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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 00:52:56
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Walk/drive/deep strike past them.
Shoot the other things.
Seize the objectives.
Win the game.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 01:00:50
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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Traditio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:The Tetrad is a cool idea, but falls flat because Princes are the game's single most worthless MC due to how badly overcosted they are. if you can't kill a tooled DP, then you're playing the wrong game.
Ok. Find a space marine player who doesn't run grav or librarians. Any space marine player you want. You bring your infernal tetrad list. For funsies, let's make it a 1200 point game.
You have to let your opponent play the tetrad list, and you have to play the space marine list.
Tell me how much fun you have.
1. If all your opponent is allowed is 4 Princes in a (badly under equipped) Tetrad formation, just play to mission and laugh as you auto-win!
2. I've lost my DP to bolters. Why? Because he has to land at some point if he's going to have any meaningful impact on the game! Hell, I've lost count of the number of times I've been grounded by flashlights, bolters, shootas and similar small arms. And there's the trick to fighting FMC's, especially really awful ones like Princes; hit them with small arms/auto-hitting psy powers. All it takes is a single wound, and now they're running a 33% chance at face planting.
I've also outright nuked multiple DP's in one go with a double blast of Cleansing Flame... T5/W4 is literally just the same as taking out 4 Space Marine bikers.
If you can kill a Bike squad, you can deal with a DP.
If you can kill a biker/Ravenwing army, you can easily deal with the Tetrad.
If those Princes simply stay airborn all game to limit the shooting damage they take, they're not actively killing much outside of a Psy Shriek or Lash or (if you're lucky) the Tzeentch Str.D power/Flickering Fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 01:04:01
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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You know that psychic scream can't hit FMC when they are flying, don't you ?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 01:04:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 01:19:30
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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godardc wrote:You know that psychic scream can't hit FMC when they are flying, don't you ?
Novas are your very best friend.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 01:29:53
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm
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godardc wrote:You know that psychic scream can't hit FMC when they are flying, don't you ?
New FAQ states that scream and other similar witchfires with no profile don't roll to hit. Honestly it's not a very tough list to take on if they go the summoning route they won't have enough dice to summon enough and use other powers to interact with the board.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 01:54:44
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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francieum wrote: godardc wrote:You know that psychic scream can't hit FMC when they are flying, don't you ?
New FAQ states that scream and other similar witchfires with no profile don't roll to hit. Honestly it's not a very tough list to take on if they go the summoning route they won't have enough dice to summon enough and use other powers to interact with the board.
Forgot about those new FAQ draft.
but then, it still makes no sense to me that people even had trouble figuring out how powers like Psy Shriek worked in the first place... And keep in mind that Princes have Ld9, meaning they're somewhat rip for screeching to death. (and Shriek also happily ignores both armour & cover, so jinking is a non-factor)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 02:04:05
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Traditio wrote:I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:
If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.
Yes. That is a crazy idea, because your idea of an answer is "I must be able to kill it easily", it ignores that some things are simply hard to kill but can be balanced in other ways (like low damage output, or not being able to capture objectives without committing suicide). There's more than one way to win a game than killing everything on your opponent's force within a couple of turns.
It also ignores the very rock-paper-scissors nature of 40k. Just because your army only has 1 rock options doesn't make every scissors option overpowered.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 02:07:26
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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... he also, specifically, doesn't use either of the remaining two rock options available to him.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 02:47:02
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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How to beat Tetrad: Take a squadron of vindicators and hit them all with incidental damage from the S10 ap2 ignore cover 10" blast. Just because your transports are boxes doesn't mean you shouldn't think outside of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 02:48:56
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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StarHunter25 wrote:How to beat Tetrad: Take a squadron of vindicators and hit them all with incidental damage from the S10 ap2 ignore cover 10" blast. Just because your transports are boxes doesn't mean you shouldn't think outside of them.
Can you actually do that?
