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I've got the CSM codex, new Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements

The Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter both state that any CSM detachment or formation can also be a Black Legion (or Crimson Slaughter) formation and can take relics from both.

So, if you choose to do this from both supplements then you could combine relics from all 3 books on one character?

Can't really find anything that would not allow that and want to confirm before making a list with mixed Crimson Slaughter/Black Legion relics.

Thanks!

Does the rule actually say that tho?

Ya thats what it says - I'm at work so can't quote it but I looked it over very thoroughly last night and thats exactly what it says in both. (I can quote when I go home later)

So.. how will you go about having VOTLW and not having it at the same time?

They both say that "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a _______________ Detachment or Formation."

However, "Units in [the] Black Legion [...] that have the option to take the Veterans of the Long War rule must do so", while "No units in [the] Crimson Slaughter [...] can have the Veterans of the Long War rule except Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines."

So, RAW, unless I missed a Chaos Space Marine Character that does not have the VotLW rule either as an option or as part of its Datasheet, there is no character that can fulfill both requirements and also have access to the Artifacts.

Ah thanks Avadar for clearing that up.

*** I'm an idiot***

Judging by the draft faq that just came out, I'm not sure they actually intend for 1 model to take more than one artifact.

Though if this was the case, it wouldn't have been hard to say "either" book instead of "both"

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So.. how will you go about having VOTLW and not having it at the same time?

I suppose you'd be limited to things that come with it (thousand sons, daemon princes, etc), don't have the option (vehicles, cultists, etc) or are cult troopers (zerks, plaguies and noisies).

So you could mix both supplements and the codex relics onto a demon prince it looks like. You just need to put him in a CAD with 2 units of cultists and say he is all 3 at once. Some interesting combos in there.

Crimson slaughter detachments cannot take daemon princes any more.

It's technically possible but neither of our detachments or formations allow it. You would nee d an army of berzerkers/noise marines /plague marines and the rest would be cultists or some kind of armour and chaos spawn. All our HQs can either take VotLW or have it automatically. All our formations /detachments require some unit that can take VotLW. Well, except Ciphers formation I guess, cuz those chosen can't take VotLW in the dataslate.

So the only way to have all three is to go unbound.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Crimson slaughter detachments cannot take daemon princes any more.

Why? It looks like you could just take a CAD with a prince and 2 cultists squads and call it a crimson slaughter detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:
It's technically possible but neither of our detachments or formations allow it. You would nee d an army of berzerkers/noise marines /plague marines and the rest would be cultists or some kind of armour and chaos spawn. All our HQs can either take VotLW or have it automatically. All our formations /detachments require some unit that can take VotLW. Well, except Ciphers formation I guess, cuz those chosen can't take VotLW in the dataslate.

So the only way to have all three is to go unbound.

I wouldn't do the whole army - just an allied detachment or CAD with a prince and 2 cultist squads and just give the prince some crazy relic combos from the 2 supplements and the codex combined. Then the other formations/detachments would just be black legion or crimson just not both.

Its pretty much to to make a crazy demon prince.

The FAQ says one relic so it's a no go

Oldmike wrote:
The FAQ says one relic so it's a no go

The CSM codex says you can choose 'items' (plural) from the artifacts list which I think is sufficient to fall under the FAQ where it says unless you have permission to take multiple. Also they are not called relics, they are called artifacts.

Also, to make Krannon from the Crimson Slaughter artefacts you have to choose the sword, daemonheart, and the horns. (I know its not justification but just a side note to think of)

Roknar wrote:
It's technically possible but neither of our detachments or formations allow it. You would nee d an army of berzerkers/noise marines /plague marines and the rest would be cultists or some kind of armour and chaos spawn. All our HQs can either take VotLW or have it automatically. All our formations /detachments require some unit that can take VotLW. Well, except Ciphers formation I guess, cuz those chosen can't take VotLW in the dataslate.

So the only way to have all three is to go unbound.

I think CS are allowed options that come with VOTLW default, they just can't take it where it is optional (zerk/plague/noise aside). IIRC my old version codex specifically talks about having special characters in a CS army.

Note: I don't think it is the intention to be able to double down on supplements, so I wouldn't recommend it, even if it is hypothetically possible.

In the Crimson Slaughter supplement no unit may HAVE the VotLW rule, except for some of the cult units.
A daemon prince already has VotLW stock, so he/she/it may not be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment.

