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Hate big tobacco? Support small business? Support quitting smoking? Sign this gak. The FDA is basically making a move that will effectively decimate the vaping industry. I don't care if you thing vaping is douchey or what. This is a chance to tell the FDA and big tobacco to back off. I used a vape to quit smoking after 15 years of smoking. My girlfriend has smoked for 25 something years and quit as well. Don't let them totally bone people who want a healthier alternative to smoking or who want to quit smoking altogether. This FDA ruling has ZERO effect on big tobacco, but could effectively crush a multi billion dollar effective alternative. Big tobacco sees it as a threat to their pockets and has effectively lobbied to make it go away. DON'T let that happen. This could cost THOUSANDS of people jobs and lead to an underground and unregulated market of juices and mods being made which is way more harmful than anything now.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/overturn-fdas-ruling-ecigarette-classification-tobacco-product

I too vape after quitting. Is this a genuine health reason they are outlawing (fair enough if so) or political bollox?

So, why exactly is it that a product containing the same drug as tobacco shouldn't be regulated the same way? Why are you acting like this is a complete ban rather than new regulations that will still leave e-cigarettes available and legal to buy? The zero-information petition you're asking people to sign does not even attempt to answer these questions.

Also, IMO the only problem with this situation is that tobacco isn't banned entirely. Ban vaping, ban smoking, and the world will not miss either.

 Ratius wrote:
I too vape after quitting. Is this a genuine health reason they are outlawing (fair enough if so) or political bollox?

It's a bit of a mix of both.

The same reasons that help people quit smoking also lead to people picking up smoking, and e-cigs are as much of a gateway into cigarettes as they are out of cigarettes. Big Tobacco knows this and they are buying up e-cig companies to be part of that revenue stream. You end up with each to use and easy to access to vaping devices, in lots of easy to enjoy flavors, market to teenagers, get them used to having something in their hand and inhaling "smoke", and then it's just a small step towards regular cigarettes. People like vaping to quit smoking because "it's so much like smoking", which is why it's easy to start vaping and then progress to smoking because "it's so much like smoking". So there is a legitimate concern that they can be a "gateway" to old-fashioned smoking for kids and I really don't have a problem with banning the sale of them to anyone under 18.

Nicotine itself is already frequently regulated by the FDA, and I don't have a problem with them regulating e-cig since they are used with nicotine. Yes, they can help you stop smoking, but so can patches and gums, and those are regulated as well.

E-cig by themselves haven't really had much actual real-world testing and studies to see if there is any bad effects to vaporizing liquids that are produced with no real control and oversight and which directly enter your lungs and blood stream. So I also won't disagree that there are more studies needed on that front.

And Big Tobacco is probably paying their lobbyists to crack down on this unregulated alternative to their highly regulated business, and governments are likely looking at a decreased income due to people switching from their highly taxed cash cow.

E-cig by themselves haven't really had much actual real-world testing and studies to see if there is any bad effects to vaporizing liquids that are produced with no real control and oversight and which directly enter your lungs and blood stream. So I also won't disagree that there are more studies needed on that front.

Definitely agree there.

Read some where that a vapor exploded in a guys mouth and parts of the inhaler was driven down his throat and exploded again. Like two months back

Yeah, I think there are good and obvious reasons why the medical community is very wary of the health effects of inhaling a bunch of vaporized chemicals on a regular basis. Especially when the companies manufacturing these things are the same companies who worked to cover up the health risks of their other products AND manipulated levels of the drug in said products to keep their customers addicted.

I'm also not in favor of giving points for "quitting" when people switch from cigs to e-cigs. If you want to quit and truly improve your health, you quit nicotine altogether.

There is no proof that vaping is a healthier alternative. Without any regulation, there's no way to tell what actual effects vaping has on your body. That's what the FDA is there for, to regulate any industry that produces a product we consume.

Of course "Big Tobacco" wants them regulated. I would too if my competition had basically the same product but zero oversight or regulation.

A) Vaping has not been around long enough to effectively study the long term effects of it, but I'd be cautious in calling it healthy. The WHO seems to agree.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallysatel/2015/10/21/keep-vaping-china-dont-listen-to-the-world-health-organization-on-e-cigarettes/#c6f24f5737c1

http://www.who.int/nmh/events/2014/backgrounder-e-cigarettes/en/

B) Why shouldn't it be classified as tobacco? I think hookah and all sorts of vaporized or burned products like this should be regulated.

Again, i think vaping, as douchey as it is, is a better alternative to cigarettes, but I'd be hesitant to call them healthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
There is no proof that vaping is a healthier alternative. Without any regulation, there's no way to tell what actual effects vaping has on your body. That's what the FDA is there for, to regulate any industry that produces a product we consume.

Of course "Big Tobacco" wants them regulated. I would too if my competition had basically the same product but zero oversight or regulation.

But but, Big Tobacco and the scary government and the man!!

