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Experiment 626 wrote:

 russian69hitman wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 russian69hitman wrote:
Once more my local GW manager (who I've known 10 years) said this summer is a lot of AoS releases but "...they might eek out a surprise csm release in late June..."

If I could get a nickel every time a Chaos "rumor" gets hinted at, I'd probably be a multi-millionaire by now!

Yeah, he told me about AoS weeks before it happened (I was about to get into WHF, but he said wait, something BIG is going to happen), he told me about Renegade before it happened, he told me about the new website GW/FW/BL were going to come out with weeks before it was known, He told me about WH Quest a few weks ago before the sneak video on Sat.... Among a dozen other things that did happen..... Hope he was right this week with his hints and winks and subtle mentions (I am putting together a Nurgle army and he said he has to send several of his Chaos boxes back to HQ and he will get new in June, "so wait for the revamped stuff.").

It wasn't a knock on your source. Rather, just a humorous remark that we seem to get at least 3 Chaos rumors a week, hence the,

I just hope that we get options for once... New models without a new codex could be a disaster for us, as we're in desperate need of new toys of our own. Autocannons don't cut it against Gauss or Scatlasers, nor do Plasma guns compete anymore vs. Grav and D-scythes and the like.
Ideally, I feel a reasonable pistol/special/heavy weapon pool for us would be;
- Hand flamer, Plasma pistol.
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun, Kai gun (2-3 shot, S6, low ap - designed for killing MC's/slight effect vs. vehicles, mutation effect)
- Heavy flamer, Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, 'weird Chaosy name' cannon (a heavy 2 'blast' weapon w/pinning effect - not really amazing, but definitely could give the vibes of a corrupted plasma-based weapon!)

We'd still be well behind Loyalist scum and their OP grav cannons, but at least we'd finally have some options of our own to play around with.

I hear you. I wasn't offended. I understand these things need to be taken with a grain of salt (or vodka) sometimes. My friend, also the GW manager, has been almost spot on lately... Why'd he tell me to hold off on buying the "old" plague marines he'll be sending back to HQ next week, I can only guess. But his comment on waiting for the revamped models, with a wink, has me wondering.... (Hope he isn't hitting on me! )

What they need to do for CSM is retcon the whole "things broke down in the warp" stuff and basically make them similar to 30k Marines w/Daemons. Not entirely the same, for instance likely none of the specialized units the legions used to have, but something closer to that, as a reminder of the old glory of the Legiones Astartes, but warped and twisted. A corrupted mockery of it, and a reminder to the loyal Marines of ages past that should have been long forgotten. Chaos Space Marines are in effect a skeleton in the closet the Imperium would prefer remain dead and buried, and they need to reflect that. Nothing else can cause an entire world to be subject to Exterminatus, or have its population sent to concentration camps and/or sterilized just so they don't become exposed to corruption. Chaos is the great enemy, and its rules should reflect that.

If I can wax philosophical for a minute, Chaos Marines have always evoked a baroque, ancient feel. They should be like looking at a glimpse of the past and what was, but twisted and corrupted. A small vestige of the past glories of the Crusade, tempered with the near-mythical fall from grace of the Age of Darkness. To a Space Marine, they are a storied reminder of their own tragic past, similar but so different, vile and twisted instead of noble and pure, but a dark reflection of what each Space Marine COULD be. Chaos should evoke a lingering horror and dread, saying: We were once like you, and this is what we are now. You could be like this too.

So basically, Traitor Legions should have access to 30k style weaponry. Volkite, things like that. They already used the older style of bolters and weaponry. Take it further. Corrupted Legion battle tanks, rarely seen since the Heresy, a dark reflection of the glory they used to bring in His name. Keep Daemon Engines like the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend.

 russian69hitman wrote:

Spoiler:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 russian69hitman wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 russian69hitman wrote:
Once more my local GW manager (who I've known 10 years) said this summer is a lot of AoS releases but "...they might eek out a surprise csm release in late June..."

If I could get a nickel every time a Chaos "rumor" gets hinted at, I'd probably be a multi-millionaire by now!

Yeah, he told me about AoS weeks before it happened (I was about to get into WHF, but he said wait, something BIG is going to happen), he told me about Renegade before it happened, he told me about the new website GW/FW/BL were going to come out with weeks before it was known, He told me about WH Quest a few weks ago before the sneak video on Sat.... Among a dozen other things that did happen..... Hope he was right this week with his hints and winks and subtle mentions (I am putting together a Nurgle army and he said he has to send several of his Chaos boxes back to HQ and he will get new in June, "so wait for the revamped stuff.").

