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Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




San Francisco

 Desubot wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Anecdotal of course, but the people I have heard say they were going to use vaping to quit smoking did not. At this point it just feels disingenuous.


It certainly can be the case.

i have friends that have quit smoking through vaping. as well as some that have not.



Agree, like with most things, it comes down to the individual. I firsthand (through the B&M and friends) have seen literally hundreds of people put down smoking completely. Could they be blowing smoke up my shirt? Maybe, but it definitely can be effective and usually after vaping for a while, people tend to lower the nicotine levels aswell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 16:35:14


“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
― Plato  
   
Made in us
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Eating dirt is a win health-wise compared to smoking cigarettes; being healthier than cigarettes isn't a high bar to leap.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Depends on the dirt

its honestly helped me quit drinking sodas which has greatly improved my health.

not the dirt


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I feel like those who responded missed my point - given that regulation is a certainty at some point, it is better for the market that it comes sooner rather than later. Yes, this could be disastrous for smaller companies in the short term because they are positioned to take advantage of a regulation-free market. But that's a bad business plan, unless part of it involves a profitable exit strategy (like selling operations to "Big Tobacco," which is what the smart business people out there planned for). As for larger companies "weaponizing" regulation: This is really just the other side of the coin. It is really difficult to imagine anyone getting into this business sincerely counted on an indefinitely regulation-free market; quite the reverse, it was a case of making money while there was money to be made.

   
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 Manchu wrote:
I feel like those who responded missed my point - given that regulation is a certainty at some point, it is better for the market that it comes sooner rather than later. Yes, this could be disastrous for smaller companies in the short term because they are positioned to take advantage of a regulation-free market. But that's a bad business plan, unless part of it involves a profitable exit strategy (like selling operations to "Big Tobacco," which is what the smart business people out there planned for). As for larger companies "weaponizing" regulation: This is really just the other side of the coin. It is really difficult to imagine anyone getting into this business sincerely counted on an indefinitely regulation-free market; quite the reverse, it was a case of making money while there was money to be made.


This. It's the same thing that happened in Colorado and Washington with marijuana. People made as much as they could before the regulations came in, then bailed and shut down their businesses.

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I'm really tempted to try Native American brand of cig's. Straight dried tobacco.

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 jreilly89 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I feel like those who responded missed my point - given that regulation is a certainty at some point, it is better for the market that it comes sooner rather than later. Yes, this could be disastrous for smaller companies in the short term because they are positioned to take advantage of a regulation-free market. But that's a bad business plan, unless part of it involves a profitable exit strategy (like selling operations to "Big Tobacco," which is what the smart business people out there planned for). As for larger companies "weaponizing" regulation: This is really just the other side of the coin. It is really difficult to imagine anyone getting into this business sincerely counted on an indefinitely regulation-free market; quite the reverse, it was a case of making money while there was money to be made.


This. It's the same thing that happened in Colorado and Washington with marijuana. People made as much as they could before the regulations came in, then bailed and shut down their businesses.



Happened in CA too. Which is why LEGIT companies WANT regulations. They just want it to make sense, and not be more pulling at heartstrings, think of the children, for the greater good crap. Real research needs to be done, no doubt about that.

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
― Plato  
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

There is also huge reputation risk associated with unregulated products. There is a lot of (mis)information out there about the benefits and risks of vaping. I'm not saying that regulation will suddenly make these issues actually clear; but there will be less volatility in what can be credibly declared, either for or against.

   
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The Great State of Texas

Yet "bath crystals" and "synthetic weed" are sold in many of your finer convenience stores. You now the stuff where people take it and end up trying to eat somebody's face...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
Yet "bath crystals" and "synthetic weed" are sold in many of your finer convenience stores. You now the stuff where people take it and end up trying to eat somebody's face...


