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If TWC and Wuflen weren't so crazy, it wouldn't matter as much. GW's mistakes compound on themselves.

HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

 General Kroll wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

Is this really a discussion? The cards are a part of the game released specifically for games of 40K, and the cards clearly state that the other specific chapters can use them. end of story.

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

It's an explicit power card vs an implicit "no" from the book. I honestly don't know. How can GW screw up something so simple?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

That sounds like a trap question, but I will answer it anyway.

The chart below grants Grey Knights access to the Fulmination powers, yes.

However, Strike Squads, as you well know, have access to: with Hammerhand and Force powers (correct?), and that's it. I would not say that they get it.

HIWPI, part 2. Grey Knight Librarians could. Other Grey knights that have access to multiple disciplines rather than a few very specific powers could, too. If there are any.

Martel732 wrote:
...
I honestly don't know. How can GW screw up something so simple?

Teamwork? I mean, it appears to me that:
1) some writers wrote a nice and concise codex supplement.
2) someone copy-pasted the powers into the card template and had to fill out the quick reference card. <- My guess is that person is ignorant of "Space Marine Faction" being a defined term from the BRB rather than an attempt to describe all good guy power armor factions
3) Other people got the marketing stuff started, wrote the copy for the website, basing themselves on the book and deciding to shoe-horn the output of (2) in.

I don't want to attribute to malice what can be explained by people messing up. That is why I guess that whoever copy-pasta-ed the cards is the cuplrit.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

As I'm sure you know, strike squads cannot generate from ANY discipline. So this is a terrible way to try and get your point across

 Sheit27 wrote:
Posts like these make me think sometimes we need to take a breath and just play the game for the reason we all started it.

Which probably wasn't to debate thin grey lines.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course it would help if those grey lines weren't there for people to try and exploit and try to turn the game into an episode of Judge Judy.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

I reject the assertion that I've called anyone names, by all means report the offending post if you truly believe that's what I've been doing. As for your demands that I answer what units I think can take these powers I think it's pretty obvious, that any psyker (from the relevant factions) that doesn't have a specific power listed on their dataslate can take them.

Could GW have made this all a bit clearer? Sure, have you ever read a GW rule book that couldn't use a tidy up? But is it easy enough to pick out what was clearly intended here? Of course it is.

Like others have said, let's just play the damn game and have fun.

Oh and by the way, it's completely possible to be both calm, rational and unreasonable at the same time.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

Description:
A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers

They are clearly lying about their own products, right? This topic is a prime example of people wanting to find problems where there are none.

 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

That sounds like a trap question, but I will answer it anyway.

The chart below grants Grey Knights access to the Fulmination powers, yes.

However, Strike Squads, as you well know, have access to: with Hammerhand and Force powers (correct?), and that's it. I would not say that they get it.

HIWPI, part 2. Grey Knight Librarians could. Other Grey knights that have access to multiple disciplines rather than a few very specific powers could, too. If there are any.

If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

 kronk wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

You and I are, yes.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 kronk wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

You and I are, yes.

Great! I'm off for a beer, then!

Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

Okay man, you do you!

I would say having preset powers makes you unable to use the reference card because having preset powers historically has prevented units from using other reference cards, but it's all HIWPI and that's just my personal reasoning.

Because having preset powers means you cannot generate any powers at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thankfully, TO's, store managers, and my own gaming group are ok with it.

Like I said before, RAW, without specified units, it doesn't work. RAI however, is very, very clear. Maybe some people expected the faqs to be out by now. Who knows?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

Probably because that is what it states under the section of "Generating Psychic Powers"?

Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

According to my digital codex they can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

The refererence card begs to differ.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

I don't see the willy-nillyness. No one is saying my eldar are taking geomancy with absolutely nothing backing it up. This is a specific situation with specific things involved.

It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

The specific power cards are more compelling. And apparently it's RAI for sure in this case.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

Nor do the datasheets state you cannot add Disciplines, as someone pointed out, previously.

In most cases, yes, it is what is on the datasheet. However, this supplement adds to those list of Discipliness normally available in those cases where they do generate randomly from a Discipline instead of the specific list(s) of Powers.

As an official item made by the producer of all products involved, it has merit.

According to General Kroll, space marines are able to summon daemons.

The intention seems to be that all chapters would have access based on the card and what the site says. They printed the book differently than they claim it is.

You keep talking about my interpretation of the card, I've barely even mentioned it. I'm mostly going off the site descriptions for the deck (which does include the card I know, but that's not what I'm basing my HIWPI on) and book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my HIWPI is that if someone in good faith bought the book (because unless they're seeing specific forums like this one where it's pointed out that the book says C:SM ONLY) for the new powers, when GW is TELLING US ALL that all chapters get to use them, I'd let them use it.

Remember that people are buying the book and cards under the impression that they're allowed to use them. An impression given to them by the maker of the product. An impression only proven wrong by one sentence that will be overlooked by multitudes of people as they skip past it to read the powers that they've already been told they can use.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

What are you talking about? Conclaves CAN take daemonology!

Not only does the rulebook state that all psykers other than tyranids can take daemonology, but i believe that every codex faq since 7th dropped has added it aswell


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

I must have missed this one earlier. This is simply not true and does nothing but diminish the credibility of your argument

BossJakadakk wrote:
As an official item made by the producer of all products involved, it has merit.

According to General Kroll, space marines are able to summon daemons.

The intention seems to be that all chapters would have access based on the card and what the site says. They printed the book differently than they claim it is.

You keep talking about my interpretation of the card, I've barely even mentioned it. I'm mostly going off the site descriptions for the deck (which does include the card I know, but that's not what I'm basing my HIWPI on) and book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my HIWPI is that if someone in good faith bought the book (because unless they're seeing specific forums like this one where it's pointed out that the book says C:SM ONLY) for the new powers, when GW is TELLING US ALL that all chapters get to use them, I'd let them use it.

Remember that people are buying the book and cards under the impression that they're allowed to use them. An impression given to them by the maker of the product. An impression only proven wrong by one sentence that will be overlooked by multitudes of people as they skip past it to read the powers that they've already been told they can use.

Indeed. It is a whole case of allowing the supplement or not. Either you allow the supplement, and it adding the Psychic Powers as needed, or you do not, at which point none of the detachments are available either. You cannot have it both ways.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

What are you talking about? Conclaves CAN take daemonology!

Not only does the rulebook state that all psykers other than tyranids can take daemonology, but i believe that every codex faq since 7th dropped has added it aswell


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

I must have missed this one earlier. This is simply not true and does nothing but diminish the credibility of your argument

I own every chapters codex and astra militarum. Not a single unit with deamonolgy malefic listed. They were all released at the same time or after the rulebook. Every psyker has a list of what powers they can chose from and demonology malefic is specifically omitted because they aren't intended to use it - for obvious reasons. GW had ample opportunity to correct any errors or omissions they left out in every codex release...yet did nothing. So you still want to say space marine librarians can summon daemons from demonology? Okay...you win.