It wasn't a knock on your source. Rather, just a humorous remark that we seem to get at least 3 Chaos rumors a week, hence the,

I just hope that we get options for once... New models without a new codex could be a disaster for us, as we're in desperate need of new toys of our own. Autocannons don't cut it against Gauss or Scatlasers, nor do Plasma guns compete anymore vs. Grav and D-scythes and the like.
Ideally, I feel a reasonable pistol/special/heavy weapon pool for us would be;
- Hand flamer, Plasma pistol.
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun, Kai gun (2-3 shot, S6, low ap - designed for killing MC's/slight effect vs. vehicles, mutation effect)
- Heavy flamer, Heavy bolter, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, 'weird Chaosy name' cannon (a heavy 2 'blast' weapon w/pinning effect - not really amazing, but definitely could give the vibes of a corrupted plasma-based weapon!)

We'd still be well behind Loyalist scum and their OP grav cannons, but at least we'd finally have some options of our own to play around with.

I hear you. I wasn't offended. I understand these things need to be taken with a grain of salt (or vodka) sometimes. My friend, also the GW manager, has been almost spot on lately... Why'd he tell me to hold off on buying the "old" plague marines he'll be sending back to HQ next week, I can only guess. But his comment on waiting for the revamped models, with a wink, has me wondering.... (Hope he isn't hitting on me! )

Well, we do know from the usual reliable sources that plastic Thousand Sons are on tap for this year, along with a (mostly AoS focused) slew of mainly Tzeentchian stuff.

New plastic kits for our Cult units have only been 20+ years of empty promises & missed opportunities as it is, and those units would also be the perfect place to start trickling out some new kits with all new wargear options since they can simply stick a dataslate sheet into the box like they've been doing with other newer sets...

Imagine for a second, a Plagumarine kit that removes Flamers & Meltaguns as an option, but now comes with Chem cannons & Bileflamers alongside Plasma guns?!

Or how about a new Berserker kit that (for once) not only comes with enough Chainaxes for the entire squad, but also gives access to Hand flamers & Eviscerators alongside a Power fist, Power axe & Power maul options for the Champion?!

I really like Wayne's idea of giving chaos access to 30k weaponry. That would definitely give them a very unique feel, as well as push people to buy 30k models to add to their 40k collection.

Chaos Marines should be individually more powerful than regular Space Marines. They have sacrificed their loyalty to the emperor in exchange for service to the dark gods that grant them power. This was how it was back in 3.5 Therefore they should be among the strongest individual units ingame, with good, not just mediocre, special rules. Where has the MoK and the chainaxe that didnt allow saves better than 4+ gone, what about the slaaneshi combat drugs, the Mark of tzeentch lightning rounds, (nurgle still ok with toughness). Almost All these benefits have been nerfed to the ground with SM receiving tons of special buffs and even all the old, cool chaos rules (FNP being khorne only, and more) re-purposed for them or are just overpriced in points compared to armies like Necrons. I dont want to be forced to collect an army a certain way because that is the only way to play competitively, the points need major rebalancing and chaos marks need a buff.

RighteousnessInkhornate wrote:
Chaos Marines should be individually more powerful than regular Space Marines. They have sacrificed their loyalty to the emperor in exchange for service to the dark gods that grant them power. This was how it was back in 3.5 Therefore they should be among the strongest individual units ingame, with good, not just mediocre, special rules. Where has the MoK and the chainaxe that didnt allow saves better than 4+ gone, what about the slaaneshi combat drugs, the Mark of tzeentch lightning rounds, (nurgle still ok with toughness). Almost All these benefits have been nerfed to the ground with SM receiving tons of special buffs and even all the old, cool chaos rules (FNP being khorne only, and more) re-purposed for them or are just overpriced in points compared to armies like Necrons. I dont want to be forced to collect an army a certain way because that is the only way to play competitively, the points need major rebalancing and chaos marks need a buff.

I would actually like to see this, with more cultists and renegades and fewer marines and terminators. However, I'd like to see the marines and terminators be better than their loyalist counterparts.

For the record, there were no CSM tactical boxes on sale at Warhammer Fest today. Add that to the rumour pile, please...

For what it's worth the Canadian site has the CSM box back up :U

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For what it's worth the Canadian site has the CSM box back up :U

Yep, been up for a couple days now, but that could also mean that they ended up getting a surprise shipment and/or found an extra stash of them at the warehouse.