Yep and everything they try and regulate it, they change to formula slightly so they can keep selling em.

that stuff is honestly some insane gak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






You can have my bath salts when you pry them from my cold, (un)dead, hands. Ah, the effervescence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 20:06:19


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I am all for regulations but not at the cost of making Big tobacco the only people who can afford to be in the industry. High end mods and juices are shown to have way more control and success for smoking cessation than any BT made thing like juul.

I work for a store that sells ecigs and juice. The junky Juul ones don't sell repeat because they do NOT work. When I am able to convince them to get a nicer setup, they come in constantly for juice and to thank me for getting them to drop cigs.

I smoked for 16 years and quit within a month easy. Regulating it and taxing it. Is one thing. But to have to pay 1M per sku for FDA approval will lead to an underground shoddy movement. I make my own juice and know what I am doing. There are people who don't who Vape who will somehow start trying and do it wrong and make themselves sick, or worse it'll lead to totally unrecorded sales by kitchen brewers.

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I was under the impression that it was way less than 1mill per sku.
but still out of reach for many small businesses.

and regulation tends to kill small business anyway.

it seems that really the only way to deal with it is to group together like what tugboat is doing and try and be a conglomerate.

or otherwise start getting kickstarted to pay for it and other fees.

still im fine and all for regulations. just dont want big tobacco to benefit so hard.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

I don't know much about e-cigs and vaping (is there a difference between them?), but I've had FDA regulation pounded into my head for the last 5 years at work. The FDA started moving to regulate "pipe tobacco and little cigars" 4 years ago, they officially started regulating them in the beginning of the year, and they still have not printed their guidelines for manufacturing, and it will most likely be years before they start putting people in manufacturing plants. It's not going to affect the business for a long time, so the little guys have time to lobby and adjust before anything could happen to them.

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Regulations are fine with me. I'm sick of people walking around in stores and in public vaping and then puffing it in my Fracking face. Should be looked at like cigarettes IMO
   
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Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:I don't know much about e-cigs and vaping (is there a difference between them?), but I've had FDA regulation pounded into my head for the last 5 years at work. The FDA started moving to regulate "pipe tobacco and little cigars" 4 years ago, they officially started regulating them in the beginning of the year, and they still have not printed their guidelines for manufacturing, and it will most likely be years before they start putting people in manufacturing plants. It's not going to affect the business for a long time, so the little guys have time to lobby and adjust before anything could happen to them.


Except the FDA basically said they have 90 days to get things off the shelf already. Eh it's a matter of opinion. Such as I vape at SubOhm and have a mod, not an e-cig. Vaping is more just a verb and sort of an enthusiast term.

KingCracker wrote:Regulations are fine with me. I'm sick of people walking around in stores and in public vaping and then puffing it in my Fracking face. Should be looked at like cigarettes IMO


As someone who blows off massive clouds, I'm still right there with you with not vaping in places and blowing massive clouds all over people.

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 Nydhog wrote:

Except the FDA basically said they have 90 days to get things off the shelf already. Eh it's a matter of opinion. Such as I vape at SubOhm and have a mod, not an e-cig. Vaping is more just a verb and sort of an enthusiast term.


Can you please at least make some cursory attempt at verifying facts before going on the rage train to salty town? A simple google search for "FDA Regulation Annoucement" brings us to this:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm499234.htm

Spoiler:
Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration finalized a rule extending its authority to all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, cigars, hookah tobacco and pipe tobacco, among others. This historic rule helps implement the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009 and allows the FDA to improve public health and protect future generations from the dangers of tobacco use through a variety of steps, including restricting the sale of these tobacco products to minors nationwide.

“We have more to do to help protect Americans from the dangers of tobacco and nicotine, especially our youth. As cigarette smoking among those under 18 has fallen, the use of other nicotine products, including e-cigarettes, has taken a drastic leap. All of this is creating a new generation of Americans who are at risk of addiction,” said HHS Secretary Sylvia Burwell. “Today’s announcement is an important step in the fight for a tobacco-free generation – it will help us catch up with changes in the marketplace, put into place rules that protect our kids and give adults information they need to make informed decisions.”

