 EnTyme wrote:
I feel like GW gives its player way too much credit. They apparently thought we were smart enough to figure out this vague yet obvious rules "issue".

Yeah, it's clear from threads like this that some players need their hands held on every little rules query.

Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

I understand the RAW of the supplement says C:SM. What I don't understand is the argument people are trying to use that's essentially "If RAI was for all of them to use it, why doesn't it say so in their codex entries?"

Because supplements come out later, and alter existing rules. This is not an actual argument pertaining to whether or not GK are supposed to be able to use these powers. This is just saying "preexisting rules say THIS." The debate is whether or not this supplement changes those preexisting rules, not what the preexisting rules are.

That said, if I were to bring my BA and wanted to use these powers, and my opponent got all rules-lawyer on me, I'd probably just say forget it and move on. I really don't think this issue is worth being this nitpicky about. If I own something, and can point to other places, where the creator says I can use it, I see no reason anyone should expect me to not use it if I'd like. As far as the OP's question, Librarians is my answer. Now that would get muddy with named characters, I guess. And HIWPI is just that any space marine (all factions) psyker would be fine, just because it's all for kicks anyway. Tournaments will of course have their own guidelines that I won't argue with.

Hopefully I don't sound argumentative. These are my opinions. The format of the OP is asking opinions, [snip argumentative sounding portion]. Feel good! It's 40k and it's a blast!

I wouldn't really call it rules lawering. The supplement is for codex space marines and it is explicit in stating that units from codex space marines have access to all the powers in the supplement. In the supplement it does not state BA, SW, GK, and DA have access to these powers. A pack of reference cards supposedly states that these chapters do have access...the debate is - do psychic cards hold the weight of rules? I would say no. I am not biased here...I am a GK player after all and these powers really help GK out BIG TIME. Plus - libby conclave exists...

 Xenomancers wrote:
I wouldn't really call it rules lawering. The supplement is for codex space marines and it is explicit in stating that units from codex space marines have access to all the powers in the supplement. In the supplement it does not state BA, SW, GK, and DA have access to these powers. A pack of reference cards supposedly states that these chapters do have access...the debate is - do psychic cards hold the weight of rules? I would say no. I am not biased here...I am a GK player after all and these powers really help GK out BIG TIME. Plus - libby conclave exists...

You're right, calling it rules lawyering is probably going too far. The supplement says C:SM only, but if someone buys it because the site and cards tell us we can use it, I would still consider it being somewhat of a donkey cave move to tell a person no.

And yeah, libby conclave exists, for people that want to use it. But if I wanted to use just a librarian dreadnought rolling technomancy (viability and fun levels irrelevant for this discussion), and see "Oh wow I can buy the supplement, it says it's for everyone!" only to have someone tell me "No I refuse to allow you to do this in a casual game," I wouldn't be very happy and really don't see the need. Is it GW's fault there's any confusion at all? Yes. So as usual in this situation, opinions will vary, and you'll have to talk it out with your opponent.

I actually agree that reference cards don't substitute as rules. And neither do product descriptions on a website. But people are buying the book and cards in good faith that they can use them. Who does it hurt? (Don't use that statement to slide down slippery slopes, anyone, please.)

It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

BossJakadakk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

Lucky you.

 EnTyme wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

Lucky you.

Yup.

I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

I may be. It actually does advertise in the description that the powers can be used by SW, etc., though. I checked the GW page for Angels of Death before posting here to make sure I remembered it correctly.

"-four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch"

And then the cards.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

I may be. It actually does advertise in the description that the powers can be used by SW, etc., though. I checked the GW page for Angels of Death before posting here to make sure I remembered it correctly.

"-four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch"

And then the cards.

As I included in my summary, yes, GW does advertise access to the disciplines for the four special, non-spikey marine factions.
Question (tongue-in-cheek): if I buy a decorative sword on Amazon with the description "real Excalibur, grants the right to rule England" and find out that the English beg to differ - is the problem that they are being obtuse or might misleading advertising be root cause?

Now obviously, the hypothetical decorative swords salesman is unlikely to be able to correct his false advertising by bringing those Englishmen to heel. In that respect the situation with GW is different. Even if the root cause is some moronic mistake made after the SM-Supplement went to print and before the stuff hit the website, they can - by issuing an edict commonly known as FAQ - make it so that the apparent marketing mess becomes fact. On the bright side, this would of course mollify all the people who's expectations were raised, while on the flip side, it would shift the codex balance from bad to worse.

Posts like these make me think sometimes we need to take a breath and just play the game for the reason we all started it.

Which probably wasn't to debate thin grey lines.