Every Special character already has it too, so you can't take any of those either. CS may only choose from a lord/sorc/warpmsith or Apostle. And each of those MAY take VotLW which prevents you from making them both BL and CS. This means that we can't take any HQ that is both and since only csm detachments/formations can be also be both supplement factions, we can't take a CAD or allied detachment, nor can we use the purge or kharns butcherhorde. The only options for this are the helbrute formations and ciphers formation, which don't gain anyhting at all for being Black Legion.

And that goes for unbound too. It's only interesting for character that can access relics, ie. HQ's. And none can be both due to VotLW, making it a moot point that a cultist can be both.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
The FAQ says one relic so it's a no go

The CSM codex says you can choose 'items' (plural) from the artifacts list which I think is sufficient to fall under the FAQ where it says unless you have permission to take multiple. Also they are not called relics, they are called artifacts.

Also, to make Krannon from the Crimson Slaughter artefacts you have to choose the sword, daemonheart, and the horns. (I know its not justification but just a side note to think of)

The FAQ says relics are limited to one per eligible character unless otherwise stated, which isn't a necessary thing to say as (to my knowledge) all codexes let you know whether you can take one or more than one. If any codexes weren't explicit in their wording then that should be a codex specific FAQ and not a general one.

The CSM codex says "a model can replace one weapon with one of the following. Only one of each Chaos Artifact can be taken per army". Surely that means that the relic-eligible HQ's are limited to a single artifact?

Where the army list entry for eligible characters says "may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Chaos Rewards, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chaos Artifacts sections of the wargear list" the plural "items" is referring to the multiple sections of the wargear list that the character has access to, it isn't referring to the number of items you can take from those lists. The number of melee and ranged weapons, rewards and artifacts you can take are limited by the wording in their respective parts of the wargear list.

xlDuke wrote:
The FAQ says relics are limited to one per eligible character unless otherwise stated, which isn't a necessary thing to say as (to my knowledge) all codexes let you know whether you can take one or more than one. If any codexes weren't explicit in their wording then that should be a codex specific FAQ and not a general one.

You've not seen the countless discussions then where many claim that the statement "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following..." was actually a ratio and not a set limit and therefore could trade two weapons for two relics and so on and so forth. It was a needed FAQ and applies to multiple codices.

What I would like clarification on is can a Sorcerer from Crimson Slaughter take both the Balestar of Mannon and the Deamon heart armor, since one is an artifact and the other is wargear?

Roknar wrote:
In the Crimson Slaughter supplement no unit may HAVE the VotLW rule, except for some of the cult units.
A daemon prince already has VotLW stock, so he/she/it may not be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment.

Every Special character already has it too, so you can't take any of those either. CS may only choose from a lord/sorc/warpmsith or Apostle. And each of those MAY take VotLW which prevents you from making them both BL and CS. This means that we can't take any HQ that is both and since only csm detachments/formations can be also be both supplement factions, we can't take a CAD or allied detachment, nor can we use the purge or kharns butcherhorde. The only options for this are the helbrute formations and ciphers formation, which don't gain anyhting at all for being Black Legion.

And that goes for unbound too. It's only interesting for character that can access relics, ie. HQ's. And none can be both due to VotLW, making it a moot point that a cultist can be both.

I don't know why you emphasised the word 'have', in my supplement at least the phrasing is 'the only units that can take the VotLW special rule', which isn't quite the same. I've always interpreted 'take' to mean 'take the option' rather than 'have the special rule' (i.e. so CS detachments could take a unit of thousand sons as they don't have the option to take VOTLW they just have it, which makes sense as the other 3 cult units are allowed (and allowed with votlw). I was actually surprised when it was first pointed out that take could be interpreted differently to how I had read it, but I've stuck with my interpretation. Looking at your flag, perhaps you are using a non-English version which translates take to have?

As to my previous post, it turns out I mis-remembered and it is actually the Black Legion supplement that reminds you there is no restriction against taking the non-black legion characters in a black legion detachment. If you are going with the 'may use non-optional votlw units' interpretation, then there is no reason you couldn't take the special characters in Crimson Slaughter too.

 Ghaz wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
The FAQ says relics are limited to one per eligible character unless otherwise stated, which isn't a necessary thing to say as (to my knowledge) all codexes let you know whether you can take one or more than one. If any codexes weren't explicit in their wording then that should be a codex specific FAQ and not a general one.

You've not seen the countless discussions then where many claim that the statement "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following..." was actually a ratio and not a set limit and therefore could trade two weapons for two relics and so on and so forth. It was a needed FAQ and applies to multiple codices.