Tobacco use is a significant public health threat. In fact, smoking is the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States and responsible for 480,000 deaths per year. While there has been a significant decline in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, their use of other tobacco products continues to climb. A recent survey supported by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows current e-cigarette use among high school students has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (an over 900 percent increase) and hookah use has risen significantly. In 2015, 3 million middle and high school students were current e-cigarette users, and data showed high school boys smoked cigars at about the same rate as cigarettes. Additionally, a joint study by the FDA and the National Institutes of Health shows that in 2013-2014, nearly 80 percent of current youth tobacco users reported using a flavored tobacco product in the past 30 days – with the availability of appealing flavors consistently cited as a reason for use.

Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA prevent misleading claims by tobacco product manufacturers, evaluate the ingredients of tobacco products and how they are made, as well as communicate their potential risks.
Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.

For decades, the federal government and the public health community have fought to protect people from the dangers of tobacco use. Since the first Surgeon General’s report on Smoking and Health in 1964, which warned Americans about the risks associated with smoking, significant progress has been made to reduce smoking rates among Americans. In fact, tobacco prevention and control efforts have saved at least 8 million lives in the last 50 years, according to the 2014 Surgeon General’s Report on the Health Consequences of Smoking. In 2009, Congress took a historic step in the fight for public health by passing the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA) giving the FDA authority to regulate the manufacturing, distribution and marketing of tobacco products to protect the public health.

Today’s action marks a new chapter in the FDA’s efforts to end preventable tobacco-related disease and death and is a milestone in consumer protection.

“As a physician, I’ve seen first-hand the devastating health effects of tobacco use,” said FDA Commissioner Robert M. Califf, M.D. “At the FDA, we must do our job under the Tobacco Control Act to reduce the harms caused by tobacco. That includes ensuring consumers have the information they need to make informed decisions about tobacco use and making sure that new tobacco products for purchase come under comprehensive FDA review.”

Today’s actions will subject all manufacturers, importers and/or retailers of newly- regulated tobacco products to any applicable provisions, bringing them in line with other tobacco products the FDA has regulated under the TCA since 2009.

These requirements include:

Registering manufacturing establishments and providing product listings to the FDA;
Reporting ingredients, and harmful and potentially harmful constituents;
Requiring premarket review and authorization of new tobacco products by the FDA;
Placing health warnings on product packages and advertisements; and
Not selling modified risk tobacco products (including those described as “light,” “low,” or “mild”) unless authorized by the FDA.
“This final rule is a foundational step that enables the FDA to regulate products young people were using at alarming rates, like e-cigarettes, cigars and hookah tobacco, that had gone largely unregulated,” said Mitch Zeller, J.D., director of the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products. “The agency considered a number of factors in developing the rule and believes our approach is reasonable and balanced. Ultimately our job is to assess what’s happening at the population level before figuring out how to use all of the regulatory tools Congress gave the FDA.”
To assist the newly-regulated tobacco industry in complying with the requirements being announced today, the FDA is also publishing several other regulatory documents that provide additional clarity, instructions and/or the FDA’s current thinking on issues specific to the newly-regulated products.

The FDA, an agency within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, protects the public health by assuring the safety, effectiveness, and security of human and veterinary drugs, vaccines and other biological products for human use, and medical devices. The agency also is responsible for the safety and security of our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, dietary supplements, products that give off electronic radiation, and for regulating tobacco products.


The 90 Day limit is on sales to minors, not on pulling uncertified products:
Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA pre



The certification process has a 2-Year grace period for submission, and 3-Year grace period for approval. Existing products can continue to be sold, simply not to minors.

Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.


