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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




I posted a thread a few weeks ago asking which would be a better choice to play vs Ultramarines and Eldar. I got a resounding reply to go with Necrons. Which is good because I love the models. But the other day my friends and future opponents lamented this choice saying that Necrons are bad now and I would get tabled and to pick Tau since it would provide better matchs. While I do think Tau are appealing I would like to use Necrons. Is this true? Are the Tau a better army at this point? Ive been looking at the codex for Necrons and the only weakness I can see is that a few of the formations are bad and Monoliths are pretty easy to pop for eldar with the 24 inch range on Necron weapons not helping either. But I dont see how it would be a blow out. I guess my question is are they just pushing me to Tau for some agenda or are they really going to be the better choice for my needs (which is playing vs Ultras and Eldar with some PuG play every now and again at the local store.). Thanks in advance to anyone who has read this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/09 20:50:51


 
   
Made in us
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In ITC format, the Tau are mid-tier at best. Using core rules, they are competitive with anything but Eldar. I don't know where they get the Necrons are bad. We aren't as strong as a lot of people like to say we are, but we are definitely in tier 2 alongside SM, Tau, CD, and SW (though SW will beat us like metal drums 9/10 times).

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On moon miranda.

Necrons are absolutely still top tier and have the tournament rankings to prove it. They are absurdly, brokenly strong, much lile Eldar and Space Marines. Where anyone would get the idea that theyre not one of the strongest armies in the game is beyond me. A Necron army getting tabled is a very rare sight indeed, I haven't seen it happen with the current book even once. You'd have to actively being intentionally playing bad for that to happen, maybe not even then.

I dont think my last tournament IG army would be capable of it even if my Necron opponent literally just skipped all their turns and let me shoot at them for 6 or 7 turns.

That said, theyre probably not due an update for a while.

Tau are typically lumped in as a "top 5" army, strong, but not quite Eldar or Necrons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/09 21:32:17


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Vaktathi just reminded me of one thing you need to be aware of if you are playing Necrons or Tau: There is an extreme bias against both armies among the player base. Get ready to get hit with a lot of venom.

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I dont think any of my statements were inaccurate.

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Ute nation

I'll bite, which tournaments? Because we didn't even have a top 20 placement at adepticon, 180 players 0 Necron in the top 20. If your not marines, chaos demons, or Eldar you're garbage tier. Necron might be considered top 4 but it's a big gap between 3 and 4, and at least tau had a winner at adepiticon.

Also unlike the other armies, we don't rely on cheap tricks, a necron army is on the board to brawl, no invisible death stars, no GMCs stomping their way across a BF, no free vehicles, no 2++ rerollables, no psychic shenanigans, no summons, no armies made of a single unit type, none of the plagues of current tournament life. Hell we don't even have any battle brothers, at least IG can borrow cheese from top codexs, we got chaos and tau, and neither of those really have anything to offer us.Be as salty as you like, but even you have to admit necrons are a completely separate breed from the current FOTM armies.

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The Necrons pretend to give me a chance before beating me by 20 VPs instead of tabling me. That kind of separate breed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/09 22:44:36


 
   
Made in us
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Little Rock, Arkansas

 Grimgold wrote:
I'll bite, which tournaments? Because we didn't even have a top 20 placement at adepticon, 180 players 0 Necron in the top 20. If your not marines, chaos demons, or Eldar you're garbage tier. Necron might be considered top 4 but it's a big gap between 3 and 4, and at least tau had a winner at adepiticon.

Also unlike the other armies, we don't rely on cheap tricks, a necron army is on the board to brawl, no invisible death stars, no GMCs stomping their way across a BF, no free vehicles, no 2++ rerollables, no psychic shenanigans, no summons, no armies made of a single unit type, none of the plagues of current tournament life. Hell we don't even have any battle brothers, at least IG can borrow cheese from top codexs, we got chaos and tau, and neither of those really have anything to offer us.Be as salty as you like, but even you have to admit necrons are a completely separate breed from the current FOTM armies.


Errr. LVO had 2 necrons in the top 8. And the only new thing out to change the meta since then is...wulfen and angels of death I think?

As for cheap tricks, you have a 1 turn invisibility relic, and can toss in res orbs to make a deathstar unkillable for several turns of the game. It's better than psychic stars because it can't be bent over by a culexus assassin.

In general you may not have a lot of active moves that are awesome like some armies, but necrons have passive awesomeness all over the place. Several of the units are very aggressively costed. They might not beat out a wraithknight for bargain-basement costing, but they aren't that far behind. Also pretty much the entire codex is competitive. I've seen virtually every unit appear in a high placing necron list except for like...C'tan and barges.

