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I only just found out how dark eldar got a massive nerf which is a shame as they were one of the few armies that required a lot of skill to win a game and weren't plain terrible just diffucult to play. My fiance wants to start playing and Im trying to find him an army that has a high difficulty with high reward if played right. He dosn't like anything OP (sorry Eldar, Tau and Necrons) and dosn't want anything terrible either (won't name any names)

So what armies require a lot of skill and have a high reward if played right? And please go into detail why because I need to figure out what to start him with

Elysian Drop Troops definitely qualify if you don't go overboard on the fliers.

You're looking at a primarily infantry-based Guard army with some special deployment shenanigans. If you get it right, you can cripple the enemy swiftly and then play the objectives. If you get it wrong, you can end up being hunted down and torn apart due to your lack of heavy equipment.

I won't suggest Sisters, even though they meet your criteria. The models required to build a good army are almost impossible to get now, and even I'm not sure it's worth the heartache to start them fresh.

I play Harlequins. They're like Dark Eldar who don't care about the jink nerf because they're choppy instead of shooty.

Pros: Extremely skill based, very much care about terrain, model placement, smart use of once-per-game powers, even structuring your army is a bit of a balancing act because they have no CAD to fall back on. The amount of points that just goes down the drain when you make a mistake is staggering, but if you play them well they can do an absolutely staggering amount of damage.

Cons: Without allies, they are a hell of an uphill battle. There are a few small allied detachments that add HUGE amounts to the Harlequins' competitiveness at higher points values, so much so that I wouldn't leave home without them. An example for size would be something like 1 minimum scatbike squad, 1 archon on bike with banshee mask and shard of anaris, 1 Hemlock wraithfighter - every one of those units brings a HUGE amount of value to the table for the clowns, but I know many people balk at the idea of allies. The problem is, without them you have a lot more hard counters than with them. Flyrants, for instance, are brutal against pure clowns, but if you have a hemlock you can reliably kill one and force the others to respond to the plane or it will just keep ripping them a new one each turn. Drop pods are nasty unless you have the autarch there to let you reliably null-deploy all your stuff and come on from reserves. etc etc.

Sounds interesting, what formation for harlequins are decent for someone starting out? Preferably best point value/RL cash value. Just looking for a starting point for my fiance to sink in a few 100$

On second thought holy hell they are pricy, are there any armies similar with a start collecting box set?

Skill required to play an army and win is inverse correlated to the power of the army.

We have had this discussion over and over again, and there are a lot of players who claim that armies like eldar or other fast moving elitist armies require the most skill to play right. While in reality these armies aren't harder to play at all. Just imagine the difference in skill needed to win an tournament with a strong list vs a weak list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing you might be looking for is an interesting army with lots of (momement) options. You might want to take a look at the new warzone fernis daemons rules there are some quite interesting ways to play them in there.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Skill required to play an army and win is inverse correlated to the power of the army.

We have had this discussion over and over again, and there are a lot of players who claim that armies like eldar or other fast moving elitist armies require the most skill to play right. While in reality these armies aren't harder to play at all. Just imagine the difference in skill needed to win an tournament with a strong list vs a weak list.

Agreed. Before I dropped 40k, I was an Ork player. While I wont argue I'm a super skillful player, I'm not a chump either. No matter if I made all the right calls, the army is always at a strict (and very distinct) mathmatical disadvantage to a great number of armies, specifically the sheer number of Marine players, the two Cron, one Tau and two Eldar players. Our one Nid and Daemon player (one player per army) only showed up for Apoc games.

I've won games, but I lost WAY more than I ever won, simply because no matter how many dice I throw, my odds are always against me. Every battle is an uphill one, and the outcome is usually quite clear within a few turns. Kill Point games are so far out of Ork favor. Maelstrom is a little better, but then it comes down to not skill, but pure luck of the draw to get objectives I can feasibly acquire.

Even as I became better, and newer people entered our scene, the new guys could often make me sweat not because they were super good players, but because my army just struggles to DO anything to them.

Warhammer 40k has so very little to do with skill. It may have at one point, but I've never played a game that I (the player) felt like I had very influence on the outcome until I played 40k. Choosing an army purposefully for the sole reason of handicapping yourself seems rather pointless.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Skill required to play an army and win is inverse correlated to the power of the army.

