Do you plan to get Death from the Skies ?

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**Dakkafang Dreggrim**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

The difference between DftS and Angels of Death is simple.

AoD is a supplement. Essentially it's an add on for a codex. It does not modify the core game rules in the BRB. It does not modify the rules for your units that you may well be familiar with from your own codex. It does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game.

DftS adds a whole new phase. It forcibly changes the rules on every listed flyer in 40k - as I have stated in an example earlier...imagine you show up for a game. And you brought Flyer X as your anti-air defense. Sure, Flyer X has a few bombs but you tend to use it as anti-air. It keeps you safe from your opponents Flyer Ys, which are just plain nasty.

Your opponent shows up, with a supplement that you don't have and tells you 'these rules override all other rules.' He then informs you that Flyer X is now a bomber so doesn't have Skyfire. Meanwhile his Flyer Ys are fighters so get bonuses and have skyfire. Suddenly you are at a huge disadvantage. You suddenly can only hit his Flyers on 6s. Meanwhile he can hit you normally. In addition he tells you there's this new phase. You roll dice. Your Flyer X is destroyed before you even get to bring it in. His Flyer Ys can conveniently attack your army. Your only anti-air defense was destroyed before you even got to do anything with it.

Or imagine you play an army that is heavily reliant on Cover...or Reserves. You know your opponent brings flyers...but these aren't that big a problem as you tend to minimalise what units he can harm by keeping them deployed safely or bringing them on when they are needed in the right spot. But along comes your opponent with DftS who tells you one of the following.

Oh, I'm fielding this formation so these flyers ignore your cover. Blat blat blat. Oh, I killed the things that provided your army cover. Guess that's it.

or...

Oh, I have Flyer Y. That means you have a -1 penalty to all your reserve rolls and I get a bonus.

You see, DftS not only introduces an entirely new phase that has the potential to kill off units before they're even deployed based on your luck with what is effectively Rock, Paper, Scissors....but it also modifies core rules just for a unit being Type X, Y or Z.

Angels of Death...doesn't do that. Nor does Crimson Slaughter. Nor does Curse of the Wulfen. Nor does Codex Orks. In fact, in any supplement or codex you pretty much have to pay points for the upgrades that ignore cover or interfere with reserve rolls...on top of purchasing the unit itself to use those upgrades. No unit gets it just for being Type X or Type Y. None of the Campaign supplements, army supplements or Codexes modify the rules in the BRB or their opponent's army. And yet DftS states it does.

Ok Ork player. Let's go.

How would you feel if you showed up, your Codex stated that your Trukks were Type X, had points cost Y and had save Z according to the Type X rules in the BRB.

Then I show up with a book you don't have - the reasons for you not having it are irrelevant. It could be you just didn't have the money. It could be you didn't use the particular units mentioned in it so it was no big deal. It could be that perhaps that particular aspect (VEHICLE RACING FROM BELOW EXTREME) wasn't that interesting to you - you know, you looked at it, thought maybe it would be a neat minigame but not for you... - and I tell you that your Trukks changed to Type X.1. Their cost is now Y2. And they lost the rules from the BRB. Oh, and btw I'm bringing this unit and formation, which is Type W and has an advantage against you. AND YOU HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST ME BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THESE ARE THE RULES.

Not only have your army's overall tactics been forced to suddenly changed (if you'd known about these changes you wouldn't have brought so many, or perhaps would have brought something else)...but points have potentially changed and the loss of the rules you were familiar with means that these units can no longer fill the role you took them for.

Would you continue that game? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. Not only am I being forced to adapt to my units forcibly having their roles and function changed...but my tactics for dealing with Type W vehicles may have to be completely changed, especially if I lost the ability to deal with them as I had before. That would not be a fun game. It's pretty much getting hyped up for a jog in the woods to be told that the woods were filled with spiders....as you showed up in your shorts to go jogging with no anti-spider clothing or anything as you pretty much were not expecting to be told about spiders...ten seconds before the jog started.

Let's put it this way.