Vapes, E-Cigs whatever you want to tell them are a drug delivery system. It's not only well within the powers of the FDA to regulate such things, but they have a responsibility to the public to do so. If anything these regulations are far too late coming.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/05/07 02:41:34


 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

 Nydhog wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:I don't know much about e-cigs and vaping (is there a difference between them?), but I've had FDA regulation pounded into my head for the last 5 years at work. The FDA started moving to regulate "pipe tobacco and little cigars" 4 years ago, they officially started regulating them in the beginning of the year, and they still have not printed their guidelines for manufacturing, and it will most likely be years before they start putting people in manufacturing plants. It's not going to affect the business for a long time, so the little guys have time to lobby and adjust before anything could happen to them.


Except the FDA basically said they have 90 days to get things off the shelf already. Eh it's a matter of opinion. Such as I vape at SubOhm and have a mod, not an e-cig. Vaping is more just a verb and sort of an enthusiast term.


Where does it say that? The FDA website says the companies have 2 years to submit PMTAs for juices, and have 90 days to unlock their doors and give an ingredient list for their products. The only noticeable thing in the 90 day limit will be stores carding for minors. The companies have known this was coming, and have most likely been pre-gaming for it. Not to mention they can file lawsuits against the FDA and it will stall the process, or at least parts of it. Yeah, Vaping is a new thing, and will be hit hard, but it will be a long time before the customer sees anything beyond a price hike.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd by Chongara

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/07 02:40:11


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 feeder wrote:
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Northern IA

 Chongara wrote:
 Nydhog wrote:

Except the FDA basically said they have 90 days to get things off the shelf already. Eh it's a matter of opinion. Such as I vape at SubOhm and have a mod, not an e-cig. Vaping is more just a verb and sort of an enthusiast term.


Can you please at least make some cursory attempt at verifying facts before going on the rage train to salty town? A simple google search for "FDA Regulation Annoucement" brings us to this:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm499234.htm

Spoiler:
Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration finalized a rule extending its authority to all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, cigars, hookah tobacco and pipe tobacco, among others. This historic rule helps implement the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009 and allows the FDA to improve public health and protect future generations from the dangers of tobacco use through a variety of steps, including restricting the sale of these tobacco products to minors nationwide.

“We have more to do to help protect Americans from the dangers of tobacco and nicotine, especially our youth. As cigarette smoking among those under 18 has fallen, the use of other nicotine products, including e-cigarettes, has taken a drastic leap. All of this is creating a new generation of Americans who are at risk of addiction,” said HHS Secretary Sylvia Burwell. “Today’s announcement is an important step in the fight for a tobacco-free generation – it will help us catch up with changes in the marketplace, put into place rules that protect our kids and give adults information they need to make informed decisions.”

Tobacco use is a significant public health threat. In fact, smoking is the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States and responsible for 480,000 deaths per year. While there has been a significant decline in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, their use of other tobacco products continues to climb. A recent survey supported by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows current e-cigarette use among high school students has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (an over 900 percent increase) and hookah use has risen significantly. In 2015, 3 million middle and high school students were current e-cigarette users, and data showed high school boys smoked cigars at about the same rate as cigarettes. Additionally, a joint study by the FDA and the National Institutes of Health shows that in 2013-2014, nearly 80 percent of current youth tobacco users reported using a flavored tobacco product in the past 30 days – with the availability of appealing flavors consistently cited as a reason for use.

Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA prevent misleading claims by tobacco product manufacturers, evaluate the ingredients of tobacco products and how they are made, as well as communicate their potential risks.
Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.

For decades, the federal government and the public health community have fought to protect people from the dangers of tobacco use. Since the first Surgeon General’s report on Smoking and Health in 1964, which warned Americans about the risks associated with smoking, significant progress has been made to reduce smoking rates among Americans. In fact, tobacco prevention and control efforts have saved at least 8 million lives in the last 50 years, according to the 2014 Surgeon General’s Report on the Health Consequences of Smoking. In 2009, Congress took a historic step in the fight for public health by passing the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA) giving the FDA authority to regulate the manufacturing, distribution and marketing of tobacco products to protect the public health.