It says a lot that when the book came out, we had a newbie cron player who had played 5 games and was 0 for 5 suddenly roflstomping people left and right as soon as he picked up the new book. Necrons ARE an extremely powerful book, only consistently beaten by the most obnoxious marine min-max alliance and formation shenanigans, eldar, and a scant few other power builds run by good players.

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 Grimgold wrote:
I'll bite, which tournaments? Because we didn't even have a top 20 placement at adepticon, 180 players 0 Necron in the top 20. If your not marines, chaos demons, or Eldar you're garbage tier. Necron might be considered top 4 but it's a big gap between 3 and 4, and at least tau had a winner at adepiticon.
Are you looking at the qualifiers or finals? There's very definitely at least one Necron list in the finals. That said, Adepticon allowed un-neutered D weapons and Invisibility, so armies that were built around that were able to make far greater use of it than in other events, and as a result dominated results. When you look at ITC events, such as the LVO, Necrons place highly rather routinely.

Also unlike the other armies, we don't rely on cheap tricks, a necron army is on the board to brawl, no invisible death stars, no GMCs stomping their way across a BF, no free vehicles, no 2++ rerollables, no psychic shenanigans, no summons, no armies made of a single unit type, none of the plagues of current tournament life.
Hrm, one could argue RP, particularly enhanced RP between Decurion & Reclamation Legion bonuses, definitely falls under such a definition, and is the core of what makes the army as strong as it is. When you get something like a unit of Wraiths that can tank more S10 firepower than a Warhound Titan, or nearly 900 Lasgun shots, and where even a single basic Warrior requires 30 Lasgun or 15 bolter shots to put down, the net result isn't too different from things like invisibility or rerollable invuls and the like.

Hell we don't even have any battle brothers, at least IG can borrow cheese from top codexs
Not that it does them any good if you look at tournament results, and then you're not really playing IG at that point anymore.

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Virginia

I dunno, with the nerf to the Ghost Ark and Conclave of the Burning one, Necrons are slowly losing good options. Coupled with the fact that Super Heavies and GCs are becoming more and more popular, and Necrons don't have effective methods of dealing with them, Necrons are more-so top of the mid tier, not quite top tier anymore.

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Notice how everyone is pointing to tournament results that use a modified version of the rules. Again, OP, it depends on the format your local meta uses. If you are playing by vanilla RAW, your results will be different than if you use ITC or Nova rules.

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 EnTyme wrote:
Notice how everyone is pointing to tournament results that use a modified version of the rules. Again, OP, it depends on the format your local meta uses. If you are playing by vanilla RAW, your results will be different than if you use ITC or Nova rules.


GL running tournaments with vanilla rules, the game is utterly busted to frack.
   
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On moon miranda.

 EnTyme wrote:
Notice how everyone is pointing to tournament results that use a modified version of the rules. Again, OP, it depends on the format your local meta uses. If you are playing by vanilla RAW, your results will be different than if you use ITC or Nova rules.
To be fair, ITC is by far the most common tournament ruleset however (at least in the US), and what most players will use if they play in a tournament, and no event I know of olays straight RAW with no rules modifications at all. Thats said, yes, if D weapons and certain other things arent actively nerfed, results will differ and Necrons do become less powerful against armies utilizing such things.


 krodarklorr wrote:
I dunno, with the nerf to the Ghost Ark and Conclave of the Burning one, Necrons are slowly losing good options. Coupled with the fact that Super Heavies and GCs are becoming more and more popular, and Necrons don't have effective methods of dealing with them, Necrons are more-so top of the mid tier, not quite top tier anymore.
The Ghost Ark is still pretty damn good, just not quite as much. Superrheavies can be something of a problem for Necrons to a point, this is true, though I also think that the bigger they are thr more powerful Gauss becomes when normal AT weapons start having problems getting through.

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Virginia

 Vaktathi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I dunno, with the nerf to the Ghost Ark and Conclave of the Burning one, Necrons are slowly losing good options. Coupled with the fact that Super Heavies and GCs are becoming more and more popular, and Necrons don't have effective methods of dealing with them, Necrons are more-so top of the mid tier, not quite top tier anymore.
The Ghost Ark is still pretty damn good, just not quite as much. Superrheavies can be something of a problem for Necrons to a point, this is true, though I also think that the bigger they are thr more powerful Gauss becomes when normal AT weapons start having problems getting through.


Not quite. The gun boat option is out, as Jinking forces passengers to snap fire now. Lance cancels out Quantum shielding, so hello Open-topped Rhino. It's firepower just got much worse, and it's survivability (which was already deceptively bad) got nerfed. Now, it could be classified as an "okay" transport. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Aside from the passengers, how did its firepower get worse? I may have missed something there I admit.