I was under the impression that fliers can't be hit by blasts or flamers while in the air.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 02:57:23
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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You can when they land to assault.
If they don't (which they won't) you can't unless you are using DFtS and they are next to the Skyfire objective.
Not that it matters because they can't kill much of anything anyway. If you waste your shooting on them you actually make them almost worth their points by diverting your entire army's firepower. If you shoot the rest of the Daemon army then they're just a 1200 point waste themselves, because they can't kill more than a few tactical each a turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:18:39
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Matt.Kingsley 690134 wrote:Not that it matters because they can't kill much of anything anyway. If you waste your shooting on them you actually make them almost worth their points by diverting your entire army's firepower. If you shoot the rest of the Daemon army then they're just a 1200 point waste themselves, because they can't kill more than a few tactical each a turn.
1200 points is roughly 2/3s of your army.
Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Seriously think about this from your opponent's perspective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:1. If all your opponent is allowed is 4 Princes in a (badly under equipped) Tetrad formation, just play to mission and laugh as you auto-win!
I don't primarily care about winning.I'm not particularly bothered if you win every single game.
I want to shoot stuff.
If you have 3 models left at the end of the game, started with 100, and you still win? I don't care. That's a fun game for me.
I've also outright nuked multiple DP's in one go with a double blast of Cleansing Flame... T5/W4 is literally just the same as taking out 4 Space Marine bikers.
Except not. Because 1: they're flying. 2. They aren't actually going to be T5 with a 3+ armor save. That's going to become T8 flying with a 2+ (potentially rerollable?) jink or invuln.
No thanks. I don't want to play against that.
If you can kill a Bike squad, you can deal with a DP.
With all due respect, I'm pretty sure that we both know that this is false.
If you can kill a biker/Ravenwing army, you can easily deal with the Tetrad.
Ravenwing is patently OP. Do you really wish to dispute this?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/08 04:23:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:23:12
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Traditio wrote:Matt.Kingsley 690134 wrote:Not that it matters because they can't kill much of anything anyway. If you waste your shooting on them you actually make them almost worth their points by diverting your entire army's firepower. If you shoot the rest of the Daemon army then they're just a 1200 point waste themselves, because they can't kill more than a few tactical each a turn.
1200 points is roughly 2/3s of your army.
Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Seriously think about this from your opponent's perspective.
In this scenario is your opponent the one who took 1200pts of flying demons or the one playing against the 1200pts of flying demons?
If it's the former, I imagine they're thinking "Damn, why did I take so many points of flying demons, my opponent just wiped out the rest of my army now I'm screwed".
If it's the latter, I imagine they're thinking "Ha, what an idiot who took 1200pts of flying demons, I'll just take out the rest of their army, take objectives and if they try to land to take an objective I'll destroy them".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:25:43
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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AllSeeingSkinke wrote:In this scenario is your opponent the one who took 1200pts of flying demons or the one playing against the 1200pts of flying demons?
If it's the former, I imagine they're thinking "Damn, why did I take so many points of flying demons, my opponent just wiped out the rest of my army now I'm screwed".
If it's the latter, I imagine they're thinking "Ha, what an idiot who took 1200pts of flying demons, I'll just take out the rest of their army, take objectives and if they try to land to take an objective I'll destroy them".
The princes are basically just distraction carnifexes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:38:32
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Traditio wrote: JimOnMars wrote:BrianDavion wrote:wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince
Psychic shriek.
