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Warhanna wrote:
Back on to this, there appears to be a confusion in this excerpt from the FAQ: "no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically". We know that "weapons that do not roll to hit" roll is defined in the rulebook, and such weapons implicitly cannot fire snap shots. But the second part of that excerpt - "hits automatically", is confusing. This is because weapons that do not roll to hit (such as template, blast etc) do not hit automatically. But this new FAQ says that these witchfires do.

Does "hits automatically" therefore trump the snapshots rule?

How can "hits automatically" work when "cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot" is applied?

If you are trying to shoot an automatically hitting Weapon that was out of range, would it still hit? No, because it cannot shoot.

We are looking at this in the same vein, automatically hitting means nothing if you cannot proceed to the step in which Rolling To Hit happens.

Review the Shooting Phase steps and note that shooting takes place right before or as part of Rolling To Hit. Everything else before that point is setting up the shot. The very last things mentioned before Rolling To Hit is that if these qualifications are met, they can shoot.

There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

RAW? Both.

At BS0 you cannot perform shooting attacks at all.
While snapshooting you cannot perform shooting attacks that hit automatically.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, even if they hit automatically.

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

The next logical step is to present the question on the Facebook page, "if psychic shriek hits automatically, and shots that hit automatically can not be fired as snap shots, does that mean that a psycher on a bike who jinks and is thus forced to fire snap-shots is unable to cast psychic shriek?"

Additionally, "if psychic shriek is a shooting attack that hits automatically and a genestealer patriarch is BS 0, does this mean that the patriarch is unable to cast the only primaris power he has access to, since having a characteristic of 0 prevents you from performing actions that use that characteristic?"

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

 NightHowler wrote:
The next logical step is to present the question on the Facebook page, "if psychic shriek hits automatically, and shots that hit automatically can not be fired as snap shots, does that mean that a psycher on a bike who jinks and is thus forced to fire snap-shots is unable to cast psychic shriek?"

Additionally, "if psychic shriek is a shooting attack that hits automatically and a genestealer patriarch is BS 0, does this mean that the patriarch is unable to cast the only primaris power he has access to, since having a characteristic of 0 prevents you from performing actions that use that characteristic?"

Please do this for us!

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

No abiility whatsoever

You are claiming an ability in that area. Yet you have none.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

What do you think "no ability" means in this context then? That they can shoot but are not allowed to roll dice? It's not unclear. If you reference the shooting table what result with d6 makes you hit with a Ballistic Skill of 0?

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

A patriarch has no ability to shoot. A patriarch has a psychic ability that hits automatically but is considered a "psychic shooting attack."

So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

If you can't see how this needs an FAQ then you aren't really trying to communicate, you're just wanting others to agree with you.

I don't even play Tyranids and I think this should be cleared up.

It would be good to get it cleared up, because there is a good chance they INTEND for the brood lord to be able to use the power

The rules do not allow this currently

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It would be good to get it cleared up, because there is a good chance they INTEND for the brood lord to be able to use the power

The rules do not allow this currently

agree completely that it should be cleared up.

 NightHowler wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Naw wrote:

 culsandar wrote:
There is a lot of circular arguing and chaff in this thread. Just to reestablish;

Those in the no camp,
Are you claiming that a patriarch (or any BS0 model) can't shriek at all?
Or just can't shriek a swooping FMC?

As has been said, for a shooting attack to hit automatically you will have to be able to shoot. BS of 0 prevents you even trying to shoot. There is no way around that.

'BS 0 = no ability' is not well defined enough to say that BS 0 denies shooting a weapon that automatically hits. This actually needs an FAQ to determine one way or the other. It is clearly vague and open to interpretation.

It says literally that you have no ability whatsover in that area. How is this not well defined?

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

A patriarch has no ability to shoot. A patriarch has a psychic ability that hits automatically but is considered a "psychic shooting attack."

So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

However the 0 stat line doesn't tell you you can't roll to hit. it tells you that you lack the basic ability to perform a shooting attack, which is VERY different.

If you can't see how this needs an FAQ then you aren't really trying to communicate, you're just wanting others to agree with you.

I don't even play Tyranids and I think this should be cleared up.

The thing here is that your example is completely misleading.

Psychic Shooting Attacks and other Shooting Attacks are active abilities of a model. The Psychic one automatically hits.
If you lack the basic ability to perform a Shooting Attack - by being BS0 - you cannot use a Psychic Shooting attack either.

Launching an unguided bomb and launching a smart bomb (lets assume it has 100% accuracy = automatic hit) are active abilities of a plane. The Smart Bomb automatically hits.
But if you have no way to actually launch any kind of bomb, you also lack the ability to launch the smart bomb despite it always hitting it's mark.

Can you choose a target if you have BS=0?

 NightHowler wrote:

This is an easy question to answer. An infant has no ability to shoot guns. An explosion hits everything around it automatically. If an infant explodes, everything around it gets hit automatically even though it has no ability to shoot.

Besides being in extremely poor taste, an exploding baby still isn't shooting.

But this still doesn't associate a Corpse Explosion with a Shooting Attack as defined in the rules.

 NightHowler wrote:
So you have one rule telling you that you can't even roll to hit and another rule telling you that you don't need to roll to hit.

It has been asked, but where does BS state that it is only defined as how well you Roll To Hit?

Both WS and BS represent the skill in either Melee Attacks or Shooting Attacks. WS also is a skill in defending from Melee Attacks. What happens offensively with WS 0?