Today’s action marks a new chapter in the FDA’s efforts to end preventable tobacco-related disease and death and is a milestone in consumer protection.

“As a physician, I’ve seen first-hand the devastating health effects of tobacco use,” said FDA Commissioner Robert M. Califf, M.D. “At the FDA, we must do our job under the Tobacco Control Act to reduce the harms caused by tobacco. That includes ensuring consumers have the information they need to make informed decisions about tobacco use and making sure that new tobacco products for purchase come under comprehensive FDA review.”

Today’s actions will subject all manufacturers, importers and/or retailers of newly- regulated tobacco products to any applicable provisions, bringing them in line with other tobacco products the FDA has regulated under the TCA since 2009.

These requirements include:

Registering manufacturing establishments and providing product listings to the FDA;
Reporting ingredients, and harmful and potentially harmful constituents;
Requiring premarket review and authorization of new tobacco products by the FDA;
Placing health warnings on product packages and advertisements; and
Not selling modified risk tobacco products (including those described as “light,” “low,” or “mild”) unless authorized by the FDA.
“This final rule is a foundational step that enables the FDA to regulate products young people were using at alarming rates, like e-cigarettes, cigars and hookah tobacco, that had gone largely unregulated,” said Mitch Zeller, J.D., director of the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products. “The agency considered a number of factors in developing the rule and believes our approach is reasonable and balanced. Ultimately our job is to assess what’s happening at the population level before figuring out how to use all of the regulatory tools Congress gave the FDA.”
To assist the newly-regulated tobacco industry in complying with the requirements being announced today, the FDA is also publishing several other regulatory documents that provide additional clarity, instructions and/or the FDA’s current thinking on issues specific to the newly-regulated products.

The FDA, an agency within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, protects the public health by assuring the safety, effectiveness, and security of human and veterinary drugs, vaccines and other biological products for human use, and medical devices. The agency also is responsible for the safety and security of our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, dietary supplements, products that give off electronic radiation, and for regulating tobacco products.


The 90 Day limit is on sales to minors, not on pulling uncertified products:
Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA pre



The certification process has a 2-Year grace period for submission, and 3-Year grace period for approval. Existing products can continue to be sold, simply not to minors.

Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.


Vapes, E-Cigs whatever you want to tell them are a drug delivery system. It's not only well within the powers of the FDA to regulate such things, but they have a responsibility to the public to do so. If anything these regulations are far too late coming.


This x1000

The OP also throws out the emotional plea to support their cause "Big government is opressing us! Help help we're being repressed!!

But casually (and purposefully) leaves out the rest of the story....actually...they twisted the entire story into something it wasn't.

And they thought the Dakka peeps wouldn't find out and call them on their deception?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I get that you are on the vape train...I get that it means something *to you*...but please don't try and start your conversation in such a shady manner.

Give both sides and let people make their own decisions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/07 03:32:36


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 TheMeanDM wrote:
 Chongara wrote:
 Nydhog wrote:

Except the FDA basically said they have 90 days to get things off the shelf already. Eh it's a matter of opinion. Such as I vape at SubOhm and have a mod, not an e-cig. Vaping is more just a verb and sort of an enthusiast term.


Can you please at least make some cursory attempt at verifying facts before going on the rage train to salty town? A simple google search for "FDA Regulation Annoucement" brings us to this:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm499234.htm

Spoiler:
Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration finalized a rule extending its authority to all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, cigars, hookah tobacco and pipe tobacco, among others. This historic rule helps implement the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009 and allows the FDA to improve public health and protect future generations from the dangers of tobacco use through a variety of steps, including restricting the sale of these tobacco products to minors nationwide.

