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Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?

I noticed in the new book that only fighters get skyfire mode anymore, and im ok with that, but balanced against flying MCs who still get the option it looks like my one guaranteed way to deal with flying MCs (storm wing) will not be able to do so but that infernal tetrad will still bust up my flyers in return.

What do you guys think?

edit: i think they are trying to reintroduce things like hydras and hunters/stalkers

I think MC's are the worst thing about 6th/7th.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Are flyers worse now because flying MCs can still get skyfire all day everyday?

I noticed in the new book that only fighters get skyfire mode anymore, and im ok with that, but balanced against flying MCs who still get the option it looks like my one guaranteed way to deal with flying MCs (storm wing) will not be able to do so but that infernal tetrad will still bust up my flyers in return.

What do you guys think?

edit: i think they are trying to reintroduce things like hydras and hunters/stalkers

I think if you're losing to an Infernal Tetrad formation, the flyer vs. FMC rules aren't the problem, since that's one of the game's outright worst formations.

I agree that it is another advantage to the FMC, and I don't think they need it.
You are probably right: the cheap little hydras/stalkers that everyone can put into their list, costing tons of money, seem to be the true winner.

wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince

Experiment 626 wrote:I think if you're losing to an Infernal Tetrad formation, the flyer vs. FMC rules aren't the problem, since that's one of the game's outright worst formations.

Combined with psychic powers, we're talking about 4 flying monstrous creatures with at least 3+ saves, probably other saves as well, and rerollable ones at that.

Please explain to me how a space marine player can kill 4 fully kitted out flying demon princes.

Grav-cannons.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Grav-cannons.

I don't even think that would be particularly effective.

1. Grav-cannons don't have skyfire.
2. 2+ jinks are not outside of a demon prince's capabilities. Possibly rerollable?

At any rate, can you think of any method aside from grav cannons?

If you can't, then the infernal tetrad is OP.

Librarians can confer ignores cover to Grav-cents.So no jinks. With the amount of shots Grav-cents vomit out along with prescience you shouldn't have any issues killing Demon Princes.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Librarians can confer ignores cover to Grav-cents. And invisibility too if I'm not mistaken. So no jinks.

And so we're right back to grav centurions + librarius conclave.

Do you have an alternative method?

What is wrong with that method? If you give them invisibility too it's damned hard to kill.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What is wrong with that method? If you give them invisibility too it's damned hard to kill.

Can you think of an alternative method or not?

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What is wrong with that method? If you give them invisibility too it's damned hard to kill.

Can you think of an alternative method or not?

Can you tell me what is wrong with that method? If you want an alternative use Grav-bikers with a bike mounted conclave. Not as beefy but a lot more mobile.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What is wrong with that method? If you give them invisibility too it's damned hard to kill.

Can you think of an alternative method or not?

Can you tell me what is wrong with that method? If you want an alternative use Grav-bikers with a bike mounted conclave. Not as beefy but a lot more mobile.

If you think about it, it's really the right tool for the right job... After all, what better way to pull a flying unit down to earth but with the invisible hand of gravity!

BrianDavion wrote:
wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince

Psychic shriek.

TheCustomLime wrote:Can you tell me what is wrong with that method? If you want an alternative use Grav-bikers with a bike mounted conclave. Not as beefy but a lot more mobile.

What you essentially are saying is that the only means that the SM codex has to deal with that particular formation is librarius conclave + grav.

Is that basically your claim?

Pure grey knights don't have access to grav

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Librarians can confer ignores cover to Grav-cents. And invisibility too if I'm not mistaken. So no jinks.

And so we're right back to grav centurions + librarius conclave.

Do you have an alternative method?

I tried using 10 Las+plas razorbacks last time I fought one but it took all the firepower of all of them for 2 turns (plus devastators, 6 5 man squads with plasma, and librarians) to kill one, and the other one got all of its wounds back. I REALLY REALLY hate that list

generalchaos34 wrote:I tried using 10 Las+plas razorbacks last time I fought one but it took all the firepower of all of them for 2 turns (plus devastators, 6 5 man squads with plasma, and librarians) to kill one, and the other one got all of its wounds back. I REALLY REALLY hate that list

I also hate that list.

I don't run grav or librarians.

Traditio wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:Can you tell me what is wrong with that method? If you want an alternative use Grav-bikers with a bike mounted conclave. Not as beefy but a lot more mobile.

What you essentially are saying is that the only means that the SM codex has to deal with that particular formation is librarius conclave + grav.

Is that basically your claim?