I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:
If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.
in this case it's more "if group X is supposed to be a faction that is purpose equipped to defeat faction Y, but lacks the specialty tools to be able to handle a reasonably common element of them" something is wrong.
my fix would be develop a new psykic power that gives the caster and his unit skyfire, give that to purgation squads. problem is solved and purgation squads have a use within the grey knight order of battle
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:39:12
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Traditio wrote:Matt.Kingsley 690134 wrote:Not that it matters because they can't kill much of anything anyway. If you waste your shooting on them you actually make them almost worth their points by diverting your entire army's firepower. If you shoot the rest of the Daemon army then they're just a 1200 point waste themselves, because they can't kill more than a few tactical each a turn. 1200 points is roughly 2/3s of your army. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? Seriously think about this from your opponent's perspective. Yeah, it's a ridiculous waste of points. If I ever ran this I know my opponent would be thinking they're up for an easy game (and they'd be right). I've also outright nuked multiple DP's in one go with a double blast of Cleansing Flame... T5/W4 is literally just the same as taking out 4 Space Marine bikers. Except not. Because 1: they're flying. 2. They aren't actually going to be T5 with a 3+ armor save. That's going to become T8 flying with a 2+ (potentially rerollable?) jink or invuln. No thanks. I don't want to play against that. Only 3 of them can even roll for Iron Arm (and it isn't guaranteed) The only way for a 2++ is a Grimouir + Divination or Malefic powers, which means an even lower chance of getting Iron Arm and a chance of getting stuck with a 6++. This will only give 1 DP a 2++ and only the Tz one can re-roll save rolls of a 1. Only 1 of them has an innate 2+ jink, the Nurgle Prince. The only other way is with a Telepathy power (less chances for Iron Arm). Jinking also puts the already pathetic damage output of the Tetrad down to almost nill. Getting off all those Shroudings, Cursed Earths, Forewarnings and Iron Arms require a lot of Warp Charges that then aren't being used to use any Psychic shooting attacks they may have. Also note the Khornate prince can't be a Psyker (unless you make the Tz prince your warlord and roll the Psyker level warlord trait, which'll make him a lvl 1 Psyker) and as such will always be T5 (6 with 3+ Princes alive). All that just to make an already near-unkillable point sink even more unkillable and ignorable by reducing their already pathetic damage output to almost 0. What a waste of 1200pts. If I was to face that I'd be cheering for the easy game. If you can kill a Bike squad, you can deal with a DP. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure that we both know that this is false. It's true if they aren't flying and getting ready to assault you for some reason. I only bring it up because you complained about them assaulting earlier because it'll never happen. Once again this seems to boil down to your incessant need to be able to kill anything and everything easily with boltguns. EDIT: Traditio wrote:AllSeeingSkinke wrote:In this scenario is your opponent the one who took 1200pts of flying demons or the one playing against the 1200pts of flying demons? If it's the former, I imagine they're thinking "Damn, why did I take so many points of flying demons, my opponent just wiped out the rest of my army now I'm screwed". If it's the latter, I imagine they're thinking "Ha, what an idiot who took 1200pts of flying demons, I'll just take out the rest of their army, take objectives and if they try to land to take an objective I'll destroy them". The princes are basically just distraction carnifexes? Yes. A 1200 point distraction carnifex that has an even lower damage output.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 04:40:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 04:48:39
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Matt.Kingsley wrote:Yeah, it's a ridiculous waste of points. If I ever ran this I know my opponent would be thinking they're up for an easy game (and they'd be right).
I don't want an easy game. I want to shoot stuff.
If I wanted an easy game, there are other ways to accomplish this.
I could challenge very old women to arm-wrestling contests, for example.
Only 3 of them can even roll for Iron Arm (and it isn't guaranteed)
The only way for a 2++ is a Grimouir + Divination or Malefic powers, which means an even lower chance of getting Iron Arm and a chance of getting stuck with a 6++. This will only give 1 DP a 2++ and only the Tz one can re-roll save rolls of a 1.
Only 1 of them has an innate 2+ jink, the Nurgle Prince. The only other way is with a Telepathy power (less chances for Iron Arm). Jinking also puts the already pathetic damage output of the Tetrad down to almost nill.