AoD is a supplement. You know it might have...new units. Formations. Psychic Powers. Relics. Detachments.

Are any of these, as a core principle alien to you? Well. No. Units are found in codexes. Their types are in the BRB. Formations...are found in the BRB and codexes. Psychic powers...are detailed in the BRB. Detachments as well. The basic principle of each of these additions is not new.

Now, DftS brings an entirely new phase in which YOUR models can be lost based to a random dice roll before you even deploy them.

Do you remember why people hated the 2nd ed Tyranid Table and the 3rd ed Alaitoc Pathfinder chart? They hated them because they damaged units and caused casualties before the unit even did anything. But as hated as they were...they did not destroy the unit outright. This is an entirely new phase that, based on a dice roll...can destroy units outright.

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

Psychic powers are covered in the main rulebook. They have to be cast. There are drawbacks to them. They can also be countered. It is also widely agreed that the Geomancy lore is ridiculous and moving terrain is pretty fething stupid. That isn't helping your case much mate.

Ignoring LOS? Well, yes. Barrage weapons and indirect fire weapons are also detailed in the main rulebook. Same with weapons that ignore cover. Swapping units? There's warlord traits that let you redeploy which is functionally similar.

But here's the thing. None of these specifically impose themselves on YOUR army. The Angels of Death supplement does NOT tell you that your Unit X loses a special rule for being what it is. The supplement does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game that your opponent may not be aware of.

But at the end of the day...

You can still cry 'But the book says these are the rules.'

If your opponents don't want to play with them they won't. If your local club doesn't want to play with them? They won't. If the ITC doesn't want to play with them? They won't. You can bleat 'But it;s the rules' all you like.

No one is forcing you to play with them.

Just as no one is forcing them to play with you.

Yes I would continue to play, since those are the rules. Just like I kept playing after they removed the green tide and changed the way I had to play.

Things change, rules change. That's the nature of the game we play. Proclaiming that you want to Ingore new rules since they change your army is silly.

Just like any supplement DftS adds new formations and rules. I wish I could ignore the new W!G , but I can't since it's the updated rules. So sorry if DftS updated rules and changed things in a way you don't like.

My play group likes the rules and has accepted them as the new rules. Even if you ig ore the dogfight rules, the new patterns, formations , wings and Detachment are part of the game now.

Believe me I wish I could just ignore some rules and updates and supplements.

**DarkStarSabre**

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Yes I would continue to play, since those are the rules. Just like I kept playing after they removed the green tide and changed the way I had to play.

Really? They removed Green Tide? Did you show up to a game, have an opponent pull out a completely unrelated supplement and tell you 'Green Tide no longer exists because this book said so and this book says it is the rules.' No. You didn't. What you will find is that Green Tide disappeared from a Codex supplement when it was updated and iirc there's a couple of dozen threads about whether it can still be used or not - personally I'd say yes, especially since unit updates which technically replaced another (SW Iron Priests) have been confirmed as still able to be used - there is a precedent for this sort of approach.

That and I'm not TFG who is going to harp a sentence in a book as justification for putting his opponent on the spot by literally pulling the rug out from under his feet. (This is what you are advocating by the way.)

Things change, rules change. That's the nature of the game we play. Proclaiming that you want to Ingore new rules since they change your army is silly.

But here's the thing - if my Codex changes? That's not an issue. As I select the army from the Codex, naturally I would have to have an up to date Codex to use it. If the main core rules (that is, the BRB) cause a change? Not an issue. Because the core rules are required to play the game. Naturally I would need to have up to date core rulesets to play a game.

But DftS is NOT my Codex. NOR is it the core rules. It is a supplement, just as Escalation and Stronghold Assault were. For all intents and purposes it is optional. The only books that are ever listed as being required to play with a model are the relevant Codex and the core rules. Never any supplements. You can use any of the fancy bunkers or anything in a normal game. The difference is, they count as terrain. Not a huge impact, they still look good. But never would I enforce the building damage charts or different types of fortification on my opponents without their use either being allowed in the competition/event I am in OR their consent for a friendly game. Sorry, I'm not going to show up with a Reaver Titan for a casual pick up game or a friendly game.

