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 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

Orks got toned down at the start of 7th, and then other armies got buffed starting with Necrons. That's what's wrong.

You know what would be fun? If every Painboy had the ability to "Pile on Da Pain", which is currently only available in that special formation from the Orks Start Collecting box. And if you bring Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can Pile on Da Pain every turn.

 Matthew wrote:
I think I have a few ideas for 'fixing' Orks:

First of all, make Boyz S4. It's ridiculous that they're as strong as simple 'umies.

Maybe lower the price to 5 points.

Maybe they should be able to buy a Big Choppa for every 5 Orks in the squad.

Maybe lower Nob prices?

Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system but for Ork clans. Maybe 4 different ones, each giving a buff applying to its corresponding tribe. Maybe

Evil Sunz/Red Paint Job: Unit may run 6 inches and charges 6+1D6 inches

Deathskulls/Blue Paint: Unit may re-roll any die once a turn.

Goffs/Armour Plates: Units receives a 6+ FnP

Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Also, what about a Dakka Dakka rule for Big Shootas and other big guns? Maybe for every pair ofsixes youg et when rolling makes the target go to ground.

Does this sound good?

I think that STR 3 is appropriate. relativer to humans they are probably stronger, but certainly not as strong as Space Marine servo enginves or Necron Machines and so on. STR 4 is super human strength and i just dont think orks have that. So i support them being STR 3 relative to the rest of the 40K universe.

I like the Big Choppa idea. Perhaps every 10. 5 seems kinda extreme but yeah, giving them that extra OOMPH with a semi-special weapon seems like a fair tradeoff instead of the STR boost.

I definitely would love to see more in-game benefits for choosing a Klan but you INSTANTLY run into the problem of one Klan becoming preiminent for advantage. Klan benefits that are minor would be a better move but the way GW does things... Well I doubtr seriously that would happen.

An example though might be that BadMoons get 10 points of the cost of Vehicles and 1 point off the cost of vehicle upgrades. Not as extreme as a battle company but its still cool. But with it comes some kind of downside. For example, the BadMoons HAVE to take at least three units of Gretchin because lord knows they wouldnt be caught dead without servants around. I dunno. Something minor but flavorful.

And I would love it if the ones that like StormBoyz (Goffs?) were able to try and attack flyers when their Stormboyz Deep Strike! How fun would that be. Lol. Call it "Charge from the skies" or something and let each member of the unit take a single STR 4 swipe at its rear armor, and any successful hits, damaging or otherwise kills the associated Ork. I can just imagine a bunch of Kamikaze orks being dropped from above and pouncing on a plane until it explodes on them. Anyone who didint hit keeps falling and finishes the deep strike as normal.

Anyways, stuff like that. That would be fun.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

I acknowledged that it takes more effort and you act as if i didn't just to pick a fight. What's your problem? Looking for a fight seems pointless.

Where I stop short and people like you DON'T stop short is saying that given Codex X, you're screwed against Codex Y. THAT is just a losing mentality.

As a longtime competitive blah blah blah, I've won tournaments you say i shouldn't have and I've beaten lists you say i shouldn't have using lists I had no business using in your opinion. At some point, my medals outweigh your skepticism.

Stop picking fights dude. I think we all agree the ork codex can use some help, i think I was pretty clear on my ideas and I dont think i ever gave the impression that there wasn't a need for improvement. Pretending I DID say any of those things so you can snipe at me for something i DIDNT say is dumb.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

I acknowledged that it takes more effort and you act as if i didn't just to pick a fight. What's your problem? Looking for a fight seems pointless.

Where I stop short and people like you DON'T stop short is saying that given Codex X, you're screwed against Codex Y. THAT is just a losing mentality.

Assuming equivalent cheese builds, Codex X WILL beat Codex Y, 3/4 times. That's a fact. That's why in most tournaments people bring X number of Eldar, X number of Tau, X number of Space marines, and 1 or 2 Orks or Tyranids.

As a longtime competitive blah blah blah, I've won tournaments you say i shouldn't have and I've beaten lists you say i shouldn't have using lists I had no business using in your opinion. At some point, my medals outweigh your skepticism.

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

Stop picking fights dude. I think we all agree the ork codex can use some help, i think I was pretty clear on my ideas and I dont think i ever gave the impression that there wasn't a need for improvement. Pretending I DID say any of those things so you can snipe at me for something i DIDNT say is dumb.

You said this:

Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

You said this: Orks win championships. Hehehe.. In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

That...is me...implying... nothing?

Tongue in cheek is a thing. Your willful inability to detect it is not my problem. Your wish to pick a fight over nothing however is my problem.

"Anecdotal? There are 1500 people currently ranked in the ITC. Where do you sit on that list? I'll tell you where i sit: high enough not to care about whether you think its anecdotal, as of this last update. Lol.

I don't give a rip if you THINK I'm good or bad. last time i checked, this forum allowed any one of any skill or luck to post ideas, opinions or pictures, even you. It also, in theory, protects people who do and when that promise breaks down, I guess we gotta have this chat. But the LAST guy on that ITC list has as much right to post as you do and when he does, one hopes you'll be nicer to him than you are to me. Or not. Up to you. But you seem to feel justified in attacking me just because I do things differently than you and I hold my ground when you say I'm wrong. I just don't think that's enough reason to come at me, frankly. But I can certainly travel down this road if you really want to.