Getting off all those Shroudings, Cursed Earths, Forewarnings and Iron Arms require a lot of Warp Charges that then aren't being used to use any Psychic shooting attacks they may have. Also note the Khornate prince can't be a Psyker (unless you make the Tz prince your warlord and roll the Psyker level warlord trait, which'll make him a lvl 1 Psyker) and as such will always be T5 (6 with 3+ Princes alive).
All that just to make an already near-unkillable point sink even more unkillable and ignorable by reducing their already pathetic damage output to almost 0. What a waste of 1200pts. If I was to face that I'd be cheering for the easy game.
I only wish to emphasize the bolded section of your posting. Nothing in 40k should be near unkillable. Period.
It's true if they aren't flying and getting ready to assault you for some reason.
It's only true if they don't have a higher toughness, FNP, rerollable saves, etc.
Which, in concreto? Often is not the case. The opposite holds.
I only bring it up because you complained about them assaulting earlier because it'll never happen.
If it's the latter, I imagine they're thinking "Ha, what an idiot who took 1200pts of flying demons, I'll just take out the rest of their army, take objectives and if they try to land to take an objective I'll destroy them".
IOW: "I'd be happy that I get to play hide and seek/keep away from the unkillable giant monster."
Sorry, but that's not the game I want to play. I want to shoot stuff.
Yes. A 1200 point distraction carnifex that has an even lower damage output.
Good to know.
I still refuse to play against the Infernal Tetrad, but very good to know in games in which a demon prince is used as an HQ choice.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/08 04:53:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:13:49
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Traditio wrote:Matt.Kingsley wrote:Yeah, it's a ridiculous waste of points. If I ever ran this I know my opponent would be thinking they're up for an easy game (and they'd be right). I don't want an easy game. I want to shoot stuff. If I wanted an easy game, there are other ways to accomplish this. I could challenge very old women to arm-wrestling contests, for example.
"I can't beat it the way I want" is a pretty petty argument. If someone in your gaming group is running that set up and everyone else in your group with half a brain figures out how easy it is to beat them.... err... they'll probably stop playing it when they lose game after game after game, in which case it becomes a non-issue.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 05:14:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:25:30
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Traditio wrote:Matt.Kingsley wrote:Yeah, it's a ridiculous waste of points. If I ever ran this I know my opponent would be thinking they're up for an easy game (and they'd be right). I don't want an easy game. I want to shoot stuff. If I wanted an easy game, there are other ways to accomplish this. I could challenge very old women to arm-wrestling contests, for example. Unfortunately for you then being able to kill everything isn't the sole point of this game. It's true if they aren't flying and getting ready to assault you for some reason. It's only true if they don't have a higher toughness, FNP, rerollable saves, etc. Which, in concreto? Often is not the case. The opposite holds. not really, since such a combination requires insane luck to not only a) get all the powers you need but also b) be able to cast them all in the one turn along with everything else you have to do. Only 1 DP can get anywhere close to a re-rollable save (the Tz Prince with it's re-roll saves of a 1). The Khorne DP can't even get Iron Army for the toughness boost. Where are you getting FNP from? Endurance? That's even more stuff to cast. The lowest amount of dice required for this apparently common monstrosity is 6 dice. The chance of it all successful (without Deny the Witch factored in)? 1.56%. That's the change you get all those powers off with just 6 dice. With all 9 dice from the Tetrad + the D6 you'll get every phase, 21%. With the 3 from Fateweaver and the 10 from the 5 units of pink horrors you can take on top of the fully kitted out Tetrad at 2000pts (assuming you haven't already killed them for some reason) on top of that, it finally becomes a 75.7% chance. Which is ridiculous and a waste. a daemon player using most of their warp charges to make 1 lone DP unkillable for a turn to be able to charge with it is a terrible idea. It's no where near as common of an occurrence as you make out. I only bring it up because you complained about them assaulting earlier because it'll never happen. If it's the latter, I imagine they're thinking "Ha, what an idiot who took 1200pts of flying demons, I'll just take out the rest of their army, take objectives and if they try to land to take an objective I'll destroy them". IOW: "I'd be happy that I get to play hide and seek/keep away from the unkillable giant monster." Sorry, but that's not the game I want to play. I want to shoot stuff. Which is fine. Unfortunately for you 40k is not a game of just mindlessly killing everything.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 05:27:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:28:22
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Lady of the Lake
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Traditio wrote:StarHunter25 wrote:How to beat Tetrad: Take a squadron of vindicators and hit them all with incidental damage from the S10 ap2 ignore cover 10" blast. Just because your transports are boxes doesn't mean you shouldn't think outside of them.