“We have more to do to help protect Americans from the dangers of tobacco and nicotine, especially our youth. As cigarette smoking among those under 18 has fallen, the use of other nicotine products, including e-cigarettes, has taken a drastic leap. All of this is creating a new generation of Americans who are at risk of addiction,” said HHS Secretary Sylvia Burwell. “Today’s announcement is an important step in the fight for a tobacco-free generation – it will help us catch up with changes in the marketplace, put into place rules that protect our kids and give adults information they need to make informed decisions.”

Tobacco use is a significant public health threat. In fact, smoking is the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States and responsible for 480,000 deaths per year. While there has been a significant decline in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, their use of other tobacco products continues to climb. A recent survey supported by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows current e-cigarette use among high school students has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (an over 900 percent increase) and hookah use has risen significantly. In 2015, 3 million middle and high school students were current e-cigarette users, and data showed high school boys smoked cigars at about the same rate as cigarettes. Additionally, a joint study by the FDA and the National Institutes of Health shows that in 2013-2014, nearly 80 percent of current youth tobacco users reported using a flavored tobacco product in the past 30 days – with the availability of appealing flavors consistently cited as a reason for use.

Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA prevent misleading claims by tobacco product manufacturers, evaluate the ingredients of tobacco products and how they are made, as well as communicate their potential risks.
Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.

For decades, the federal government and the public health community have fought to protect people from the dangers of tobacco use. Since the first Surgeon General’s report on Smoking and Health in 1964, which warned Americans about the risks associated with smoking, significant progress has been made to reduce smoking rates among Americans. In fact, tobacco prevention and control efforts have saved at least 8 million lives in the last 50 years, according to the 2014 Surgeon General’s Report on the Health Consequences of Smoking. In 2009, Congress took a historic step in the fight for public health by passing the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA) giving the FDA authority to regulate the manufacturing, distribution and marketing of tobacco products to protect the public health.

Today’s action marks a new chapter in the FDA’s efforts to end preventable tobacco-related disease and death and is a milestone in consumer protection.

“As a physician, I’ve seen first-hand the devastating health effects of tobacco use,” said FDA Commissioner Robert M. Califf, M.D. “At the FDA, we must do our job under the Tobacco Control Act to reduce the harms caused by tobacco. That includes ensuring consumers have the information they need to make informed decisions about tobacco use and making sure that new tobacco products for purchase come under comprehensive FDA review.”

Today’s actions will subject all manufacturers, importers and/or retailers of newly- regulated tobacco products to any applicable provisions, bringing them in line with other tobacco products the FDA has regulated under the TCA since 2009.

These requirements include:

Registering manufacturing establishments and providing product listings to the FDA;
Reporting ingredients, and harmful and potentially harmful constituents;
Requiring premarket review and authorization of new tobacco products by the FDA;
Placing health warnings on product packages and advertisements; and
Not selling modified risk tobacco products (including those described as “light,” “low,” or “mild”) unless authorized by the FDA.
“This final rule is a foundational step that enables the FDA to regulate products young people were using at alarming rates, like e-cigarettes, cigars and hookah tobacco, that had gone largely unregulated,” said Mitch Zeller, J.D., director of the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products. “The agency considered a number of factors in developing the rule and believes our approach is reasonable and balanced. Ultimately our job is to assess what’s happening at the population level before figuring out how to use all of the regulatory tools Congress gave the FDA.”
To assist the newly-regulated tobacco industry in complying with the requirements being announced today, the FDA is also publishing several other regulatory documents that provide additional clarity, instructions and/or the FDA’s current thinking on issues specific to the newly-regulated products.

The FDA, an agency within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, protects the public health by assuring the safety, effectiveness, and security of human and veterinary drugs, vaccines and other biological products for human use, and medical devices. The agency also is responsible for the safety and security of our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, dietary supplements, products that give off electronic radiation, and for regulating tobacco products.


