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Talys wrote: @Frozen Ocean, Azreal13 - Yeah, I (our group) has been playing it wrong the whole time, though only specifically with grenades - not with other equipment that might confer bonuses. I don't think it'll make much of a difference either way in our games, tbh.
When I first posted about it a couple pages back, I was just mentioning that it wasn't a bad question.
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insaniak wrote: The sky isn't falling... It's just a bad ruling, as the pod with the doors included has such a massive footprint. This makes it much harder to deep strike then on tables with dense terrain (which should be all of them), and means that if and when you do manage to find room to deploy them they have a massive impact on the table through blocking off potential movement routes.
But you could just play with the doors closed, right? Or swing open the doors that you elect to swing open. Then it would be no bigger a footprint than before, and the 100% cover ruling can be pretty beneficial.
In a way, if you build your pods with doors that can be articulated, it makes it a very flexibile unit to abuse. People already block off titans with drop pods, but this makes it even easier. Who needs superfriends when you can take the Flesh Tearers formation to get 6 drop pods -- with nothing in most of them -- just to fill the board up with LoS blocking and movement impeding crap so that you can safely maneuver and close in. That's only 210 points + troop + hq -- and you can plaster the board with 6 ginormous pieces of junk that's hard to delete. Add another 90 pts for DWL's, and they can even kill some stuff -- or at least make it so that they can't be ignored.
Yes, you will soon have no friends...
Or you could simply abuse the rules with the plethora of already available cheese and lose friends just as quickly. How about thunderwolf deathstars with ravenwing buds or wulfen turn 1 assault units? How about invisible super heavies?
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people jump all over something new as being a detriment to a game that already has countless fun sucking options available. I mean heck even a fluffy single codex ravenwing army can field a couple dark shrouds and have an army wide 2+ re-rollable cover save on t5 fast troops with scout, hit and run, stubborn and improved, twin linked overwatch. Try beating that with most armies.
But it is the drop pod that will ruin lives here lol. The footprint of a drop pod isn't a problem because luckily there is a perfectly legal alternative in keeping the things shut.
Spoletta wrote: We have always made assumptions while playing, and much more influencing than the hatches issue.
So according to the rules of LOS if your model can trace a real line of sight to the arms, legs, torso or head of an infantry model then you can see it. This means that spore mines are invisible since they have nothing of that. Obviously no one plays like that, and makes the assumption that the core and tentacles of the spore mines also count for LOS, but RAW you would never be able to see a spore mine.
Spore mines have limbs as well as a head and at the very least you can't claim they don't have a torso. If you chose to be pedantic about what is a head with your opponent then that's your decision. If your claiming a hive tyrant has legs and arms despite being alien in design you would be hard pressed to claim tentacles on a spore mine wouldn't fall in the same category.
There is a difference between a game revolving around true line of sight, meaning you have to literally (old definition) see your opponents model from your model in order to shoot it and how you choose to define or name the parts of that model. Playing drop pods as invisible movement blockers has and will always be a lazy mans approach, it immediately breaks one of the most important tenants of the games rules and never had any place in the rule set. I pointed this out earlier, show me in the rules where doors are permitted to be ignored. Pointing out other areas of sloppy writing isn't an answer to that question.
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Zach wrote: Having played one game in the past 7 months, what were the shenanigans involved with Librarius conclave before?
People were widely apparently claiming they could empirically channel powers for easier casting while still manifesting their own powers. Resulting in stupid levels of efficiency in the psychic phase, a phase only regulated by it's random nature.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/12 15:59:57
Doesn't count. Doors are not attached to the base, so the doors don't do nothing. Also why would you have the 2 pods touching? Why not put them 1.999" away from each other since no mini can move within 1" of the enemy. So increase your line. Come on, if you are going to whine about cheese, do it properly lol.
Hey more power to you if you can pull that off. After all they can't scatter for that to happen. There is more things to complain about this. If someone wants to do this, plan for it I say and adapt. Don't whine and cry about it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/12 17:25:07
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Why is that an issue exactly? I wasn't aware of anything in the FAQ that somehow made Drop Pods completely invulnerable.