I'm not arguing that you can use psychic shriek with BS0. I'm arguing that, because it's confusing it should be addressed in the FAQ. To say it's clear RAW implies that someone who has never played 40k could pick up the books and know exactly what to do. This is not the case. If I gave my 40k books to your mom would she be able to answer whether or not a patriarch can use psychic shriek? I know most people's moms would not. Maybe you're mom is a lawyer and life-long 40k player with 400,000 points worth of models from every army, but even then, she may find this situation unclear. And if that's the case, it should be addressed in an FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because, wait for it, the question may be frequently asked.

The only thing Ballistic skill says, is that it gets easier to hit things with shooting attacks the better it is.

From this we can understand that it gets harder to hit with shooting attacks the lower it gets.

Zero level characteristics tells us 0 is no ability whatsoever....then goes on to define what this means for every stat EXCEPT ballistic skill.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, and with no profile now automatically hit the target, no roll is necessary.

There is no rule, at all, that says, one way or the other, that you cannot make a shooting attack if your ballistic skill is 0. We can only guess their intent.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The only thing Ballistic skill says, is that it gets easier to hit things with shooting attacks the better it is.

From this we can understand that it gets harder to hit with shooting attacks the lower it gets.

Zero level characteristics tells us 0 is no ability whatsoever....then goes on to define what this means for every stat EXCEPT ballistic skill.

Witchfires are shooting attacks, and with no profile now automatically hit the target, no roll is necessary.

There is no rule, at all, that says, one way or the other, that you cannot make a shooting attack if your ballistic skill is 0. We can only guess their intent.

WS is also described in the same manner. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

Any.ability.whatsoever.

@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

The weapon would hit automatically if you knew how to shoot with it, but as you have no ability in that area, you can't fire. Thus, it won't be able to cause automatic hits either.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

Hits Automatically <> Shoots Automatically. Shooting, hitting and wounding are separate things, as are glancing, penetrating, pinning and removing from play.
Ability in one does not grant ability in another.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
A model doesn't need a BS at all to hit with an power that hits automatically. The same way that a weapon that automatically wounds can have a 0 or - listed as its strength. Can a BS0 Model fire a weapon normally? no, however the wording of Automatic CLEARLY overrides this in the exact same way it does for damage.

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@nekooni

'any ability whatsoever' and 'hits automatically' contradict each other.

an FAQ is needed, otherwise rolloff if there is an argument in a game - I don't think this discussion can go any further

It's not a contradiction, see my previous post with the smart bomb example.

There is nothing to roll off. We can agree to houserule it, that's it. Doesn't make a difference on the table, but to this discussion.

AGAIN I restate, please ACTUALLY quote where it SAYS you can not shoot with a weapon when you are BS0? IT DOESN'T! There is no rule in the rule book that says anywhere that you cant use a weapon because you are BS 0. I don't even own this model, nor do I own nids, I have no vested interest in this. However some of the interpretation of RAW makes me really question the reading comprehension on here.

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

Yes, you automatically miss your attacks with WS0, the same way you automatically miss with BS0! That is absolutely the standard rule. HOWEVER the automatic hit, supersedes the automatic miss, because the specific always overrides the standard. That is the way rules are always written! Even GW writes their rules that way!

Hits Automatically <> Shoots Automatically. Shooting, hitting and wounding are separate things, as are glancing, penetrating, pinning and removing from play.
Ability in one does not grant ability in another.

Of course they are separate rules, im not sure what you are trying to prove in this way. The statement wasn't that these rules function the same, it was to show how again a specific rule always overrides the standard. For example, Armor bane/flesh bane don't wound or roll on the weapon damage chart, because the specific rule supersedes the standard of whatever the weapons strength is on its profile. Another would be Kharn, He has a WS7 (I think, don't have him in front of me) However he always hits on 2s and hits friendly models in his unit on 1s. As standard he would need to hit on whatever his WS vs the opposition models WS is. And can never hit friendly models however his rule specifically succeeds this. I only point these things out because clearly if you follow the very flawed logic that you are putting forward, that AGAIN is not supported by any rule in the game, then these two examples don't work and are superseded by the standard game rules. They don't "contradict" each other, one VERY clearly succeeds the other.

The weapon would hit automatically if you knew how to shoot with it, but as you have no ability in that area, you can't fire. Thus, it won't be able to cause automatic hits either.

Again you can technically still shoot with the weapon, you just cant hit. Which is where the term automatic overrules the standard rule.

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
AGAIN I restate, please ACTUALLY quote where it SAYS you can not shoot with a weapon when you are BS0?

"...no ability..."

if "no ability" doesn't mean "can't shoot," what does it mean? It has to mean SOMETHING. What is it?

 Dyslexican32 wrote:

WS is also described in the same manner as BS. And does having WS 0 cause you to automatically miss all of your Attacks?

Yes, you automatically miss your attacks with WS0, the same way you automatically miss with BS0! That is absolutely the standard rule. HOWEVER the automatic hit, supersedes the automatic miss, because the specific always overrides the standard. That is the way rules are always written! Even GW writes their rules that way!

Incorrect. You do not automatically miss with WS 0.

A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows.

WS 0 does not automatically miss, you cannot even Attack with it. BS 0 operates with the same description. No ability with WS means no Attacks. No ability with BS means no Attacks.

Not exactly rocket surgery.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Dyslexican32 wrote:

A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows.

WS 0 does not automatically miss, you cannot even Attack with it. BS 0 operates with the same description. No ability with WS means no Attacks. No ability with BS means no Attacks.

Not exactly rocket surgery.

exactly... you dont need to list every little thing and what exactly it does no matter how miniscule it is... thats why we have examples... and the WS example is pretty straight forward.