Can you actually do that?
I was under the impression that fliers can't be hit by blasts or flamers while in the air.
IIRC you can while they are gliding, but not while they are swooping. Gliding is basically just a jump MC. While swooping is when they have hard to hit and need skyfire and such like flyers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:31:05
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Well, flyers were already worse than FMCS... You don't see marine armies taking as many stormtalons you can fit into a list, after all.
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warboss wrote:Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:43:44
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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I only wish to emphasize the bolded section of your posting. Nothing in 40k should be near unkillable. Period.
Yeah, but, there are many units in the game that can be, with the proper build, and there have been such units in the game for many, many editions now.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 05:51:37
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Psienesis wrote:I only wish to emphasize the bolded section of your posting. Nothing in 40k should be near unkillable. Period.
Yeah, but, there are many units in the game that can be, with the proper build, and there have been such units in the game for many, many editions now.
I actually don't have any problem with near-unkillable things in wargames. As long as they're balanced by other means.
In general (not talking specifically about 40k here) it adds to the flavour of a game to have some glass units and some tanking units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 07:21:40
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Traditio wrote: JimOnMars wrote:BrianDavion wrote:wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince
Psychic shriek.
I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:
If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.
I don't know if I agree with that. 40k has an awful lot of stuff in it, and if you assume that every codex as 2 completely different methods of dealing with each and every thing, well, you assume wrong. It might be nice, but it's not going to happen.
Besides, you have the Gatling Psilencer...not every turn you get a wound from this, but when you do (assuming you got force) the beastie dies. Not perfect, but that's 2 methods.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 08:19:15
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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JimOnMars wrote:Traditio wrote: JimOnMars wrote:BrianDavion wrote:wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince
Psychic shriek.
I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:
If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.
I don't know if I agree with that. 40k has an awful lot of stuff in it, and if you assume that every codex as 2 completely different methods of dealing with each and every thing, well, you assume wrong. It might be nice, but it's not going to happen.
Besides, you have the Gatling Psilencer...not every turn you get a wound from this, but when you do (assuming you got force) the beastie dies. Not perfect, but that's 2 methods.
when the only answer to every thing GKs have to face is "take a dreadknight" that's kind of a problem
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 11:01:18
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Psienesis wrote:Walk/drive/deep strike past them.
Shoot the other things.
Seize the objectives.
Win the game.
This.
You don't have to kill everything. Of course, you'll say "But that's not how I want to play it!"
Good for you. Play someone else - your needs and wants are as valid as your opponent. And if they want to bring a frankly overpriced sponge to the table, I'd welcome that.
People have given you advice and ways to kill it. You don't want to use their tactics. That's on you - if you want to try and cut a cake with a spoon, go ahead and try. Just don't complain when you can't.
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They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 13:32:04
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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BrianDavion wrote: JimOnMars wrote:Traditio wrote: JimOnMars wrote:BrianDavion wrote:wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince
Psychic shriek.
I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:
If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.
I don't know if I agree with that. 40k has an awful lot of stuff in it, and if you assume that every codex as 2 completely different methods of dealing with each and every thing, well, you assume wrong. It might be nice, but it's not going to happen.
Besides, you have the Gatling Psilencer...not every turn you get a wound from this, but when you do (assuming you got force) the beastie dies. Not perfect, but that's 2 methods.
when the only answer to every thing GKs have to face is "take a dreadknight" that's kind of a problem
Take Purifyers. Cleansing Flame is murder to FMC's in general, and is hilariously good at outright nuking Princes in one shot...