Either way, we do know that of all the main model lines, CSM's are pretty much a complete write off... Even Eldar don't have as much Finecrap left as we do, while we also have the least amount of both plastic & options of any main model line.
It's a pretty safe best that if GW isn't going to outright squat Chaos Marines, then the only option left is to 100% overhaul & re-boot the model line.

I count 22 plastic kits in the CSM range, and for Finecrap kits (not counting totally optional conversion packs like night lords, counting kits you need to play the unit for example plague marines) I count 21.

For Eldar, counting combi-kits as 2, I count 16 plastic units, and 26 finecrap units (again not counting duplicate sculpts of the same HQ choice and optional packs not required to play a unit)

I believe with the large 6th-Ed wave of plastic chaos got, Eldar wound up firmly in the position of having less plastic (and older plastic, guardians are still monopose...) and more mandatory finecrap than aaaaanyone else.

I'm not saying CSM aren't by rights the most important faction to update, or that they don't deserve new models for their bread and butter models (they do) but "our model line is the worst off out of all major factions" is one of your favorite complaints, and, at least in a non-subjective case, I thought you might want to know it is technically incorrect. If you just want to argue that their range is bad looking subjectively? I guess that's ok, but I'd say they're at least more interesting than the painfully cookie cutter Eldar range.

Unless you've been counting stuff like night lord upgrade shoulderpads as Finecast kits, which Eldar don't seem to have any subfaction options in their range at all...seems like something is probably better than nothing no?

the_scotsman wrote:
I count 22 plastic kits in the CSM range, and for Finecrap kits (not counting totally optional conversion packs like night lords, counting kits you need to play the unit for example plague marines) I count 21.

For Eldar, counting combi-kits as 2, I count 16 plastic units, and 26 finecrap units (again not counting duplicate sculpts of the same HQ choice and optional packs not required to play a unit)

I believe with the large 6th-Ed wave of plastic chaos got, Eldar wound up firmly in the position of having less plastic (and older plastic, guardians are still monopose...) and more mandatory finecrap than aaaaanyone else.

I'm not saying CSM aren't by rights the most important faction to update, or that they don't deserve new models for their bread and butter models (they do) but "our model line is the worst off out of all major factions" is one of your favorite complaints, and, at least in a non-subjective case, I thought you might want to know it is technically incorrect. If you just want to argue that their range is bad looking subjectively? I guess that's ok, but I'd say they're at least more interesting than the painfully cookie cutter Eldar range.

Unless you've been counting stuff like night lord upgrade shoulderpads as Finecast kits, which Eldar don't seem to have any subfaction options in their range at all...seems like something is probably better than nothing no?

The difference is though...the age of the kits. The oldest Eldar kits are the Avatar (2nd ed), Warp Spiders (2nd ed),Falcon (late 2nd ed, early 3rd ed), Guardians (3rd ed) and Swooping Hawks (3rd ed). You can argue that the Avatar is being treated pretty much the same as Special Characters, since it is unique and you can only have 1 of it in an army for most games.

Furthermore the Eldar have no gaps in their model range. You have kits for every unit, if not necessarily every upgrade.

CSM? Well...

Berserkers (3rd ed), CSM (3rd ed), Obliterators (3rd ed), Rhino (3rd ed), Land Raider (3rd ed). Our newer kits are all the units that nobody actually wanted (dinobots. Oh boy.)

Actually, let's be honest. It's easier to list CSM's NON-3rd ed units.

Chaos Terminators (4th ed.), Chaos Terminator Lord (4th ed), Chaos Raptors, Helbrutes, Dinobots, Vindicator. The character models. There. Done. Everything else is 3rd ed. In fact, everything else dates back to the 3.5 release or before then - Berserkers, CSM, Rhinos and Land Raiders all pre-date the 3.5 release. The vast majority of our range is trying desperately to reach Dark Eldar levels of outdated.

We also have gaps in our range - Chosen and Cultists are currently monopose starter set models. In addition it's very hard for us to get viable units as well - you want a Dark Reaper squad? Buy a box. You want extra? Buy a second box. Sure, you get an extra exarch....that's rough.

We want a Havoc squad with 1 of the weapon options (not the atrocious hodge podge of mixed weapons)? 4 boxes. Oh, but then we have FOUR COMPLETE HAVOC SQUADS. Oh boy.

(In all seriousness GW - what the feth?! Sell individual heavy weapons again or hurry the feth up and give us a plastic kit).