I've not seen those discussions and I'm surprised to hear it gets debated, me and my CSM buddy always took it to mean one relic per character. If it's contentious then I hope I haven't caused the thread to go too far off-topic. If it's something that people debated about then this "unless specified otherwise" FAQ won't stop the discussion on the matter because those people who think you can take multiple relics would consider the wording to specify otherwise - which is why I think it would be better handled as codex specific FAQs instead.

There's numerous debates about it here in YMDC if you're so inclined to look.

will do, thanks

nareik wrote:

Roknar wrote:
In the Crimson Slaughter supplement no unit may HAVE the VotLW rule, except for some of the cult units.
A daemon prince already has VotLW stock, so he/she/it may not be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment.

Every Special character already has it too, so you can't take any of those either. CS may only choose from a lord/sorc/warpmsith or Apostle. And each of those MAY take VotLW which prevents you from making them both BL and CS. This means that we can't take any HQ that is both and since only csm detachments/formations can be also be both supplement factions, we can't take a CAD or allied detachment, nor can we use the purge or kharns butcherhorde. The only options for this are the helbrute formations and ciphers formation, which don't gain anyhting at all for being Black Legion.

And that goes for unbound too. It's only interesting for character that can access relics, ie. HQ's. And none can be both due to VotLW, making it a moot point that a cultist can be both.

I don't know why you emphasised the word 'have', in my supplement at least the phrasing is 'the only units that can take the VotLW special rule', which isn't quite the same. I've always interpreted 'take' to mean 'take the option' rather than 'have the special rule' (i.e. so CS detachments could take a unit of thousand sons as they don't have the option to take VOTLW they just have it, which makes sense as the other 3 cult units are allowed (and allowed with votlw). I was actually surprised when it was first pointed out that take could be interpreted differently to how I had read it, but I've stuck with my interpretation. Looking at your flag, perhaps you are using a non-English version which translates take to have?

As to my previous post, it turns out I mis-remembered and it is actually the Black Legion supplement that reminds you there is no restriction against taking the non-black legion characters in a black legion detachment. If you are going with the 'may use non-optional votlw units' interpretation, then there is no reason you couldn't take the special characters in Crimson Slaughter too.

I have the english printed supplement in front of me. They changed the text from the previous run. Before it was:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
When choosing a Crimson Slaughter detachment, the only units that can take the Veterans of the Long War special rule are Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

Now it reads:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
No units in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment or Formation may have the Veterans of the Long War special rule except Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

So with this new release, all special characters are illegal for CS, as is the daemon prince. This is RAW however. They still say that a daemon prince can't take daemonheart for example, which makes no sense since they wouldn't be able to take a daemon prince in the first place. Make of that what you want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It kinda makes sense that they would do this though, especially with the demon prince. Renegade marines generally don't ascend to daemonhood when they turn traitor. Never understood why Berserkers and friends were allowed to be taken. They don't really fit the crimson slaughter fluff imho. They don't figure in any of the formations either. *shrug*

Roknar wrote:

It kinda makes sense that they would do this though, especially with the demon prince. Renegade marines generally don't ascend to daemonhood when they turn traitor. Never understood why Berserkers and friends were allowed to be taken. They don't really fit the crimson slaughter fluff imho. They don't figure in any of the formations either. *shrug*

Because.....the chaos gods are fickle? haha sry had to be said

Roknar wrote:

nareik wrote:

Roknar wrote:
In the Crimson Slaughter supplement no unit may HAVE the VotLW rule, except for some of the cult units.
A daemon prince already has VotLW stock, so he/she/it may not be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment.

Every Special character already has it too, so you can't take any of those either. CS may only choose from a lord/sorc/warpmsith or Apostle. And each of those MAY take VotLW which prevents you from making them both BL and CS. This means that we can't take any HQ that is both and since only csm detachments/formations can be also be both supplement factions, we can't take a CAD or allied detachment, nor can we use the purge or kharns butcherhorde. The only options for this are the helbrute formations and ciphers formation, which don't gain anyhting at all for being Black Legion.

And that goes for unbound too. It's only interesting for character that can access relics, ie. HQ's. And none can be both due to VotLW, making it a moot point that a cultist can be both.

I don't know why you emphasised the word 'have', in my supplement at least the phrasing is 'the only units that can take the VotLW special rule', which isn't quite the same. I've always interpreted 'take' to mean 'take the option' rather than 'have the special rule' (i.e. so CS detachments could take a unit of thousand sons as they don't have the option to take VOTLW they just have it, which makes sense as the other 3 cult units are allowed (and allowed with votlw). I was actually surprised when it was first pointed out that take could be interpreted differently to how I had read it, but I've stuck with my interpretation. Looking at your flag, perhaps you are using a non-English version which translates take to have?