Taking that mindset reminds me of a 9 year old kid that I came across on a weekend in my local GW a number of years ago. He went around asking people what army they played. If they said Orks or Tyranids he asked if they wanted a game. If you asked him what he played he would simply state 'Imperial Guard'. And he would then proceed to deploy an Armoured Company list from Chapter Approved (BUT THESE RULES ARE OFFICIAL). Bear in mind this was before Warp Blast was a Lance or Orks had any sort of real anti-tank or battlewagons.

Don't be that kid. That kid was a little gak. No one wanted to play that kid because all he did was spring a surprise power list on players who had armies least suited to deal with it.

Just like any supplement DftS adds new formations and rules. I wish I could ignore the new W!G , but I can't since it's the updated rules. So sorry if DftS updated rules and changed things in a way you don't like.

This is the third time I have made the following statement - unlike Supplements DftS ALSO adds an entirely new game phase and modifies existing units from Codexes and the core rules for Flyers.

This is the part that is offensive to most. This is me literally walking into your house, kicking over your $1k plasma TV and replacing it with a turtle and telling you that Turtles now replace TVs. Because this book said so and them's the rules.

It is NOT listed as a mandatory requirement to play 40k. No more than Stronghold Assault or Escalation are. Tell me, how many Stronghold Assault or Escalation games have you played? Since 6th? For me? Three. And all of them were arranged with my opponent.

My play group likes the rules and has accepted them as the new rules. Even if you ig ore the dogfight rules, the new patterns, formations , wings and Detachment are part of the game now.

Good for you. However, we are not your play group. I am not your play group. If you go to WHW in Nottingham for a pick up game you will have mixed results. Some might be ok, some might not. And contrary to belief you have NO right to call someone who refuses to play against you using that expansion out. You cannot force someone to play a game with you. Because a game is a social contract where both players aim to have fun and generally a good time. If your opponent does not want to slog through a further rule-bloated supplement which brings in content that did not exist in a previous context within the core rules then you cannot force them to do so.

Believe me I wish I could just ignore some rules and updates and supplements.

You can always choose to not play against an opponent using a particular supplement or expansion. However, it is worth noting that at tournaments and events the decision of which rules to use and which rulesets are in play are at the discretion of the TOs. Same with any ITC event. No amount of braying about what the book states will change that. Their house. Their rules.

First and foremost 40k is a game - a social contract between the players to have a good time.

Perhaps you could try speaking to your opponents and coming to mutual agreement in terms of expansions or supplements used rather than deliberately being a donkey cave braying about the book stating 'THESE ARE THE RULES NOW'.

Who knows? You might have a better time playing the game for doing so. You might actually enjoy it more.

**Kap'n Krump**

Nah, I fell for this once with the escalation book. Bought new rules, only to have them tied into a new game edition a couple months later.

I fully expect a new game edition in the relatively near future with these rules included.

So, no, I'll pass on paying $50 to learn how to play with models I rarely use.

**Dakkafang Dreggrim**

My play group likes DftS, adds a new aspect to the game. No one's complaining is ruins their army, they will adjust and keep playing game and having fun. And the new formations, patterns and Detachment are a lot of fun. Several have realised they will need to get flyers now or face the reserve penalty.

New things (good or bad) keep the game from.getting stale.

Some are just better excepting that things change than others I guess.

**Oldmike**

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
My play group likes DftS, adds a new aspect to the game. No one's complaining is ruins their army, they will adjust and keep playing game and having fun. And the new formations, patterns and Detachment are a lot of fun. Several have realised they will need to get flyers now or face the reserve penalty.

New things (good or bad) keep the game from.getting stale.

Some are just better excepting that things change than others I guess.