The 90 Day limit is on sales to minors, not on pulling uncertified products:
Before today, there was no federal law prohibiting retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco or cigars to people under age 18. Today’s rule changes that with provisions aimed at restricting youth access, which go into effect in 90 days, including:

Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years (both in person and online);
Requiring age verification by photo ID;
Not allowing the selling of covered tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
Not allowing the distribution of free samples.
The actions being taken today will help the FDA pre



The certification process has a 2-Year grace period for submission, and 3-Year grace period for approval. Existing products can continue to be sold, simply not to minors.

Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.


Vapes, E-Cigs whatever you want to tell them are a drug delivery system. It's not only well within the powers of the FDA to regulate such things, but they have a responsibility to the public to do so. If anything these regulations are far too late coming.


This x1000

The OP also throws out the emotional plea to support their cause "Big government is opressing us! Help help we're being repressed!!

But casually (and purposefully) leaves out the rest of the story....actually...they twisted the entire story into something it wasn't.

And they thought the Dakka peeps wouldn't find out and call them on their deception?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I get that you are on the vape train...I get that it means something *to you*...but please don't try and start your conversation in such a shady manner.

Give both sides and let people make their own decisions.


To salty town?

Okay want to research for yourself? https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2016-10685.pdf There you go. All 500 pages. Have fun.

There's no deception here. I misunderstood the 90 days part. Oh no! I'll admit when I am wrong.

However; the rest of this (once again) makes it almost entirely impossible for anyone who currently manufactures juices to stay in the business unless they are already multi millionaires. That's not an exaggeration. 1 flavor with 4 strengths = 4 million in fees to submit to the FDA with no guarantee of approval. If you don't see why that is a problem effectively killing all existing businesses and making it so the market is controlled by a very select few then that's on you.

Once again as well: I am ALL for regulations but not fees that make it nearly impossible for anyone but massive corporations to stay in it. It is easier to start a brewery or a distillery (and cheaper in most states) than it will be to manufacture juice or vaporizers if this stays.





WAR IS ALL WE KNOW
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Brussels Sprouts.

 
   
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This Is Where the Fish Lives

 Nydhog wrote:
It is easier to start a brewery or a distillery (and cheaper in most states) than it will be to manufacture juice or vaporizers if this stays.

Are you speaking from experience? Because I don't think it's as easy to start a brewery as you seem to think it is.

And by the way, it should be hard to manufacture untested chemicals that people inhale.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
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Ephrata, PA

 Nydhog wrote:


To salty town?

Okay want to research for yourself? https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2016-10685.pdf There you go. All 500 pages. Have fun.

There's no deception here. I misunderstood the 90 days part. Oh no! I'll admit when I am wrong.

However; the rest of this (once again) makes it almost entirely impossible for anyone who currently manufactures juices to stay in the business unless they are already multi millionaires. That's not an exaggeration. 1 flavor with 4 strengths = 4 million in fees to submit to the FDA with no guarantee of approval. If you don't see why that is a problem effectively killing all existing businesses and making it so the market is controlled by a very select few then that's on you.


It's been estimated to be around 300k per PTMA. While still crippling for smaller companies, its not nearly the 1 million you came up with.

Michael Siegel, in his analysis, roughly estimates to $300,000 the cost for the manufacturer to file a single PTMA, a procedure that the FDA recognizes as a 1,500-hour labour. A back-of-the-envelop calculation gives a $20-million capital cost for a manufacturer aiming at authorizing 20 flavors in 3 nicotine strengths.

Linky

Combined with the inevitable price hike, and the 2 year window to file them, AND congress trying to amend the FDA's rulings to lower the price tag of regulation, they will be fine.


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 feeder wrote:
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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And by the way, it should be hard to manufacture untested chemicals that people inhale.


But freedom.

Spoiler:

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Seattle

sirlynchmob wrote:
man look at all the democrats in here for bigger governments and more regulations.

I agree, they need more research especially before selling them to minors.



Man, look at the Republican in here for going with fact-based evidence. Are you sure your party permits that sort of thing?

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
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 Nydhog wrote:


To salty town?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=salty



There's no deception here. I misunderstood the 90 days part. Oh no! I'll admit when I am wrong.