We have had this discussion over and over again, and there are a lot of players who claim that armies like eldar or other fast moving elitist armies require the most skill to play right. While in reality these armies aren't harder to play at all. Just imagine the difference in skill needed to win an tournament with a strong list vs a weak list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing you might be looking for is an interesting army with lots of (momement) options. You might want to take a look at the new warzone fernis daemons rules there are some quite interesting ways to play them in there.

Funny you should say that because I run the Flayertroupe and forgehost myself hahaha so I was kinda hoping there would be a differant army that are more skill based, I also run the new crimson slaughter stuff and again those are not too powerful compared to the big 4 (SM, Necron, Tau and Eldar) He also really likes shooty armies, so I was thinking maybe skittari but I know nothing about them and am not sure if they are any good?

Actually Harlequins are so expensive points-wise they turn out to be not bad points/dollars.

Especially if you do the "starweaver trick"- each starweaver comes with 3 crewmen, 2 of which are extremely easy to convert into a Shadowseer and Death Jester with bits you'll have from other kits.

That makes each starweaver kit 190 points base, each biker kit 100 points base, each Harlequin kit 110 points base, and the solitaire clampack 145 base. And this is on an army where at least 25-30 points of upgrades on stuff like troupes and ICs is very very common.

They're still outperformed by stuff like Grey Knights and Space Marines, but Dark Eldar, Orks, Daemons, anything with a horde element really is going to be vastly more expensive money-wise.

Of course, you could also spam Skiitari start collecting boxes. Those give some truly crazy value, and I'd recommend anyone looking into admech get at least 2.

Are admech similar to DE and Harlequins in the fact they are hard to play with nice rewards for skill?

Among commonly used competitive lists, I know that Admech War Convocation is considered the most difficult to play correctly.

The admech are a primarily shooting army, which does reduce the skill required to play them somewhat, but they have no access to transports, and mostly rely on one-time-use army wide buffs to bring their power up to other factions. They are a fairly elite force with a large number of highly specialized weaponry.

There is a "durpy ezmode" way to play them but I believe the new FAQ has gotten rid of it (only taking the cheapest short range skiitari infantry and loading them all into drop pods). I will say though, while I greatly enjoy playing them and find them challenging and interesting, my friend who is even more competitive than me actually abandoned them because he found them to be too "point and shoot".

They are skill based, but in a far less flashy way than harlequins. They require more long-term planning, as they are immobile and their weaponry is very picky about what it's effective against. Harlequins and Dark Eldar require a bit more tactical skill with each individual move and decision mattering.

Basically with admech you need to have your grand strategy sketched out. DE/Harlies are more flexible thanks to mobility but far less forgiving to tactical errors (Admech have a couple really solid defensive abilities for when you make a crucial mistake that can make that not matter). You're more likely to lose a game by points with admech, and more likely to get a huge chunk of your army killed with Harlequins.

i normally do pretty well with my vanilla orks, 3rd place in my last 3 tournaments

but having said this.. i pick my tournaments carefully. normally its way below 1850 (1250 beeing my fav) and you can generally bring only one CAD + ally

so no formations or atleast restricted formations or some balancing houserules.

the_scotsman wrote:
I play Harlequins.
Pros: Extremely skill based

Play MT. Harlequins are a piece of cake compared to that.

Daemons are an army that have a very wide range. I have seen people who play daemons for years complain that they are a weak codex, and on first glance, they are. You have a melee oriented army where nothing has assault grenades, ICs can only join specific units, and all the shooting is done in the psychic phase. It is also the only book that can actively work against you.

To many new players, Daemons is a horrible army, as everything only has a +5 armor save, and what can get a +3 armor save, it costs tons of points. You don't get power fists or any fancy wargear like that, and when you do, it is random, so you have to be good at rolling with the punches and thinking on your toes, or just good at playing with the kiddie toys.

What Daemons have to the skilled player is tons of synergy. Not one trick pony synergy like DE leadership shenanigans where entire armies (like daemons) just ignore them. Daemons manipulate their invulnerable saves through relics and powers. Though it is not the most reliable. They also have a good amount of terribly fast, and terribly hard hitting units.