Do you wanna talk about orks, or my ITC standing? I can go either way. Up to you.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

You said this: Orks win championships. Hehehe.. In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

That...is me...implying... nothing?

Tongue in cheek is a thing. Your willful inability to detect it is not my problem. Your wish to pick a fight over nothing however is my problem.

"Anecdotal? There are 1500 people currently ranked in the ITC. Where do you sit on that list? I'll tell you where i sit: high enough not to care about whether you think its anecdotal, as of this last update. Lol.

I don't give a rip if you THINK I'm good or bad. last time i checked, this forum allowed any one of any skill or luck to post ideas, opinions or pictures, even you. It also, in theory, protects people who do and when that promise breaks down, I guess we gotta have this chat. But the LAST guy on that ITC list has as much right to post as you do and when he does, one hopes you'll be nicer to him than you are to me. Or not. Up to you. But you seem to feel justified in attacking me just because I do things differently than you and I hold my ground when you say I'm wrong. I just don't think that's enough reason to come at me, frankly. But I can certainly travel down this road if you really want to.

Do you wanna talk about orks, or my ITC standing? I can go either way. Up to you.

I would actually love to talk about your ITC standing and whether or not you brought Orks. First, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I'm attacking anyone who uses or SEEMS to use the L2P defense. It's an internet forum, barring a few lines of text, it's hard for me to tell whether you're being serious or not. Second, I find it funny you think I'm attacking you, when you got defensive first.

Finally, on to the ITC, this is old news from 2015, but relevant. A gentleman collected all the ITC rankings and sorted them by factions. Orks, while having a decent number of players at 35, only one made it in the Top 30 and none made it into the Top 10. So no, I don't think Orks can win championships, even with the most skilled of generals.

Despite apparently not using the faction, I've gotten L2P arguments from Jancoran with BA as well. This thread is not surprising.

Your reaction isn't either. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


I would actually love to talk about your ITC standing and whether or not you brought Orks. First, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I'm attacking anyone who uses or SEEMS to use the L2P defense. It's an internet forum, barring a few lines of text, it's hard for me to tell whether you're being serious or not. Second, I find it funny you think I'm attacking you, when you got defensive first.

Finally, on to the ITC, this is old news from 2015, but relevant. A gentleman collected all the ITC rankings and sorted them by factions. Orks, while having a decent number of players at 35, only one made it in the Top 30 and none made it into the Top 10. So no, I don't think Orks can win championships, even with the most skilled of generals.

Great. I'm in the top 4% as of the most recent update. I don't play orks often, but I do play them and do enjoy them as that pic I posted implies. Just a ton of green. Lovely fields of green.

I already conceded, like four times, that orks will be harder for you to take all the way. I also don't think you can't take them all the way. I went 8 straight wins in tourney play with Orks before hitting a brick wall, and that was chronicled on my blog, so i wont go over it here. if you care, take a look. if not, that's cool.

I am mainly in this thread totalk about what we can change or alternatively what needs to change so that folks like you can be less frustrated with the codex.

It doesnt help that the codex thingee just came out. I dont anticipate a big change any time soon

well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

Franarok wrote:
well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

You mean the one where bodies fall from nowhere for no reason?

Franarok wrote:
well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

ork accuracy looks bad but its volume can be so copious that it kind of makes up for it. I kind of like shooty orks. thats how i played the first list i tried. Had a ton o Zzap guns and ammo runts, had gretchen and lots of them, shielding meganobz, war buggies and lootas... a lot of shooting. It seemed to work and with s many wounds to give meaninglessly almost in some cases, the eluge of dice was enough sometimes to make the enemy bite sized and tasty with ketchup.

 Cleatus wrote:
Orks got toned down at the start of 7th, and then other armies got buffed starting with Necrons. That's what's wrong.

I really want to know who the hell at GW thought Orks needed toning down in the first place.

 Matthew wrote:
Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Anything that rewards you with free models, like the GSF.

But you can't put runts on everything, no mention only one use. Also runts make units even more expensive when they usually are overpriced for no reason.
And vehicles are bs2. With a lot of vehicles focused on shoot a powerful weapon that sucks (battlewawon, big trakk supa canon, lifta...) . Or the new flyer with the smasha gun (against the two s9 shoots of the Marine one we have one of bs2 of random strength haha). The morkanaut with his weapons of only one shot, etc etc

And yeah, I still can't understand why gw nerfed most of the codex (to lay things to comment here). Is was particularly odd with the kans: if the walkers usually are bad because rules, how they nerfed the Kans lowering their strength, being raised 20 pts and adding the rules of being coward?
I mean, they were so much gamebreaking to such large Nerf?

And why quit the invulnerable to IC? Maybe some marine player son of some directive couldn't kill a warboss in cqc? XD

Orks in FFG's 40K line are as strong as strong but not freakishly strong human beings, if that counts for something. I don't see any indication that they are supposed to be beyond the human range of the spectrum.