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, I think there are good and obvious reasons why the medical community is very wary of the health effects of inhaling a bunch of vaporized chemicals on a regular basis. Especially when the companies manufacturing these things are the same companies who worked to cover up the health risks of their other products AND manipulated levels of the drug in said products to keep their customers addicted.

I'm also not in favor of giving points for "quitting" when people switch from cigs to e-cigs. If you want to quit and truly improve your health, you quit nicotine altogether.

Nicotine is not the main driver for lung cancer. Its tobacco and the processing of tobacco that goes with cigarettes.


Interesting that the UK is supporting it as a method to get of smoking. Considering the success rate of quitting smoking is LOWER than quitting heroin, I'd support anything that helps that.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, why exactly is it that a product containing the same drug as tobacco shouldn't be regulated the same way?

Because the reason tobacco is regulated the way it is has nothing to do with the drug that both things share and everything to do with the many substances cigarettes contain that vape liquid doesn't - there's no credible evidence that nicotine is carcinogenic in and of itself and the vapour exhaled by people using the devices doesn't even come close to containing enough remaining nicotine to affect anyone else.

Also, IMO the only problem with this situation is that tobacco isn't banned entirely. Ban vaping, ban smoking, and the world will not miss either.

Vaping doesn't have anything to do with tobacco beyond it's demonstrable efficacy in helping people to stop using the stuff. I take it then that you're also in favour of banning alcohol? And caffeine?

Do anti-smokers realize most of the bigger E-cig companies are owned by tobacco companies, yes?

Blu was owned by Lorrilard (Newport), Vuse is owned by RJ Reynolds (Camel), and MarkTen is owned by Altria (Marlboro, Black & Mild)

Oh wow thats a bummer though not surprising.

seems like an easy way for big tobo to come in and fill the void left behind with their inferior products.

"Big Tobacco" has invested a lot of money in vaping over the last few years, both in terms of buying up companies and developing products. If I was working for Philip Morris or another tobacco company, I would want some regulation for vape products but certainly not for the sake of stymieing the market for them. That would be idiotic, given the existing investments. Rather, I'd want regulation so that (1) the health risks around vaping at least looked more clear than they currently do (cancer warnings on cig packs didn't sink the business) and (2) there would be less risk in trying to bring these products to market without knowing what kind of regulatory schema will be in place - because there will certainly be regulations at one point.

I'm very happy to see some more regulation coming to the industry

I was dismayed to see tv adverts (featuring glamour, sex etc) start popping up on UK tv for vaping products

sure they are excellent to replace traditional smoking (and a lot healthier), and can help people to quit if they want to

but they should be regulated (and i'm glad the EU ban on advertising should be in soon for us in the UK)

 Manchu wrote:
"Big Tobacco" has invested a lot of money in vaping over the last few years, both in terms of buying up companies and developing products. If I was working for Philip Morris or another tobacco company, I would want some regulation for vape products but certainly not for the sake of stymieing the market for them. That would be idiotic, given the existing investments. Rather, I'd want regulation so that (1) the health risks around vaping at least looked more clear than they currently do (cancer warnings on cig packs didn't sink the business) and (2) there would be less risk in trying to bring these products to market without knowing what kind of regulatory schema will be in place - because there will certainly be regulations at one point.

Altria has pretty much used the FDA as a weapon against their smaller competition (pretty much everyone else). They invited the FDA to their labs to suggest how to go about regulating, including added expenses some of the other smaller companies can't afford. With the FDA wanting to milk money out of tobacco companies, and Altria's open door policy towards them (not something anyone else thought to do), they are the perfect way to stymie the compitition, and look good to the G-men while doing it

 Manchu wrote:
"Big Tobacco" has invested a lot of money in vaping over the last few years, both in terms of buying up companies and developing products. If I was working for Philip Morris or another tobacco company, I would want some regulation for vape products but certainly not for the sake of stymieing the market for them. That would be idiotic, given the existing investments. Rather, I'd want regulation so that (1) the health risks around vaping at least looked more clear than they currently do (cancer warnings on cig packs didn't sink the business) and (2) there would be less risk in trying to bring these products to market without knowing what kind of regulatory schema will be in place - because there will certainly be regulations at one point.

The thing is they have the money to deal with the regulations. it will kill quite a lot of producers. they will now have a completely open market that they can sell their products for basically any amount.
they dont give a rats backside about the health risks. its about making money

not that i at all trust small producers ether. and i do agree it needs to be regulated in some way.

Vaping definitely is a form of a drug and falls under FDA jurisdiction. Why is it even a question if they should be regulating it?

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Vaping definitely is a form of a drug and falls under FDA jurisdiction. Why is it even a question if they should be regulating it?

The FDA classified cigarettes as a "Nicotine injection device". It's how they got to regulate them, by making cigs out to be a medical device. Isn't that literally what an E-cig is?