You can't even outfit a full marine squad with the CSM box- it only comes with 8 Bolters. The Termie kit? Great looking, but worse kit in the game. It is missing many of the options that they can take. And again- you can't even outfit a basic squad, with their basic barebones gear. There aren't enough bits in the box to do that. Not enough power weapons , not enough combi-Bolters. To say CSM boxes are some of the nicer ones is crazy.
They are old, outdated, and incomplete... Not just lack of all options for the unit in the box- we lack enough pieces to make a basis barebones squad in the box!!

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
You can't even outfit a full marine squad with the CSM box- it only comes with 8 Bolters. The Termie kit? Great looking, but worse kit in the game. It is missing many of the options that they can take. And again- you can't even outfit a basic squad, with their basic barebones gear. There aren't enough bits in the box to do that. Not enough power weapons , not enough combi-Bolters. To say CSM boxes are some of the nicer ones is crazy.
They are old, outdated, and incomplete... Not just lack of all options for the unit in the box- we lack enough pieces to make a basis barebones squad in the box!!

My 10 man tzeentch terminator unit was 5 metal terminators and 5 plastic ones from the newer kit merged together. It took a lot of effort to mash them together into a usable unit and after all that work out of the dozen games I've had rhe bravery to use them they have never made their points back.

It's a shame because the Chaos Terminators are my absolute favourite models (especially the guy with the tusks coming out of his helmet).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's a shame because the Chaos Terminators are my absolute favourite models (especially the guy with the tusks coming out of his helmet).

I'd love to see chaos termies revisited. heck, I'm crossing my fingers that GW eventually gives CSMs access to cataphracti termies.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's a shame because the Chaos Terminators are my absolute favourite models (especially the guy with the tusks coming out of his helmet).

Yep, looks wise, it's one of, if not the single best kit in the entire sad, sorry CSM range...

Functionally though? Probably the single worst plastic kit GW has ever produced by a country mile.

No mention that the autocanon not exists on the boxes xD


But no one cares, is mec

No autocanons, no all the optsions on the boxex, doesnt exist sorcerer on bike, doesnt exist chaos lord on bike, no exist chaos lord on daemonic mount, choosen and cultist monopose....

But hey, lets go and release more and more IoM miniatures!

If the CSM kit got updated I just might be tempted enough to start that Word Bearers army I've been contemplating for a few years now...

BrianDavion wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's a shame because the Chaos Terminators are my absolute favourite models (especially the guy with the tusks coming out of his helmet).

I'd love to see chaos termies revisited. heck, I'm crossing my fingers that GW eventually gives CSMs access to cataphracti termies.

This is why I got the betrayal at calth set and kit bashed with the standard chaos termie box. It took a bit of converting to get it to work but it looks FANTASTIC.

As a newbie that started with Chaos, it is really annoying not to have access to CSM Troops other than cultist since the Chaos Marine box is sold out in Germany for 2~ months..
Now i'm sitting here with my Noise Marine upgrades..

Even though rumors say it's not for a while, it makes me hopeful that Chaos will get a full overhaul of its dated and inconsistent model line. Even if the rules aren't everything we want they'll hopefully work.

The CSM codex is a jumbled mess, unrepresentative and lacking cohesive vision. Chaos Marines are a lot of different things but the Codex asserts to represent all by representing none. Without a portrayal of Legions, the book seems to want to portray Renegade loyalists who seemingly all found that secret armory in their fortress monastery labeled "in case of heresy", that's filled with daemon engines and combi-bolters. That is to say it doesn't make sense.

Well, my CSM is ALSO my 30k army so the missing CSM stuff doesnt affect me a lot
I play Alpha Legion, so it is still fluffy for them NOT having CSM looking Power Armour

Now i just need some SM Centurions (that the Alpha Legion "Aquired") to convert into Obliterators/Mutilators...

 aka_mythos wrote:
Even though rumors say it's not for a while, it makes me hopeful that Chaos will get a full overhaul of its dated and inconsistent model line. Even if the rules aren't everything we want they'll hopefully work.

The CSM codex is a jumbled mess, unrepresentative and lacking cohesive vision. Chaos Marines are a lot of different things but the Codex asserts to represent all by representing none. Without a portrayal of Legions, the book seems to want to portray Renegade loyalists who seemingly all found that secret armory in their fortress monastery labeled "in case of heresy", that's filled with daemon engines and combi-bolters. That is to say it doesn't make sense.