I've been dealing with Drop Pods keeping me away from objectives for 10 years now. You too can adapt.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Eh. Drop pods should be abstracted as Deep Strike and the model not be required anyway. Kinda silly to plonk this massive spendy bit of plastic down just to do what amounts to Deep Striking. But I know that doesn't help here.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Why is that an issue exactly? I wasn't aware of anything in the FAQ that somehow made Drop Pods completely invulnerable.
I've been dealing with Drop Pods keeping me away from objectives for 10 years now. You too can adapt.
The problem being that the enemy cannot reach that objective without either going around or first destroying a pod then difficult terrain-ing through it
How does that matter? I can do the same thing with a pair of rhinos parked sideways and 2.5 inches apart only when you try to move around I can tank shock you back each turn.
To be fair, especially as a Tyranid player and smash rules being what they are in 7ed, there is a huge difference in assaulting AV10 rear armor and AV12 all around with 3 hull points.
The rhinos have to drive across the table, and aren't all around AV12 and therefore generally immune to regular infantry attacks and all small arms fire.
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people jump all over something new as being a detriment to a game that already has countless fun sucking options available. .
People will call out bad rulings where they see them. A bad ruling is no less bad just because there are other aspects of the game that aren't perfect.
Not sure why that would be so amazing, to be honest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/12 20:23:36
Although technically, blood angels just got a boost so...good for them?
The reason you'll not find BA players cheering is much the same reason you don't find Chaos players over the moon about IA 13 making their army viable.
The problem being that the enemy cannot reach that objective without either going around or first destroying a pod then difficult terrain-ing through it
Yes, do one of those. Problem solved.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
gigasnail wrote: The rhinos have to drive across the table, and aren't all around AV12 and therefore generally immune to regular infantry attacks and all small arms fire.
And the drop pods have to start off the table and scatter into position with an amazingly hard to deploy footprint. Rhinos are also immune to 9/10 small arms fire being that they are av11 except at the rear. Also note that with the recent FAQ drop pods are more likely to die to units that assault with melta bomb or other anti tank grenade since they are open topped and can be exploded easier but more importantly since they are auto hit in combat.
with inertial guidance, it's hardly difficult to deploy pods within 2" of each other, you don't even have to touch them, and you get your pods pretty much on-order (some formations specifically on order). and AV12 all around is orders of magnitude better than AV11/10 rear.
but sure, whatever i'm sure we're all over reacting.
Talys wrote: In the scenario that you describe (put knife away, throw grenade, grab knife), I would totally agree with you. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about charging forward with a pistol and knife, never throwing a grenade, yet getting the benefits of the grenade, just because it's hanging on your belt.
Game mechanics-wise, it actually makes more sense, because every model in the squad must pay for a grenade, while only one model can actually throw a grenade each turn (which doesn't make real-life sense, anyways). So, like, the points for the grenades on the 9 models that can't throw them have some game mechanic benefit, yay. But I'm just saying... it makes as little sense to say that a model that doesn't use a grenade can get its benefits as it does that a model with a grenade can't throw it, just because his buddy threw a grenade of some type
I would much rather it be the other way around: grenades don't confer their benefits (like Assault) unless the model is using them, and any model that has the grenade can use it. But I get it. Then grenades are too good. And it's a game, where combat is an abstraction, and all that.
Or howabout this scenario:
Squad prepares to charge in. One member takes up grenade, throw it and when it goes boom forcing defenders to duck in he and his squad mates charge in. While running he also has ample time to pull up his holstered pistol in preparation of combat.
Pretty much how it goes in real life(well apart from wielding pistol and sword)
Doesn't count. Doors are not attached to the base, so the doors don't do nothing. Also why would you have the 2 pods touching? Why not put them 1.999" away from each other since no mini can move within 1" of the enemy. So increase your line. Come on, if you are going to whine about cheese, do it properly lol.
Hey more power to you if you can pull that off. After all they can't scatter for that to happen. There is more things to complain about this. If someone wants to do this, plan for it I say and adapt. Don't whine and cry about it.
Doors are part of model as per FAQ. You can't move over enemy models. Ergo you can't go over the drop pods so are stuck at the other side until you blow those pods apart.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/13 06:27:13
Red Corsair wrote: Also note that with the recent FAQ drop pods are more likely to die to units that assault with melta bomb or other anti tank grenade since they are open topped and can be exploded easier but more importantly since they are auto hit in combat.