The problem I have is do I buy new flyers thinking this will be rolled into the main rules and sell my hell drake as it no longer has a role in my army?
Or do I just hold out and see what happens this fall

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh one more thing FW units will be the tell if they get DftS updates. If they do then expect it to be rolled in if they don't then it's a flash in the pan add on

**General Kroll**

Oldmike wrote:
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
My play group likes DftS, adds a new aspect to the game. No one's complaining is ruins their army, they will adjust and keep playing game and having fun. And the new formations, patterns and Detachment are a lot of fun. Several have realised they will need to get flyers now or face the reserve penalty.

New things (good or bad) keep the game from.getting stale.

Some are just better excepting that things change than others I guess.

The problem I have is do I buy new flyers thinking this will be rolled into the main rules and sell my hell drake as it no longer has a role in my army?
Or do I just hold out and see what happens this fall

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh one more thing FW units will be the tell if they get DftS updates. If they do then expect it to be rolled in if they don't then it's a flash in the pan add on

I just had a thought re flyers and the ally matrix. How does that work? As flyers are meant to be high above the troops, does the whole come the apocolypse thing matter?

In theory, if it doesn't matter, you could paint up a bunch of Stormhawks as renegades.....in theory.

**Ankhalagon**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

The difference between DftS and Angels of Death is simple.

AoD is a supplement. Essentially it's an add on for a codex. It does not modify the core game rules in the BRB. It does not modify the rules for your units that you may well be familiar with from your own codex. It does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game.

DftS adds a whole new phase. It forcibly changes the rules on every listed flyer in 40k - as I have stated in an example earlier...imagine you show up for a game. And you brought Flyer X as your anti-air defense. Sure, Flyer X has a few bombs but you tend to use it as anti-air. It keeps you safe from your opponents Flyer Ys, which are just plain nasty.

Your opponent shows up, with a supplement that you don't have and tells you 'these rules override all other rules.' He then informs you that Flyer X is now a bomber so doesn't have Skyfire. Meanwhile his Flyer Ys are fighters so get bonuses and have skyfire. Suddenly you are at a huge disadvantage. You suddenly can only hit his Flyers on 6s. Meanwhile he can hit you normally. In addition he tells you there's this new phase. You roll dice. Your Flyer X is destroyed before you even get to bring it in. His Flyer Ys can conveniently attack your army. Your only anti-air defense was destroyed before you even got to do anything with it.

Or imagine you play an army that is heavily reliant on Cover...or Reserves. You know your opponent brings flyers...but these aren't that big a problem as you tend to minimalise what units he can harm by keeping them deployed safely or bringing them on when they are needed in the right spot. But along comes your opponent with DftS who tells you one of the following.

Oh, I'm fielding this formation so these flyers ignore your cover. Blat blat blat. Oh, I killed the things that provided your army cover. Guess that's it.

or...

Oh, I have Flyer Y. That means you have a -1 penalty to all your reserve rolls and I get a bonus.

You see, DftS not only introduces an entirely new phase that has the potential to kill off units before they're even deployed based on your luck with what is effectively Rock, Paper, Scissors....but it also modifies core rules just for a unit being Type X, Y or Z.

Angels of Death...doesn't do that. Nor does Crimson Slaughter. Nor does Curse of the Wulfen. Nor does Codex Orks. In fact, in any supplement or codex you pretty much have to pay points for the upgrades that ignore cover or interfere with reserve rolls...on top of purchasing the unit itself to use those upgrades. No unit gets it just for being Type X or Type Y. None of the Campaign supplements, army supplements or Codexes modify the rules in the BRB or their opponent's army. And yet DftS states it does.

Ok Ork player. Let's go.

How would you feel if you showed up, your Codex stated that your Trukks were Type X, had points cost Y and had save Z according to the Type X rules in the BRB.

Then I show up with a book you don't have - the reasons for you not having it are irrelevant. It could be you just didn't have the money. It could be you didn't use the particular units mentioned in it so it was no big deal. It could be that perhaps that particular aspect (VEHICLE RACING FROM BELOW EXTREME) wasn't that interesting to you - you know, you looked at it, thought maybe it would be a neat minigame but not for you... - and I tell you that your Trukks changed to Type X.1. Their cost is now Y2. And they lost the rules from the BRB. Oh, and btw I'm bringing this unit and formation, which is Type W and has an advantage against you. AND YOU HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST ME BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THESE ARE THE RULES.