EDIT: Spelling

man look at all the democrats in here for bigger governments and more regulations.

I agree, they need more research especially before selling them to minors.

sirlynchmob wrote:
man look at all the democrats in here for bigger governments and more regulations.

I agree, they need more research especially before selling them to minors.

im 90% sure they dont sell them to minors. as much as the big teens buy them and distribute them. same with alcohol.

now online sales is an issue. there is basically no control over who can buy what online.

sirlynchmob wrote:
man look at all the democrats in here for bigger governments and more regulations.

I agree, they need more research especially before selling them to minors.

Labels are cool! Look at the Republican who wants an unregulated market and rampant monopolies!

I'd venture to say that most legit E-liquid manufacturing companies WANT some sort of regulation. The "wild west" aspect of any new industry is usually a very turbulent and unpredictable time making it hard to get real testing and regulations passed.

But the way the FDA goes about these new regulations is to put out this 500 pg document of legal jargon (standard) that the average consumer will struggle to get through. They make reference to several "studies" (which they provide no sources or further information for) that link vaping to higher teen smoking etc. etc. AKA THINK OF THE CHILDREN emotional rhetoric BS. This subject hits home for me personally as my family had a B&M vape shop, and my Girlfriend works for Molecule Labs, which is one of the biggest legitimate E-liquid producers in CA and the country for that matter.

They are all for regulations that make sense. But of course nothing is that simple with the FDA. Its definitely weird times and it will be interesting to see how things end up..


Here is a cool inside look at Molecule Labs if anyone is interested in how proper manufacturing should be done ( my GF Christina is at the 27 min haha ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3SoujCcJa0

 Ratius wrote:
I too vape after quitting. Is this a genuine health reason they are outlawing (fair enough if so) or political bollox?

It's not taxed like tobacco.

I really want to see their justification... but the cynic in me is that it's a ploy to categorized this 'as if it's a tobacco product' and thusly be able to slap a sin tax on it like real-world tobacco/alcohol.

 Chief Tugboat wrote:
I'd venture to say that most legit E-liquid manufacturing companies WANT some sort of regulation. The "wild west" aspect of any new industry is usually a very turbulent and unpredictable time making it hard to get real testing and regulations passed.

But the way the FDA goes about these new regulations is to put out this 500 pg document of legal jargon (standard) that the average consumer will struggle to get through. They make reference to several "studies" (which they provide no sources or further information for) that link vaping to higher teen smoking etc. etc. AKA THINK OF THE CHILDREN emotional rhetoric BS. This subject hits home for me personally as my family had a B&M vape shop, and my Girlfriend works for Molecule Labs, which is one of the biggest legitimate E-liquid producers in CA and the country for that matter.

They are all for regulations that make sense. But of course nothing is that simple with the FDA. Its definitely weird times and it will be interesting to see how things end up..


Here is a cool inside look at Molecule Labs if anyone is interested in how proper manufacturing should be done ( my GF Christina is at the 27 min haha ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3SoujCcJa0

Neet.
you guys make cuttwood eh?

thast honestly the only brand i recognize :/

Anecdotal of course, but the people I have heard say they were going to use vaping to quit smoking did not. At this point it just feels disingenuous.

I think there's too much regulation against cigarettes as it is. Inform people, and let them make informed choices.

 Desubot wrote:

 Chief Tugboat wrote:
I'd venture to say that most legit E-liquid manufacturing companies WANT some sort of regulation. The "wild west" aspect of any new industry is usually a very turbulent and unpredictable time making it hard to get real testing and regulations passed.

But the way the FDA goes about these new regulations is to put out this 500 pg document of legal jargon (standard) that the average consumer will struggle to get through. They make reference to several "studies" (which they provide no sources or further information for) that link vaping to higher teen smoking etc. etc. AKA THINK OF THE CHILDREN emotional rhetoric BS. This subject hits home for me personally as my family had a B&M vape shop, and my Girlfriend works for Molecule Labs, which is one of the biggest legitimate E-liquid producers in CA and the country for that matter.

They are all for regulations that make sense. But of course nothing is that simple with the FDA. Its definitely weird times and it will be interesting to see how things end up..


Here is a cool inside look at Molecule Labs if anyone is interested in how proper manufacturing should be done ( my GF Christina is at the 27 min haha ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3SoujCcJa0

Neet.
you guys make cuttwood eh?

thast honestly the only brand i recognize :/

Yup, one of the bigger clients at Molecule labs. More and more are joining everyday.

 Ahtman wrote:
Anecdotal of course, but the people I have heard say they were going to use vaping to quit smoking did not. At this point it just feels disingenuous.

It certainly can be the case.

i have friends that have quit smoking through vaping. as well as some that have not.

My brother chewed...

He switched to vaping in January and hasn't chewed since.

I'm pretty sure that's a win health-wise for him... but, I do agree that good research is needed for the affects of long-term vaping.