Ironically the best I have done against an Eldar player recently was when I surprised him by Bringing 2 Horde Detachments loaded up with Heavy Support slots. EG lots of Lootas, 5 Mek Gunz and some Battlewagonz toting those mostly useless Killkannonz.

He was a little shocked when on turn 1 I put out 3 big Pie Plates and 5 small ones at S7Ap3 and S8AP2 and the lootas (30 of them) rolled 3 shots each so 90 S7AP4 shots went downrange.

Turn 1 I immobilized or destroyed all his vehicles and forced 2 units of SCAT bikes to take leadership checks because my pie plates scattered off and fethed them up a bit (AP2 and they can't jink because they weren't the target).

Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Alcibiades wrote:
Orks in FFG's 40K line are as strong as strong but not freakishly strong human beings, if that counts for something. I don't see any indication that they are supposed to be beyond the human range of the spectrum.

That's nice, but the 4th edition codex mentions how an ork boy could tear out a human's throat with their bare hands. It also talks about how orks are far more muscular than a human.

 Matthew wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Only when you are surprising your opponent. Otherwise no, ork shooting is terrible. 90 S7AP4 shots from 30 lootas equals 30 hits on 2 different targets. Don't get me wrong that is a lot, but look at it this way, against a Tac squad thats 12-13 wounds and 4 dead marines. And that is the BEST a Loota mob can do. the KMK Mek Gunz are good and at BS3 mind you, but they have "Gets Hot" special rule so your sinking more points into ammo grots (well not anymore). and Battlewagonz are just trash at this point. AV14/12/10 means you die to flanking fire every game.

Even against the Eldar opponent I surprised he was able to destroy all my Battlewagonz because Firedragons eat them for breakfast. I only won that game because I had 6 squads of Boyz running around as bubblewrap for those gunz and wagonz so they survived for a few turns to lay down some dakka.

I promise you, if I showed up with that list again I would get tabled. furthermore, HOLY CRAP is it boring! I don't know how Tau do it, I was so bored the entire game.

 Matthew wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Its never a bad idea.

Orks from warhammer are far different from clasic fantasy orcs. Indeed fantasy orks are stronger than humans but not freakingly.

but warhammer orks are FAR stronger than humans on lore and codex. And hell, only need see the miniature, an ork arm is more than twice the size of an guard xD

And yeah, orks are bad shooting. Lootas are our best shooting unit, but can be easily erased from the game haha

I still think what orks need is a midrange dedicated transport option, else a fast attack transport option that can be used with boyz.

If they made gunwagonz, looted wagons and the AV13 transport from IA8 available as dedicated transport options or fast attack options, I think it would actually fix a big achilles heel that has been with orks for a long time.

How about some sort of actual dedicated battle tank? Since the Battlewagon is mostly used as a transport, how about an actual tank?

Orks don't need tanks, they need a decent dedicated transport for boyz or a fast attack transport option. Read the codex.

We have a tank, its called the Looted Wagon. I think its a pretty good unit but most people overlook it since its rules came in a white dwarf and isn't in the codex.

They don't need a NEW transport, they need to fix the damn trukk. Make it less explody.

well, i cant name a F11 vehicle a "tank" xD

Think the most close to a tank are on FW: the grott mega tank and the big trakk (both with 40k seal)

If you oponent is not an donkey-cave who dont let you use FW units being you an ork player....well, look another rival xDD

 Don Savik wrote:
We have a tank, its called the Looted Wagon. I think its a pretty good unit but most people overlook it since its rules came in a white dwarf and isn't in the codex.

They don't need a NEW transport, they need to fix the damn trukk. Make it less explody.

Make trukks at least 11/11/10 so bolters can't plink them to death, make ramshackle a 5+ to glance, and bring back the looted wagon rules. That would solve a ton of issues we have right now. I really do think the main issue with trukks is that they're so vulnerable to S4 fire.

Or give trukks jink.

Non-skimmers can't jink, so maybe some other save would work. I'd rather take the 11/11/10 buff instead. That would mean marines couldn't touch it so heavier weapons would be forced to shoot at it, sparing your tougher units like MANz, wagons, bikes, etc.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Non-skimmers can't jink, so maybe some other save would work. I'd rather take the 11/11/10 buff instead. That would mean marines couldn't touch it so heavier weapons would be forced to shoot at it, sparing your tougher units like MANz, wagons, bikes, etc.

False, Bikes and Jetbikes can jink. It would make sense if all fast vehicles could jink.

I think raising the base cost of a trukk to 40pts and giving it 11/11/10 and jink would help out SIGNIFICANTLY! just so long as GW doesn't come out with some other new stupid rule that says a jinking trukk isn't allowed to unload its troops to assault the following turn.....and knowing GW that is exactly what they would do.

As well as fixing ramshackle to a 5+ and maybe bringing back a version of the older ramshackle rule for when it does explode.

 Matthew wrote:


Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system

Mark of Gork - gives you 'ere We Go and Furious Charge
Mark of Mork - gives you Furious Charge and 'ere We Go