Daemons also have arguably the most amount of book keeping out of any army. There is a lot to remember for them, (rewards, powers,and whatnot) which keeps newer players away, as it can be very daunting.

I see a lot of people are posting armies that are seen as bad, for the challenge of winning with an sub par army. I propose Chaos Daemons. They have placed in many national tournaments, however are not seen as a top tier cheese army. Their fancy detachment like the decurion stinks, and they don't have an awesome superheavy in their book either. Now they can take the renegade knight, so we will have to see what happens with that, however a daemon army in the wrong hands is a terrible army. A daemon army to a skilled player is a terrifying thing.

Here is a quick rundown of the 4 gods on the table.

Tzeentch units - Mostly people use pink horrors to summon more daemons. You have to know which daemons will best suit you. Just summoning more pink horrors over and over wont do squat, and a bloodthirster is fun, but isn't always the right answer. Fateweaver is a nice psychic toolbox, but you have to know how to use the powers you get, if you don't he is a complete waste of points. Screamers are a unit I still haven't really mastered, people keep telling me just to vector strike everything, but I want to get in CC. They are crazy fast and apparently kill stuff by flying over them.

Khorne - Bloodthirsters smash stuff, but you need to protect them. Flesh hounds, lots of them with a herald. No skill needed for this unit, run it up the field and get in CC. They will win most of the time.

Nurgle - Everything can throw a defensive grenade to blind stuff, do it. Drones are awesome, tons of attacks, fast, very durable. Plaguebearers can take out vehicles, and nurglings are a huge annoyance, they can also slaughter lesser infantry like guard due to massive attacks.

Slaanesh - Loads of rending, but watch out for charging for cover or your high initiative means nothing. Lash of torment on a greater daemon or daemon prince is nice!

Soul grinders are very useful as well. Learn what opponents to deep strike against, and deployment will be crucial, as daemons can be very easy to kill, however they can horribly annihilate the enemy. Know how many dice to use on which spells.

Check out the Infernal Tetrad Tactics thread if you want a little glimpse into more daemons stuff. Its tactica based on a formation that is just 4 models. Its insanely powerful, but requires a great deal of skill to play. Obviously one wrong move and you could throw the game.

 koooaei wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I play Harlequins.
Pros: Extremely skill based

Play MT. Harlequins are a piece of cake compared to that.

\

Agreed, scions are a big gamble army that requires you to be in the right place in the right time. Your army is basically super skilled guardsman with S3 Ap3 guns that air drop in with melta/plasma or ride in paper fast transports to hit hard and accurately, hopefully severing the head of whatever they are facing. If you fail in any way in your deployment or you scatter too much and fail to compensate you can really lose hard. But winning with scions is one of the most rewarding wins in the game, because you will win hard if you do.

If you're not opposed to *technically* adding something that isn't in the MT codex, try the Emperor's Spear aerial company.

You get:

-no scatter DS on 3 squads of scions
-flyer wing formations, wing leader upgrades from the new book
-+1 to all reserve rolls if your opponent didn't bring flyers

Technically it's a "cadian" formation but it's made up of only models MT has access to. I have a friend who runs MT with that and swears by it.

But it doesn't work with the new FAQ.

I don't play DEldar, but I got hit with the nerf as well. My Crimson Fists Bolter Scouts would pull drive-bys all the time in their Land Speeder Storms. Now they are not any better than my Rhinos!

Just make them cc scouts. They work great.

 koooaei wrote:
Just make them cc scouts. They work great.

Naw, not trading Bolters for Bolt Pistols on Crimson Fists. I will just adapt my strategy a little.

Personally I love playing guards for the sole reason that with 100+ bodies on the ground and a few armoured thingies all your decisions really feel like they matter. You need to chose what your enemy destroys and manouver around the battlefield in order to finish your objectives and counter whatever horrors your opponent has stacked against you. To me it feels like the deployment phase is the most important moment of the game.

For an unserious suggestion I'd say guards. I have a friend who went from something akin to 10% win rate with his guardsmen to something like 80% win rate when he switched to Tau. Me I do a solid 50% win rate with guards but it's always an upphil struggle and can shift at any point in the game.