Not only have your army's overall tactics been forced to suddenly changed (if you'd known about these changes you wouldn't have brought so many, or perhaps would have brought something else)...but points have potentially changed and the loss of the rules you were familiar with means that these units can no longer fill the role you took them for.

Would you continue that game? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. Not only am I being forced to adapt to my units forcibly having their roles and function changed...but my tactics for dealing with Type W vehicles may have to be completely changed, especially if I lost the ability to deal with them as I had before. That would not be a fun game. It's pretty much getting hyped up for a jog in the woods to be told that the woods were filled with spiders....as you showed up in your shorts to go jogging with no anti-spider clothing or anything as you pretty much were not expecting to be told about spiders...ten seconds before the jog started.

Let's put it this way.

AoD is a supplement. You know it might have...new units. Formations. Psychic Powers. Relics. Detachments.

Are any of these, as a core principle alien to you? Well. No. Units are found in codexes. Their types are in the BRB. Formations...are found in the BRB and codexes. Psychic powers...are detailed in the BRB. Detachments as well. The basic principle of each of these additions is not new.

Now, DftS brings an entirely new phase in which YOUR models can be lost based to a random dice roll before you even deploy them.

Do you remember why people hated the 2nd ed Tyranid Table and the 3rd ed Alaitoc Pathfinder chart? They hated them because they damaged units and caused casualties before the unit even did anything. But as hated as they were...they did not destroy the unit outright. This is an entirely new phase that, based on a dice roll...can destroy units outright.

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

Psychic powers are covered in the main rulebook. They have to be cast. There are drawbacks to them. They can also be countered. It is also widely agreed that the Geomancy lore is ridiculous and moving terrain is pretty fething stupid. That isn't helping your case much mate.

Ignoring LOS? Well, yes. Barrage weapons and indirect fire weapons are also detailed in the main rulebook. Same with weapons that ignore cover. Swapping units? There's warlord traits that let you redeploy which is functionally similar.

But here's the thing. None of these specifically impose themselves on YOUR army. The Angels of Death supplement does NOT tell you that your Unit X loses a special rule for being what it is. The supplement does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game that your opponent may not be aware of.

But at the end of the day...

You can still cry 'But the book says these are the rules.'

If your opponents don't want to play with them they won't. If your local club doesn't want to play with them? They won't. If the ITC doesn't want to play with them? They won't. You can bleat 'But it;s the rules' all you like.

No one is forcing you to play with them.

Just as no one is forcing them to play with you.

This! So much!

But you have forgotten to mention, that a large junk of flyers have a little problem now, because GW just don`t talk to FW.....

**General Kroll**

Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?

**casvalremdeikun**

General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?

GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

**General Kroll**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?
GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

Great...I kind of want to see what the Xiphon is like in this ruleset, I much prefer it's looks to the Stormhawk.

**Toofast**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?
GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

I wonder what year that will happen. Don't you love it when GW sees fit to replace all the rules for flyers but only give us the new rules for half the flyers in the game? This kind of stuff is why I play 30k but somehow they managed to screw that up with this supplement too. I already talked to my group and every single person hates this book, so luckily we get to pretend it doesn't exist.

**locarno24**

I'd be amazed if you don't get a quick .PDF covering this from forgeworld pretty soon. It only takes one line and virtually no thought to say what each flyer should be.

Personally, I prefer the fact that the Xiphon should be more capable of hitting other flyers than the Fire Raptor. The only question mark really is the Thunderbolt; you could either make it a Fighter, or an Attack Craft but give the Kinetic Piercers 'Dogfight Missile'.

**kronk**

If next year's AdeptiCon HH events require Death from the Skies, then I'll buy it. Otherwise, no.

**General Kroll**

locarno24 wrote:
I'd be amazed if you don't get a quick .PDF covering this from forgeworld pretty soon. It only takes one line and virtually no thought to say what each flyer should be.