I forgot about the Lance thing, thats a hit, but given how relatively rare that Lances are, its relatively minor. Only DE field them in any numbers or on any routine basis, CWE dont ever really bother, and outside of that access ia extremely rare and limited.

That said, 4 HP's, enhanced rear armor, and AV13 shields (even if they can be broken) with Jink was and still is insanely hardy for a dedicates transport, with only the Wave Serpent in contention really.

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The line "Necrons are bad" and "I would get tabled" are red flags to me that somebody is making stuff up. Necrons are probably the most resilient army in the game so getting tabled as Necrons is quite the feat. Necrons also have one of the most durable deathstars in the game and are not reliant on psychic power shenanigans to pull that off. Might not win every mission but getting blown off the table is the least of their concerns. The Necron getting started formation even lets you recycle units over and over again if they get destroyed (scarabs and warriors) which can be quite good at spawning tarpits and speed bumps against enemy death star units.

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Virginia

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from the passengers, how did its firepower get worse? I may have missed something there I admit.

I forgot about the Lance thing, thats a hit, but given how relatively rare that Lances are, its relatively minor. Only DE field them in any numbers or on any routine basis, CWE dont ever really bother, and outside of that access ia extremely rare and limited.

That said, 4 HP's, enhanced rear armor, and AV13 shields (even if they can be broken) with Jink was and still is insanely hardy for a dedicates transport, with only the Wave Serpent in contention really.


It mainly just adds insult to injury. Vehicles are already in a bad place, especially open-topped ones. With Melta, Grav, D-weapons, Stomps, ext. These few nerfs, which might seem minor, almost completely put the nail in the coffin. At this point, I would much rather run Night Scythes and drop my warriors off via that instead.

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The only race that jinks its transports more the Necrons is the Dark Eldar. Considering that Lance now cancels our Quantum Shielding, our Ghost Arks will be jinking even more now. I've actually started using my GAs more as repair barges than transports in recent games due to these changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, ITC is by far the most common tournament ruleset however (at least in the US), and what most players will use if they play in a tournament, and no event I know of olays straight RAW with no rules modifications at all. Thats said, yes, if D weapons and certain other things arent actively nerfed, results will differ and Necrons do become less powerful against armies utilizing such things.


That's why I wanted to know the format OP is going to be using. I never saw him mention tournament play, but everyone seemed to jump right to it. If his meta is tournament/competitive-focused then yes. ITC is the most likely format, and I would strongly consider Necrons over Tau in that situation. If it is a different format or non-tournament, Necrons and Tau are basically neck-and-neck, and I would probably give Tau the slight edge considering the sheer weight of fire they can pump out more or less negates Resurrection Protocols even in a Decurion where we have a 50/50 shot of saving. (Everyone remembers the time I saved 6/8 RPs. No one remembers the time is failed 6/8). In either case, I'd recommend Necrons, but I'm biased.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 18:35:01


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Well, thank you for the info all. That is to bad about the ghost ark, it is one of my favorite models and was looking forward to using it as a gunboat as well as a repair barge. That saddens me greatly. Does it still salvo 5/10 at independent targets? And what ruling changed that keeps passengers from firing from open top transports? Or is it the lance/quantum shielding change? Very disheartening. I wont lie, takes a bit a steam out of my sails for Necrons (sounds silly, but I liked the model that much). Ive also found out that my other favorite models kinda suck as well. That being the Tesseract and Ctan. Fortunatly I still like much of the range and Im guessing will replace the ghost arcs with a monolith for transport Also how exactly did the burning conclave get nerfed? Are Ctan 100% a bad idea now?

Now im not hyper competitive and I dont have to win games. But I do want to make them as close as possible. Im not so much worried about the Ultramarines but I am worried about the two wraithknights the eldar player likes to run. We will be using RAW but I do plan to play outside this group for tournaments and some PuGs at the local GW. Its mainly been the marine player who has been lamenting about Necrons but im starting to make the connection about his hatred of AP 3 and me most likely running a sizable destroyer cult,. Altho heavy 2 str5 ap 3 gauss on 12 models hardly seems something to be scared of? I dont know. But yes, I have no clue how I will handle two wraith knights other than investing into a doom bringer flight and praying.

Either way good info all. If anyone know how Ctan and the tesseract can be used semi- effectivly let me know (I dont care about the randomness.....much).
   
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On moon miranda.

 krodarklorr wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from the passengers, how did its firepower get worse? I may have missed something there I admit.