However; the rest of this (once again) makes it almost entirely impossible for anyone who currently manufactures juices to stay in the business unless they are already multi millionaires. That's not an exaggeration. 1 flavor with 4 strengths = 4 million in fees to submit to the FDA with no guarantee of approval. If you don't see why that is a problem effectively killing all existing businesses and making it so the market is controlled by a very select few then that's on you.

Once again as well: I am ALL for regulations but not fees that make it nearly impossible for anyone but massive corporations to stay in it. It is easier to start a brewery or a distillery (and cheaper in most states) than it will be to manufacture juice or vaporizers if this stays.


Regulatory hurdles are not the same thing as moving to "outlaw vaping" as your title so fantastically declares. That said despite your figures being wrong as has already been pointed out, so what? You don't see any small time mom-and-pop operations developing perspective drugs, food additives, or GMOs either. Testing & Verification are long, expensive and difficult processes. This means bringing a product to market that requires those things will be expensive. Synthetically created, proprietary drug delivery concoctions are a product that is reasonable to impose testing on. Therefore it is reasonable that such things be expensive to bring to market. If these expenses are prohibitive for small-timers... well, too bad. Someone capable of affording the processes required to make sure the products are safe, in accordance with the public interest will be the one to supply the market.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/08 11:32:06


 
   
Made in us
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The problem I have with vaping, not a user myself, is there isn't enough testing for it.

Lots of companies do a lot of testing and trials before they release something medically or on the grocery store shelf level; even then, said companies don't catch everything and have to recall items quickly.

So to have something on the market with very little overall info on it seems foolish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 15:34:56


I'm back! 
   
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 Jihadin wrote:
I'm really tempted to try Native American brand of cig's. Straight dried tobacco.


You'll need to be careful with that. All the Native cigarettes in my state of NY are literally garbage. They taste like chemical filth. I think they're honestly made with floor sweepings and spit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Yet "bath crystals" and "synthetic weed" are sold in many of your finer convenience stores. You now the stuff where people take it and end up trying to eat somebody's face...


You know that thing where you keep repeating a lie?

The Miami case has literally zero to do with any bath salts besides media hysteria. Like they do with every single drug.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/08 17:03:47


 
   
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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Nydhog wrote:
It is easier to start a brewery or a distillery (and cheaper in most states) than it will be to manufacture juice or vaporizers if this stays.

Are you speaking from experience? Because I don't think it's as easy to start a brewery as you seem to think it is.

And by the way, it should be hard to manufacture untested chemicals that people inhale.


Experience in going through the opening a meadery. Lots of acquaintances as well doing craft beers.

In KY is basically for wine "give us a hundred bucks and we will come check if you have running water" then they license. No joke you can run a winery out of a garage here.

WAR IS ALL WE KNOW
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Brussels Sprouts.

 
   
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In the UK it is being promoted as a healthier alternative. The National Health service is currently reviewing prescribing it to smokers.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/08August/Pages/E-cigarettes-95-per-cent-less-harmful-than-smoking-says-report.aspx

Regulation is important if only to ensure that the devices are safe and that the liquids are produced to a minimum quality standard.

I used it to effectively quit but I still use it so not sure if I have actually quit but I have not had a cigarette in over a year and can't understand why I didn't give up sooner. But I also don't plan on quitting vaping anytime soon either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 20:14:54


 
   
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 nurgle86 wrote:
In the UK it is being promoted as a healthier alternative. The National Health service is currently reviewing prescribing it to smokers.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/08August/Pages/E-cigarettes-95-per-cent-less-harmful-than-smoking-says-report.aspx

Regulation is important if only to ensure that the devices are safe and that the liquids are produced to a minimum quality standard.


They should have been classed as medical devices. This would have significantly limited how they could be advertised (it really annoys me that they are being sold as cool and sexy) and also have provided strict standards for manufacture and safety.

   
 
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