Personally, I prefer the fact that the Xiphon should be more capable of hitting other flyers than the Fire Raptor. The only question mark really is the Thunderbolt; you could either make it a Fighter, or an Attack Craft but give the Kinetic Piercers 'Dogfight Missile'.

Always liked the thunderbolt too, my guess is they will class it as a fighter and maybe give it the strafing run special rule or something to mitigate the -1BS against ground targets.

**The_Lion**

BossJakadakk wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

The difference between DftS and Angels of Death is simple.

AoD is a supplement. Essentially it's an add on for a codex. It does not modify the core game rules in the BRB. It does not modify the rules for your units that you may well be familiar with from your own codex. It does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game.

DftS adds a whole new phase. It forcibly changes the rules on every listed flyer in 40k - as I have stated in an example earlier...imagine you show up for a game. And you brought Flyer X as your anti-air defense. Sure, Flyer X has a few bombs but you tend to use it as anti-air. It keeps you safe from your opponents Flyer Ys, which are just plain nasty.

Your opponent shows up, with a supplement that you don't have and tells you 'these rules override all other rules.' He then informs you that Flyer X is now a bomber so doesn't have Skyfire. Meanwhile his Flyer Ys are fighters so get bonuses and have skyfire. Suddenly you are at a huge disadvantage. You suddenly can only hit his Flyers on 6s. Meanwhile he can hit you normally. In addition he tells you there's this new phase. You roll dice. Your Flyer X is destroyed before you even get to bring it in. His Flyer Ys can conveniently attack your army. Your only anti-air defense was destroyed before you even got to do anything with it.

Or imagine you play an army that is heavily reliant on Cover...or Reserves. You know your opponent brings flyers...but these aren't that big a problem as you tend to minimalise what units he can harm by keeping them deployed safely or bringing them on when they are needed in the right spot. But along comes your opponent with DftS who tells you one of the following.

Oh, I'm fielding this formation so these flyers ignore your cover. Blat blat blat. Oh, I killed the things that provided your army cover. Guess that's it.

or...

Oh, I have Flyer Y. That means you have a -1 penalty to all your reserve rolls and I get a bonus.

You see, DftS not only introduces an entirely new phase that has the potential to kill off units before they're even deployed based on your luck with what is effectively Rock, Paper, Scissors....but it also modifies core rules just for a unit being Type X, Y or Z.

Angels of Death...doesn't do that. Nor does Crimson Slaughter. Nor does Curse of the Wulfen. Nor does Codex Orks. In fact, in any supplement or codex you pretty much have to pay points for the upgrades that ignore cover or interfere with reserve rolls...on top of purchasing the unit itself to use those upgrades. No unit gets it just for being Type X or Type Y. None of the Campaign supplements, army supplements or Codexes modify the rules in the BRB or their opponent's army. And yet DftS states it does.

Ok Ork player. Let's go.

How would you feel if you showed up, your Codex stated that your Trukks were Type X, had points cost Y and had save Z according to the Type X rules in the BRB.

Then I show up with a book you don't have - the reasons for you not having it are irrelevant. It could be you just didn't have the money. It could be you didn't use the particular units mentioned in it so it was no big deal. It could be that perhaps that particular aspect (VEHICLE RACING FROM BELOW EXTREME) wasn't that interesting to you - you know, you looked at it, thought maybe it would be a neat minigame but not for you... - and I tell you that your Trukks changed to Type X.1. Their cost is now Y2. And they lost the rules from the BRB. Oh, and btw I'm bringing this unit and formation, which is Type W and has an advantage against you. AND YOU HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST ME BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THESE ARE THE RULES.

Not only have your army's overall tactics been forced to suddenly changed (if you'd known about these changes you wouldn't have brought so many, or perhaps would have brought something else)...but points have potentially changed and the loss of the rules you were familiar with means that these units can no longer fill the role you took them for.