I forgot about the Lance thing, thats a hit, but given how relatively rare that Lances are, its relatively minor. Only DE field them in any numbers or on any routine basis, CWE dont ever really bother, and outside of that access ia extremely rare and limited.

That said, 4 HP's, enhanced rear armor, and AV13 shields (even if they can be broken) with Jink was and still is insanely hardy for a dedicates transport, with only the Wave Serpent in contention really.


It mainly just adds insult to injury. Vehicles are already in a bad place, especially open-topped ones. With Melta, Grav, D-weapons, Stomps, ext. These few nerfs, which might seem minor, almost completely put the nail in the coffin. At this point, I would much rather run Night Scythes and drop my warriors off via that instead.
while I dont disagree about the issues with vehicles, the Ark still remains much better off than most, and with the changes to grenades coupled with its 4HP and enhanced rear armor, it can largely ignore CC attacks from grenade carrying foes.




 EnTyme wrote:
The only race that jinks its transports more the Necrons is the Dark Eldar. Considering that Lance now cancels our Quantum Shielding, our Ghost Arks will be jinking even more now. I've actually started using my GAs more as repair barges than transports in recent games due to these changes.
How often are you facing Lances in meaningful numbers? Aside from DE, who Necrons dont have nuch trouble with in the first place, Lance weapons are pretty nonexistent. It's pretty much just a couple of psychic powers and Craftworld Eldar (who almost never run Lances). Outside of matches with Dark Eldar, it should be a practically nonexistent issue, and with DE it might give them a fighting chance against Necrons.

That said, I will say it was a very odd ruling that they just completely cancel out entirely instead of just capping AV at 12.




That's why I wanted to know the format OP is going to be using. I never saw him mention tournament play, but everyone seemed to jump right to it. If his meta is tournament/competitive-focused then yes. ITC is the most likely format, and I would strongly consider Necrons over Tau in that situation. If it is a different format or non-tournament, Necrons and Tau are basically neck-and-neck and I would probably give Tau the slight edge considering the sheer weight of fire they can pump out more or less negates Resurrection Protocols even in a Decurion where we have a 50/50 shot of saving. (Everyone remembers the time I saved 6/8 RPs. No one remembers the time is failed 6/8). In either case, I'd recommend Necrons, but I'm biased.
I'd still say in general Necrons are stronger,its pretty much just the D weapons and paychic shenanigans that punt them down, against anything else I'd put my money on the Necrons over Tau, but you raise a fair point about the local meta.

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Virginia

 Vaktathi wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from the passengers, how did its firepower get worse? I may have missed something there I admit.

I forgot about the Lance thing, thats a hit, but given how relatively rare that Lances are, its relatively minor. Only DE field them in any numbers or on any routine basis, CWE dont ever really bother, and outside of that access ia extremely rare and limited.

That said, 4 HP's, enhanced rear armor, and AV13 shields (even if they can be broken) with Jink was and still is insanely hardy for a dedicates transport, with only the Wave Serpent in contention really.


It mainly just adds insult to injury. Vehicles are already in a bad place, especially open-topped ones. With Melta, Grav, D-weapons, Stomps, ext. These few nerfs, which might seem minor, almost completely put the nail in the coffin. At this point, I would much rather run Night Scythes and drop my warriors off via that instead.
while I dont disagree about the issues with vehicles, the Ark still remains much better off than most, and with the changes to grenades coupled with its 4HP and enhanced rear armor, it can largely ignore CC attacks from grenade carrying foes.


Wait, what was the change to grenades?

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Only one model per unit can use a grenade in the assault phase, so instead of getting 10 krak grenades shoved up the tailpipe from a full squad of tac marines, you only have to deal with one.


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What do you mean enhanced rear armour?
   
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Table wrote:
Well, thank you for the info all. That is to bad about the ghost ark, it is one of my favorite models and was looking forward to using it as a gunboat as well as a repair barge. That saddens me greatly. Does it still salvo 5/10 at independent targets? And what ruling changed that keeps passengers from firing from open top transports? Or is it the lance/quantum shielding change? Very disheartening. I wont lie, takes a bit a steam out of my sails for Necrons (sounds silly, but I liked the model that much). Ive also found out that my other favorite models kinda suck as well. That being the Tesseract and Ctan. Fortunatly I still like much of the range and Im guessing will replace the ghost arcs with a monolith for transport Also how exactly did the burning conclave get nerfed? Are Ctan 100% a bad idea now?