No, just the most brutally efficient one. You can use massed Plasma, the new marine flyer in numbers or massed Lascannon spam too. It's just not as good as killing... well, everything. This isn't much conclave+grav can't kill.

Traditio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:I think if you're losing to an Infernal Tetrad formation, the flyer vs. FMC rules aren't the problem, since that's one of the game's outright worst formations.

Combined with psychic powers, we're talking about 4 flying monstrous creatures with at least 3+ saves, probably other saves as well, and rerollable ones at that.

Please explain to me how a space marine player can kill 4 fully kitted out flying demon princes.

Each FMC has to be of a different god. You can't have 4 Tz DP's for the re-rolling saves of a 1.

1 has to be Nurgle
1 has the be Tzeentch
1 has to be Khorne
1 has to be Slaanesh

Of those, only 3 can be psykers.
Only 1 has native shrouding.
Only 1 has save re-rolls (of a 1 only).
Only 2 have any access to a non-psychic shooting attack, both with a 12" range, with 1 being a single-shot Str 6 and the other being 2D6 Str User (so 6 without iron arm and with 3+ princes).
Of the Psychic Powers, 2 of them only have access to 1 power that can damage flyers effectively (2 shot, Str 6 with an 18" range), while the other has access to 3 (the aforementioned 2 shot Str 6 18", a single shot strength D6+1 blast with a 24" range, so not reliable, and a 18" D shot that's WC3). Of those only the D shot is remotely scary to flyers. S6/5 spam is terrible.
Str 5 Vector Strikes aren't terribly scary to most Imperial flyers.

They can take a beating sure, but they won't be killing your flyers overly fast either. Even your infantry are fairly safe as they do next to no damage reliably for their points cost. Did I mention that this setup would cost almost 300pts (if not more) per Daemon Prince? Yeah, 1200ots for this garbage damage output.

I played against a nurgle daemons list yesterday (fun time all around; fantastic opponent, very nicely set up table/terrain, etc). I ended up wasting a ton of fire power on a nurgle demon prince who ended up being T8 with a 2+ jink and a 4+ FNP.

The one time I actually played against the infernal tetrade, my opponent coupled it with a fateweaver and pink horrors of tzeentch.

In practice, the infernal tetrad can be well nigh unkillable for any but the most OP/broken lists.

 JimOnMars wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince

Psychic shriek.

still their toolbox needs some expanding.

Traditio wrote:
I played against a nurgle daemons list yesterday (fun time all around; fantastic opponent, very nicely set up table/terrain, etc). I ended up wasting a ton of fire power on a nurgle demon prince who ended up being T8 with a 2+ jink and a 4+ FNP.

The one time I actually played against the infernal tetrade, my opponent coupled it with a fateweaver and pink horrors of tzeentch.

In practice, the infernal tetrad can be well nigh unkillable for any but the most OP/broken lists.

What was your list like? You can't just call a formation OP because you lost to it (Or took heavy damage from it).

 JimOnMars wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
wait only fighters get skyfire? that hurts a LOT of armies BAD. Grey Knights now no longer have any tools to handle flying creatures. like ya know... a winged deamon prince

Psychic shriek.

I'm just going to throw out a wild, crazy idea:

If, for any given x, you can point to one, and only one, answer for it in any given codex, then x needs to be nerfed. x is OP. x is too good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:What was your list like? You can't just call a formation OP because you lost to it (Or took heavy damage from it).

I blasted it with hellfire rounds after it landed. 2+ jink with 4+ FNP is pretty tanky.

I can't really complain, though. I killed Belakor with hellfire rounds on turn 1 or 2, basically, before it could do anything.

Traditio wrote:
I played against a nurgle daemons list yesterday (fun time all around; fantastic opponent, very nicely set up table/terrain, etc). I ended up wasting a ton of fire power on a nurgle demon prince who ended up being T8 with a 2+ jink and a 4+ FNP.

The one time I actually played against the infernal tetrade, my opponent coupled it with a fateweaver and pink horrors of tzeentch.

In practice, the infernal tetrad can be well nigh unkillable for any but the most OP/broken lists.

Exactly, they can be nigh-unkillable.
However for 300+pts per model and 1200 in total for all 4 you'd expect them to be able to take a beating.

The thing is they don't actually do anywhere near a proportional amount of damage for there heinous points cost, so you can and should ignore them. Who really cares if you lose a handful of marines a turn or if your flyers lose a hull point or 2 after being focused on by all 4. They have an incredibly short threat range (12-18") for the most part and require luck to get half-decent damaging powers.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Exactly, they can be nigh-unkillable.
However for 300+pts per model and 1200 in total for all 4 you'd expect them to be able to take a beating.