Would you continue that game? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. Not only am I being forced to adapt to my units forcibly having their roles and function changed...but my tactics for dealing with Type W vehicles may have to be completely changed, especially if I lost the ability to deal with them as I had before. That would not be a fun game. It's pretty much getting hyped up for a jog in the woods to be told that the woods were filled with spiders....as you showed up in your shorts to go jogging with no anti-spider clothing or anything as you pretty much were not expecting to be told about spiders...ten seconds before the jog started.

Let's put it this way.

AoD is a supplement. You know it might have...new units. Formations. Psychic Powers. Relics. Detachments.

Are any of these, as a core principle alien to you? Well. No. Units are found in codexes. Their types are in the BRB. Formations...are found in the BRB and codexes. Psychic powers...are detailed in the BRB. Detachments as well. The basic principle of each of these additions is not new.

Now, DftS brings an entirely new phase in which YOUR models can be lost based to a random dice roll before you even deploy them.

Do you remember why people hated the 2nd ed Tyranid Table and the 3rd ed Alaitoc Pathfinder chart? They hated them because they damaged units and caused casualties before the unit even did anything. But as hated as they were...they did not destroy the unit outright. This is an entirely new phase that, based on a dice roll...can destroy units outright.

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

Psychic powers are covered in the main rulebook. They have to be cast. There are drawbacks to them. They can also be countered. It is also widely agreed that the Geomancy lore is ridiculous and moving terrain is pretty fething stupid. That isn't helping your case much mate.

Ignoring LOS? Well, yes. Barrage weapons and indirect fire weapons are also detailed in the main rulebook. Same with weapons that ignore cover. Swapping units? There's warlord traits that let you redeploy which is functionally similar.

But here's the thing. None of these specifically impose themselves on YOUR army. The Angels of Death supplement does NOT tell you that your Unit X loses a special rule for being what it is. The supplement does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game that your opponent may not be aware of.

But at the end of the day...

You can still cry 'But the book says these are the rules.'

If your opponents don't want to play with them they won't. If your local club doesn't want to play with them? They won't. If the ITC doesn't want to play with them? They won't. You can bleat 'But it;s the rules' all you like.

No one is forcing you to play with them.

Just as no one is forcing them to play with you.

This is perfect. Worded better than I could. This post is needed in a YMDC thread haha.

I very much agree very well put!!!!

**jasper76**

Not interested. I don't even like the rules from what I've read so far. This game doesn't need another phase, and needs to get simpler, not more complicated.

**casvalremdeikun**

Toofast wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?
GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

I wonder what year that will happen. Don't you love it when GW sees fit to replace all the rules for flyers but only give us the new rules for half the flyers in the game? This kind of stuff is why I play 30k but somehow they managed to screw that up with this supplement too. I already talked to my group and every single person hates this book, so luckily we get to pretend it doesn't exist.

I really don't see DFTS having widespread use in many circles due to issues with compatibility. It seems to me they should have had the FW stuff ready to go by the time the book actually released. Right hand-Left hand, I guess.

**General Kroll**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Toofast wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?
GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

I wonder what year that will happen. Don't you love it when GW sees fit to replace all the rules for flyers but only give us the new rules for half the flyers in the game? This kind of stuff is why I play 30k but somehow they managed to screw that up with this supplement too. I already talked to my group and every single person hates this book, so luckily we get to pretend it doesn't exist.
I really don't see DFTS having widespread use in many circles due to issues with compatibility. It seems to me they should have had the FW stuff ready to go by the time the book actually released. Right hand-Left hand, I guess.

I think it would only take an afternoons work to update it. They really should have had it done by now.

**casvalremdeikun**

General Kroll wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Toofast wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Has anyone asked GW / FW on Facebook if they intend on releasing an update to their flyers?
GW Facebook has said that FW is planning on releasing updates to their flyers.

I wonder what year that will happen. Don't you love it when GW sees fit to replace all the rules for flyers but only give us the new rules for half the flyers in the game? This kind of stuff is why I play 30k but somehow they managed to screw that up with this supplement too. I already talked to my group and every single person hates this book, so luckily we get to pretend it doesn't exist.
I really don't see DFTS having widespread use in many circles due to issues with compatibility. It seems to me they should have had the FW stuff ready to go by the time the book actually released. Right hand-Left hand, I guess.