Now im not hyper competitive and I dont have to win games. But I do want to make them as close as possible. Im not so much worried about the Ultramarines but I am worried about the two wraithknights the eldar player likes to run. We will be using RAW but I do plan to play outside this group for tournaments and some PuGs at the local GW. Its mainly been the marine player who has been lamenting about Necrons but im starting to make the connection about his hatred of AP 3 and me most likely running a sizable destroyer cult,. Altho heavy 2 str5 ap 3 gauss on 12 models hardly seems something to be scared of? I dont know. But yes, I have no clue how I will handle two wraith knights other than investing into a doom bringer flight and praying.

Either way good info all. If anyone know how Ctan and the tesseract can be used semi- effectivly let me know (I dont care about the randomness.....much).


C'tan and Tesseract Vaults don't "suck", they're just overcosted for what they are due to their powers being random. Never ran a Vault, but I absolutely LOVE my C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer(still need to post a picture of my conversion someday). C'tan shards are really fun to play with imho. They are also a good way to "tone the list down" when playing the weaker codices the make the game more even.

The jinking passengers clarification is what we are talking about on the Ghost Ark. Passengers on a transport that jinks also fire snap shots. This wasn't clear in the BRB, but the FAQ clarified it. It's actually how my group played it anyway, so it didn't change much for me. Not sure on the Conclave, I guess I never read that far into the FAQ.

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 cosmicsoybean wrote:
What do you mean enhanced rear armour?
having rear armor 11 vs most everything else having rear armor 10.

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That's not entirely special. I'm not saying the Ghost Ark is as bad off as others are implying, but it would be ignorant to say it didn't get significantly worse.

I would completely understand taking Night Scythes instead. Which sucks Croissant of Doom was boring to play.

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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

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 EnTyme wrote:
Table wrote:
Well, thank you for the info all. That is to bad about the ghost ark, it is one of my favorite models and was looking forward to using it as a gunboat as well as a repair barge. That saddens me greatly. Does it still salvo 5/10 at independent targets? And what ruling changed that keeps passengers from firing from open top transports? Or is it the lance/quantum shielding change? Very disheartening. I wont lie, takes a bit a steam out of my sails for Necrons (sounds silly, but I liked the model that much). Ive also found out that my other favorite models kinda suck as well. That being the Tesseract and Ctan. Fortunatly I still like much of the range and Im guessing will replace the ghost arcs with a monolith for transport Also how exactly did the burning conclave get nerfed? Are Ctan 100% a bad idea now?

Now im not hyper competitive and I dont have to win games. But I do want to make them as close as possible. Im not so much worried about the Ultramarines but I am worried about the two wraithknights the eldar player likes to run. We will be using RAW but I do plan to play outside this group for tournaments and some PuGs at the local GW. Its mainly been the marine player who has been lamenting about Necrons but im starting to make the connection about his hatred of AP 3 and me most likely running a sizable destroyer cult,. Altho heavy 2 str5 ap 3 gauss on 12 models hardly seems something to be scared of? I dont know. But yes, I have no clue how I will handle two wraith knights other than investing into a doom bringer flight and praying.

Either way good info all. If anyone know how Ctan and the tesseract can be used semi- effectivly let me know (I dont care about the randomness.....much).


C'tan and Tesseract Vaults don't "suck", they're just overcosted for what they are due to their powers being random. Never ran a Vault, but I absolutely LOVE my C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer(still need to post a picture of my conversion someday). C'tan shards are really fun to play with imho. They are also a good way to "tone the list down" when playing the weaker codices the make the game more even.

The jinking passengers clarification is what we are talking about on the Ghost Ark. Passengers on a transport that jinks also fire snap shots. This wasn't clear in the BRB, but the FAQ clarified it. It's actually how my group played it anyway, so it didn't change much for me. Not sure on the Conclave, I guess I never read that far into the FAQ.


Well thats excellent news on the Ctan. Besides the ghost arks, monoliths and wraiths they are my favorite models and quite a draw for me. The jink snap shots will be a pain, but it doesnt make the unit unusable as I see it. Just have to be smarter about deployment and baiting im guessing. I dont think the eldar player runs many if any lances in his list, Its chock full of scatter bikes and two wraith knights. Even though many say I should be worried about the scat bikes Im far more worried about those Wraith Knights. Esp since im sinking alot of points into a destroyer cult. Do you as a Necron player have any suggestions on how to deal with double knights?
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

If they're running double knights, what I've seen work well is to tie up one as soon as possible with something like Wraiths (should be possible by turn 2 in most instances, turn 1 if you went 2nd and they advanced the WK), where pretty much only stomping 6's are likely to kill anything, and focus fire the other WraithKnight down.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon





Or just them rolling 6's since strength D
   
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Virginia

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Or just them rolling 6's since strength D


This guy has it down.

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