You get an average of 7/S5 auto-hits per cast. And with Combat Squads, you can go for double blasts.
I actually really enjoy taking Santic on Ahriman. Combine it with a Black Legion Sorc w/Last Memory, and FMC's are about the one thing that CSM's are actually quite decent at dealing with!
@Traditio: You do realise that Daemon Princes are T5 I hope? That's downright insulting for an MC. Seriously, just start lighting them up the second they land with your basic grunts, and/or, if there's nothing else to shoot at, take some pot shots at the swooping ones.
33% chance to wound per hit from your basic small arms is amazing against any MC. Against those Nurgle ones, use your Sterns - either the 2+ to-wound rounds, or use your Dragonfire rounds which ignore cover!
I play mostly Tzeentch Daemons, and the Prince is literally the single worst model I can take in my entire codex! The only way to keep him relatively 'safe' is to keep him swooping, and realise that my 300pts investment is only good for a random handful of S5 shots in the Psychic phase. (or a Str.D shot if he rolled lucky)
The second he lands, (or worse, gets Grounded, which is pretty common), he's a dead duck. Biomancy & Iron Arm fishing is not viable for any Prince (too many pts, and if you don't get it, you've locked 300+ pts into a fragile as gak platform that now has massively limited range).
Most people take Telepathy, since Psy Shriek is probably the game's best Primaris, and Invis. Occasionally, you'll see Malefic instead if someone is running a Clown Car list. (which btw, you should really like, since it brings in lots and lots of easy bolter fodder, and you thus get to kill tons of gak!  )
Like I said, if you can deal with a squad of 4 Space Marine bikers, you can deal with a Daemon Prince.
For gak's sake, considering they always take Grav, the Bikers are actually far more of threat that the supposed big stampy, immortal death machine that people assume DP's naturally are!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 18:39:35
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Traditio wrote:[
2. Their threat range in the shooting phase is at least 12 inches (or however far they can fly) + the threat range of their guns, if they have any.
This is how I know your here to just bitch and moan about DPs and you actually have rarely played Dps. None of them could ever have guns or take guns. They are a massive point sink. Take a bunch of gunships/flyers for half their point cost(not sure how dfts affects this). Shootem down. Mop up with objectives.
In other news does this mean that my flyers like a chaos raptor gunship doesn't have innate skyfire any more?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/08 19:08:52
Subject: Re:Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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Dayknight wrote:Traditio wrote:[
2. Their threat range in the shooting phase is at least 12 inches (or however far they can fly) + the threat range of their guns, if they have any.
This is how I know your here to just bitch and moan about DPs and you actually have rarely played Dps. None of them could ever have guns or take guns. They are a massive point sink. Take a bunch of gunships/flyers for half their point cost(not sure how dfts affects this). Shootem down. Mop up with objectives.
In other news does this mean that my flyers like a chaos raptor gunship doesn't have innate skyfire any more?
To be fair, a CSM Prince can take the Burning Brand, while the Chaos Daemons ones can take a 2D6/ Str user Lash, if you mark them Slaanesh.
The Daemon versions can also potentially luck into the odd shooting power through our Gifts, but on the whole, the only one that's really worth keeping is the S5 template one from the Lesser Gifts table.
Any other shooting though is psychic based, and thus vastly inferior.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/08 19:10:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 12:04:39
Subject: Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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francieum wrote: godardc wrote:You know that psychic scream can't hit FMC when they are flying, don't you ?
New FAQ states that scream and other similar witchfires with no profile don't roll to hit. Honestly it's not a very tough list to take on if they go the summoning route they won't have enough dice to summon enough and use other powers to interact with the board.
Unless it's been updated, that's a draft. A draft isn't in use...yet. Everything is subject to change.
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Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
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