As to my previous post, it turns out I mis-remembered and it is actually the Black Legion supplement that reminds you there is no restriction against taking the non-black legion characters in a black legion detachment. If you are going with the 'may use non-optional votlw units' interpretation, then there is no reason you couldn't take the special characters in Crimson Slaughter too.

I have the english printed supplement in front of me. They changed the text from the previous run. Before it was:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
When choosing a Crimson Slaughter detachment, the only units that can take the Veterans of the Long War special rule are Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

Now it reads:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
No units in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment or Formation may have the Veterans of the Long War special rule except Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

So with this new release, all special characters are illegal for CS, as is the daemon prince. This is RAW however. They still say that a daemon prince can't take daemonheart for example, which makes no sense since they wouldn't be able to take a daemon prince in the first place. Make of that what you want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It kinda makes sense that they would do this though, especially with the demon prince. Renegade marines generally don't ascend to daemonhood when they turn traitor. Never understood why Berserkers and friends were allowed to be taken. They don't really fit the crimson slaughter fluff imho. They don't figure in any of the formations either. *shrug*

That is very interesting, thank you for pointing out that change! Definitely one for the FAQ, with that 'not be taken by DPs' contradiction. I assume you can still create daemon princes by upgrading characters through chaos boon rolls?

Huh...that's...huh lol. Hadn't thought about that. I imagine that rule only counts towards building your army. I suppose that would just fall under the "fickle chaos gods" rule lol

nareik wrote:

Roknar wrote:

nareik wrote:

Roknar wrote:
In the Crimson Slaughter supplement no unit may HAVE the VotLW rule, except for some of the cult units.
A daemon prince already has VotLW stock, so he/she/it may not be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment.

Every Special character already has it too, so you can't take any of those either. CS may only choose from a lord/sorc/warpmsith or Apostle. And each of those MAY take VotLW which prevents you from making them both BL and CS. This means that we can't take any HQ that is both and since only csm detachments/formations can be also be both supplement factions, we can't take a CAD or allied detachment, nor can we use the purge or kharns butcherhorde. The only options for this are the helbrute formations and ciphers formation, which don't gain anyhting at all for being Black Legion.

And that goes for unbound too. It's only interesting for character that can access relics, ie. HQ's. And none can be both due to VotLW, making it a moot point that a cultist can be both.

I don't know why you emphasised the word 'have', in my supplement at least the phrasing is 'the only units that can take the VotLW special rule', which isn't quite the same. I've always interpreted 'take' to mean 'take the option' rather than 'have the special rule' (i.e. so CS detachments could take a unit of thousand sons as they don't have the option to take VOTLW they just have it, which makes sense as the other 3 cult units are allowed (and allowed with votlw). I was actually surprised when it was first pointed out that take could be interpreted differently to how I had read it, but I've stuck with my interpretation. Looking at your flag, perhaps you are using a non-English version which translates take to have?

As to my previous post, it turns out I mis-remembered and it is actually the Black Legion supplement that reminds you there is no restriction against taking the non-black legion characters in a black legion detachment. If you are going with the 'may use non-optional votlw units' interpretation, then there is no reason you couldn't take the special characters in Crimson Slaughter too.

I have the english printed supplement in front of me. They changed the text from the previous run. Before it was:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
When choosing a Crimson Slaughter detachment, the only units that can take the Veterans of the Long War special rule are Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

Now it reads:

RENEGADES OF THE DARK MILLENNIUM
No units in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment or Formation may have the Veterans of the Long War special rule except Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

So with this new release, all special characters are illegal for CS, as is the daemon prince. This is RAW however. They still say that a daemon prince can't take daemonheart for example, which makes no sense since they wouldn't be able to take a daemon prince in the first place. Make of that what you want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It kinda makes sense that they would do this though, especially with the demon prince. Renegade marines generally don't ascend to daemonhood when they turn traitor. Never understood why Berserkers and friends were allowed to be taken. They don't really fit the crimson slaughter fluff imho. They don't figure in any of the formations either. *shrug*

That is very interesting, thank you for pointing out that change! Definitely one for the FAQ, with that 'not be taken by DPs' contradiction. I assume you can still create daemon princes by upgrading characters through chaos boon rolls?

Lol actually in the book there is literally one line that says (and Im paraphrasing) "oh yeah, so after the crimson slaughter became more renown some khorn beserkers wanted to join"

That is literally the extent of the fluff that mentions khorn beserkers

lol