I think it would only take an afternoons work to update it. They really should have had it done by now.

Indeed. They don't need to update datasheets, they just need a list of the new stats and classes for each flyer. Part of the reason I won't get this book. It could have cost half as much if they had left out the pointless retreads of the flyer profiles and just had a table with the stats and classes.

**CragHack**

Don't care about GW flyers, so I would only buy FW book. If they ever release it.

**Avadar**

I only have 1 Flyer for now, so I doubt I'll be buying it any time soon. However, I keep seeing this pop up:

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
Several have realised they will need to get flyers now or face the reserve penalty.

As far as I can see from the leaks, the reserve penalty only applies "If only one player has Flyers in Reserve at the end of the Dogfight phase." However, the Dogfight Phase states that "If only one player has Flyers in Reserve, or neither player does, then a Dogfight doe snot take place."

Am I wrong in thinking that means that if I have no flyers, then there is never a Dogfight Phase, thus no player will ever have Air Superiority? Am I missing something?

**King Pariah**

Nope, no interest in this nearly pointless money grab. I'll wait til it's rolled into 8th edition... If I am still playing by then.

**Frozocrone**

Vector Strike wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
It managed to make the worst flyer in the entire game worst. It made the Razor Shark a Strike Fighter so no Interceptor. Which means it now fires at BS 1 maybe 2 depending on how you rule the FSE formation that gives it +1 BS.

So the single worst flyer in the game is now even worse. -_- Hell no I'm never planning on touching aircraft even to add one to my army.

I disagree. The Sun Shark is quite worse than the Razorshark (and has been since 7th ed.). Tau is already the army with widest access to Skyfire, so we should use our GW aircraft in different roles. BS4 Razorshark is awesome vs ground targets, not even requiring much of markerlight support (specially in attack pattern with Ignores Cover); also it has Agility of 3, greater than Sun Shark's 2.

It's still inferior to other aircraft, but that's a problem with its statline; DftS only removed Skyfire from it.
I'd wait for IA14 and Remoras getting Skyfire (as Barracuda went OOP and we don't know if it'll ever come back)

Well well.

Seems like the Barrucuda AX-5-2 is back in business.

**Nevelon**

Frozocrone wrote:

Well well.

Seems like the Barrucuda AX-5-2 is back in business.

Oohhh, Barrucuda!
<sound of guitar screaming>

I aprove of anything that gets more talk about the ‘cuda. Mostly because the awesome music flashbacks.

But the model is also cool.

**Wayniac**

I don't plan to get it. However I also am only coming back to 40k, so these kinds of supplements are overwhelming right now. I don't think it adds anything worthwhile to the game though.

**A Watcher In The Dark**

None of my group will buy it. We have pretty much decided to wait for the new BRB.

However, we are already using the new/update datasheets and the new phase.

**Vector Strike**

Frozocrone wrote:

Well well.

Seems like the Barrucuda AX-5-2 is back in business.

And now my interest in this book has skyrocketed!

**DarkStarSabre**

Nevelon wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:

Well well.

Seems like the Barrucuda AX-5-2 is back in business.

Oohhh, Barrucuda!
<sound of guitar screaming>

I aprove of anything that gets more talk about the ‘cuda. Mostly because the awesome music flashbacks.

But the model is also cool.

The 'cuda was always a fantastic model ruleswise as well. When they...just stopped doing it it was a sad day. Nice to see it coming back with options.

**The_Lion**

So with all of this stuff going around my question is did the Dark Angels get any new flyers or formations?

**casvalremdeikun**

The_Lion wrote:
So with all of this stuff going around my question is did the Dark Angels get any new flyers or formations?

They got a new Formation called the Ravenwing Abductor Squadron. No idea what it does. It is two Nephilim and one Dark Talon. They did not get a new flyer.