For a serious suggestion I'd say chaos marines. MEQs are the standard in 40k so if you're gonna pull something that really requires skill and thought to make it work then there you go. Either that or Blood angels.

EDIT: Or better yet do a full inquisition list without grey knights or sisters. Now there's an go for broke army.

 koooaei wrote:
But it doesn't work with the new FAQ.

Care to explain why? If you want to be totally "RAW" and not just copy/paste the new flyer rules from the valk onto the vendetta, you can still run it with three valks.

the_scotsman wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But it doesn't work with the new FAQ.

Care to explain why? If you want to be totally "RAW" and not just copy/paste the new flyer rules from the valk onto the vendetta, you can still run it with three valks.

The new unofficial FAQ draft states that you cannot start in your Battle-Bros transports at the start of the game. This was intended to curb the drop pod taxi service but it does ruin some of the more fun and very fluffy things like sisters or MT using valks

MT can use Valks, they have them in their codex. They cannot use Vendettas.

Probably tyranids, they have a surprising amount of tactical flexibility but a somewhat steeper learning curve to figure it all out and make it work well for you. Even when you do they will generally be the underdog.

 n0t_u wrote:
Probably tyranids, they have a surprising amount of tactical flexibility but a somewhat steeper learning curve to figure it all out and make it work well for you. Even when you do they will generally be the underdog.

This. If you're not running 3-5 Flyrants, they're actually a fairly difficult/complex army.

Reavas wrote:
Sounds interesting, what formation for harlequins are decent for someone starting out? Preferably best point value/RL cash value. Just looking for a starting point for my fiance to sink in a few 100$

How 'few' 100$ are you looking at?

If not too few...then go Orks.

 curran12 wrote:
MT can use Valks, they have them in their codex. They cannot use Vendettas.

that raises an interesting question, the formation is for valks, and it dosent necessarily say its for AM only

 jreilly89 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Probably tyranids, they have a surprising amount of tactical flexibility but a somewhat steeper learning curve to figure it all out and make it work well for you. Even when you do they will generally be the underdog.

This. If you're not running 3-5 Flyrants, they're actually a fairly difficult/complex army.

Agreed. I never run more than 2 flyrants anymore, and oftentimes I don't run any just cause I'm tired of seeing them on the field. Playing nids can give you a ton of options (swarm, monster mash, flier spam, all CC, all shooting, psyker overload, balanced) to play with. But you will usually need some luck to pull off a win, due to how the 7th ed rules work. I really enjoy playing them, which is why I have 8k points to be able to run anything I want. Can anyone say 6 pyrovores in pods?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Skill required to play an army and win is inverse correlated to the power of the army.

We have had this discussion over and over again, and there are a lot of players who claim that armies like eldar or other fast moving elitist armies require the most skill to play right. While in reality these armies aren't harder to play at all. Just imagine the difference in skill needed to win an tournament with a strong list vs a weak list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing you might be looking for is an interesting army with lots of (momement) options. You might want to take a look at the new warzone fernis daemons rules there are some quite interesting ways to play them in there.

lets be fair, in 5th elder took a lot of skill to play.. but the 6th edition codex corrected that

The Dark Eldar can still win. I personally know a player who has played them for almost a decade, and does well with an MSU build. He wasn't too worried about the Jink change, he merely stated that atleast now he can simply reposition more boldly as he doesn't have to weigh the shooting after Jinking that much. The DE MSU still plays objectives really well.

Another hard to play but rewarding army I figure would be the War Convocation on foot. It's a powerful army by default that can take on pretty much anything, but as it's mostly brittle it punishes the player really hard if they make mistakes against other competitive lists. In drop pods it turns to an army that is way easier to play because of the easy guaranteed alpha, but if the FAQ is any indication the time of drop pod taxi services is at an end. However, the War Convocation can play competitively on foot as well, and in bigger games than 1500 2 Imperial Knights is a valid option. Such a list placed in the top 5 in a 30+ player tournament recently, I recall there weren't many balance adjusting nerfs in place either, meaning the competition was powerful.