Grenades and melta bombs got an FAQ too, saying only one model per unit can use it in combat. Some armies will simply have a very hard time getting past an area of drop pods.
Thing is drop pod blocking has been a tactic for years, now it has just been spelled out how it works and made more effective. Some armies laughed at it, others were severely hampered. A horde army will just come to a full stop, and prey there are no thunderfire cannons nearby.
i suppose it just depends on how much of a jerk your SM opponent is. For me, I think there should be a chance for any AA in range, to shoot them down before the drop pod is deployed on the field.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/13 07:37:34
Although technically, blood angels just got a boost so...good for them?
The reason you'll not find BA players cheering is much the same reason you don't find Chaos players over the moon about IA 13 making their army viable.
JohnnyHell wrote: Eh. Drop pods should be abstracted as Deep Strike and the model not be required anyway. Kinda silly to plonk this massive spendy bit of plastic down just to do what amounts to Deep Striking. But I know that doesn't help here.
They used to be, and prior to that it was a special mission from codex space marines, then people kept whining at GW to make the model, then GW made the model, now you want the model to go and have an abstract... circles within circles, the dark angels approve!
Talys wrote: In the scenario that you describe (put knife away, throw grenade, grab knife), I would totally agree with you. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about charging forward with a pistol and knife, never throwing a grenade, yet getting the benefits of the grenade, just because it's hanging on your belt.
Game mechanics-wise, it actually makes more sense, because every model in the squad must pay for a grenade, while only one model can actually throw a grenade each turn (which doesn't make real-life sense, anyways). So, like, the points for the grenades on the 9 models that can't throw them have some game mechanic benefit, yay. But I'm just saying... it makes as little sense to say that a model that doesn't use a grenade can get its benefits as it does that a model with a grenade can't throw it, just because his buddy threw a grenade of some type
I would much rather it be the other way around: grenades don't confer their benefits (like Assault) unless the model is using them, and any model that has the grenade can use it. But I get it. Then grenades are too good. And it's a game, where combat is an abstraction, and all that.
Or howabout this scenario:
Squad prepares to charge in. One member takes up grenade, throw it and when it goes boom forcing defenders to duck in he and his squad mates charge in. While running he also has ample time to pull up his holstered pistol in preparation of combat.
Pretty much how it goes in real life(well apart from wielding pistol and sword)
Doesn't count. Doors are not attached to the base, so the doors don't do nothing. Also why would you have the 2 pods touching? Why not put them 1.999" away from each other since no mini can move within 1" of the enemy. So increase your line. Come on, if you are going to whine about cheese, do it properly lol.
Hey more power to you if you can pull that off. After all they can't scatter for that to happen. There is more things to complain about this. If someone wants to do this, plan for it I say and adapt. Don't whine and cry about it.
Doors are part of model as per FAQ. You can't move over enemy models. Ergo you can't go over the drop pods so are stuck at the other side until you blow those pods apart.
Can't skimmers, jet bikes, and jump units move over enemy models?
Red Corsair wrote: Also note that with the recent FAQ drop pods are more likely to die to units that assault with melta bomb or other anti tank grenade since they are open topped and can be exploded easier but more importantly since they are auto hit in combat.
Grenades and melta bombs got an FAQ too, saying only one model per unit can use it in combat. Some armies will simply have a very hard time getting past an area of drop pods.
Thing is drop pod blocking has been a tactic for years, now it has just been spelled out how it works and made more effective. Some armies laughed at it, others were severely hampered. A horde army will just come to a full stop, and prey there are no thunderfire cannons nearby.
That was literally the FAQ answer I was talking about in my post, sorry. I was pointing out how that one attack is MUSCH more critical now, and in fact due to pods being av 12 all around but immobilized and open topped, they are much more vulnerable to melta bombs held by characters.
In regards to the horde army, this is a fair complaint about the game, but horde armies are not suddenly invalid due to the pod FAQ. Thunderfire canons and just about every other shooty thing in the game coupled with random assaults and overwatch already ruined hordes. There are already so many nails in that coffin you are out of empty space to pound in those extra nails.
Also why would you have the 2 pods touching? Why not put them 1.999" away from each other since no mini can move within 1" of the enemy. So increase your line. Come on, if you are going to whine about cheese, do it properly 
4,000 
Word Bearers 1,500 
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
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