The thing is they don't actually do anywhere near a proportional amount of damage for there heinous points cost, so you can and should ignore them. Who really cares if you lose a handful of marines a turn or if your flyers lose a hull point or 2 after being focused on. They have an incredibly short threat range (12-18") for the most part and require luck to get half-decent damaging powers.

That's not really fair.

1. Their threat range in the psychic phase is at least 12 inches (or however far they can fly) + the range of their psychic abilities.

2. Their threat range in the shooting phase is at least 12 inches (or however far they can fly) + the threat range of their guns, if they have any.

3. Their threat range in the assault phase is 12 inches + 2d6. So let's say 19 inches.

At any rate, there's nothing fun about playing against an army of unkillable flying monsters. I don't care if I win. I want to kill things.

They can't assault until the turn after they land.

When they land they are all but dead to grav + plasma.

Most of their decent shooty Psychic Powers are only 12" or 18" and typically have a low number of shots. Only 3 of them are Psykers and they only have a small change of getting proper shooting powers. (Bio has 2, Div has none, Telepathy has 1, Tz has about 3, but the Prince can only roll up to 2 powers from it, Nurgle has like 1 and Slaanesh has 1.

Most are terrible novas. Many are 1 or 2 shots only.

As I said, only 2 have access to shotting attacks. Both are 12". 1 is a single S6 AP2 hit, the other is 2D6 S: User AP- hits. Bith are terrible.



And you can kill things. You can kill the 800 points of pink horrors (or other lesser daemons) and heralds that have been taken (or 500 if they took Fateweaver). I hear bolters can kill them in droves.

But does it really matter if you kill the 1200 points sink that can barely hurt you? It really shouldn't.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
They can't assault until the turn after they land.

When they land they are all but dead to grav + plasma.

Most of their decent shooty Psychic Powers are only 12" or 18" and typically have a low number of shots. Only 3 of them are Psykers and they only have a small change of getting proper shooting powers. (Bio has 2, Div has none, Telepathy has 1, Tz has about 3, but the Prince can only roll up to 2 powers from it, Nurgle has like 1 and Slaanesh has 1.

Most are terrible novas. Many are 1 or 2 shots only.

As I said, only 2 have access to shotting attacks. Both are 12". 1 is a single S6 AP2 hit, the other is 2D6 S: User AP- hits. Bith are terrible.



And you can kill things. You can kill the 800 points of pink horrors (or other lesser daemons) and heralds that have been taken (or 500 if they took Fateweaver). I hear bolters can kill them in droves.

But does it really matter if you kill the 1200 points sink that can barely hurt you? It really shouldn't.

There's also the small fact that Princes are just T5/W4 wusses... Even just 'bare bones', you're looking at:
Prince of Khorne w/Wings, Armour, Blade of Blood = 240pts
Prince of Tzeentch w/Wings, Armour, Lv2 = 280 pts
Prince of Nurgle w/Wings, Balesword, Lv2 = 270 pts
Prince of Slaanesh w/Wings, Armour, Lash, Lv2 = 285 pts

So even running the formation with only minimal upgrades, you're still sinking 1075pts into 4 models. Yeah, so broken!
Note that if you want to make each DP into a Lv3 psyker, you're adding yet another 75pts to the formation... so 1150pts, and you're still not seeing any of the *really* good upgrades, such as the Grimoire, or any number of the newer Artifacts from CotW. (ie: Impossible Robe for Tzeentch, Soulstealer/Silvershard for Slaanesh, Grotti the Nurgling for Nurgle, ANY of the Khorne relics!)

Even without twin-linking or Prescience, Grav cannons w/amps alone have the firepower to reliably put a couple wounds onto those Princes, especially if they take armour! (Actually, with armour, they're simply asking to be nuked by Grav.)
As soon as one goes down, the rest of them begin losing out on their bonuses.

The Tetrad is a cool idea, but falls flat because Princes are the game's single most worthless MC due to how badly overcosted they are. if you can't kill a tooled DP, then you're playing the wrong game.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:But does it really matter if you kill the 1200 points sink that can barely hurt you? It really shouldn't.

Yes. That means I can't touch the vast majority of your army.

That's not fun to play against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:The Tetrad is a cool idea, but falls flat because Princes are the game's single most worthless MC due to how badly overcosted they are. if you can't kill a tooled DP, then you're playing the wrong game.

Ok. Find a space marine player who doesn't run grav or librarians. Any space marine player you want. You bring your infernal tetrad list. For funsies, let's make it a 1200 point game.

You have to let your opponent play the tetrad list, and you have to play the space marine list.

Tell me how much fun you have.