GW has sadly decided that they way to make CSM's unique, is to simply take Loyalist Marines, and then strip away every single innate special rule that allows elite generalists to function within the core rules.
Our Land Raider is the perfect example of why our army sucks so bad, as it simply cannot function at a basic level.
Then add to this sorry state, our severe lack of upgrades, and finish it off with army-wide over-costing...

Hopefully GW doesn't wait too long to release a new basic kit. (and for the love of the warp, please, please, please! Let it come with some new toys!)

I know I'm lucky enough to have about 40-50 or so of the 'current' basic marines sitting around in bitz boxes, so I can at least go ahead with building a Warzone Fenris themed force. But anyone who's wanting to start a Chaos warband? Those poor saps are just SOL.

 l0k1 wrote:
I really like Wayne's idea of giving chaos access to 30k weaponry. That would definitely give them a very unique feel, as well as push people to buy 30k models to add to their 40k collection.

My idea stems from a quote about the design intent of the 2nd edition (i.e. the first real CSM codex) codex, from White Dwarf 199, August 1996 (I think):

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines feel as if they had been exiled in the Eye of Terror ten millenia before the Imperium's "present day". Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise, ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legions' weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marine miniatures a dark, archaic feel which contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

That's mostly why I think that works. They feel different; still Space Marines, but "off" somehow which is how I imagine most Imperial citizens unlucky enough to encounter them would feel too: Okay, so it's a Space Marine, I've heard stories of them. That's some pretty scary armor, maybe it's just a different Chapter... AAAARRRGH *murdered*

Plus it gives them an identity again. Import some things from 30k, not everything of course, and then still have the daemon engines available. The end result is you have something that resembles the Legiones Astartes of old, but then you have the skulls, baroque armor and daemonic things that make it clear they are corrupted and evil. I mean, originally Chaos had the plasma guns that had Gets Hot (well, the 2e equivalent) to show that they were using a less refined and more unstable version of plasma guns that later were made better. Same why Chaos Terminators get an Autocannon; the Assault Cannon wasn't finalized. Same reason why Chaos Terminators use Combi-Bolters and not Storm Bolters. It was all to show that Chaos technology is 10,000 years old. So giving some small access to weapons from 30k that aren't available anymore in 40k make sense, since the Traitor Legions were equipped with those.

Instead, we basically have Chaos Warriors in Space. Too many horns and skulls, not enough "These are space marines from 10,000 years ago, twisted and corrupted by evil".

When they finally make a proper Chaos Codex again, I will jump right in and do my Iron Warriors project I wanted to do so many years ago, I may even dust off my old Black Legion (well, I'd have to buy them again) and lead my Warmaster to victory against the wretched slaves of the Corpse God. Until that day though...

The inclusion of heresy era technology only works as long as a CSM codex focuses almost entirely on the former Legionaries and not Renegade, former loyalist chapters.

Another problem is that GW seems reluctant to carry over too much of what FW has done, particularly without giving it to Loyalists. If you guys haven't looked at them the FW Blackshield rules seem more Renegade than the CSM codex.

The problem with Chaos legions is that they were too cool, too compelling. CSM are not supposed to be cool. They're supposed to be dastardly mustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon badguys for the heroic space marines to kill. The studio's take on CSM is less The First Heretic and more Battle for the Abyss.

You're not supposed to identify with the Saturday morning cartoon villian. That's why Saturday morning cartoon villians emphasize all kinds of despicable traits like cowardice, arrogance and most of all incompetence.

The other thing about Saturday morning cartoon villians is that they don't make any sense. How the hell does Cobra Commander convince all those people to give up their normal lives, dress up in blue uniforms and hang out in an armored compound in the middle of a swamp with Ivana Humpalot and the Man in the Iron Mask? Where do Crimson Slaughter get all their reaper autocannons? Who cares? Yo Joe!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The problem with Chaos legions is that they were too cool, too compelling. CSM are not supposed to be cool. They're supposed to be dastardly mustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon badguys for the heroic space marines to kill. The studio's take on CSM is less The First Heretic and more Battle for the Abyss.

You're not supposed to identify with the Saturday morning cartoon villian. That's why Saturday morning cartoon villians emphasize all kinds of despicable traits like cowardice, arrogance and most of all incompetence.

The other thing about Saturday morning cartoon villians is that they don't make any sense. How the hell does Cobra Commander convince all those people to give up their normal lives, dress up in blue uniforms and hang out in an armored compound in the middle of a swamp with Ivana Humpalot and the Man in the Iron Mask? Where do Crimson Slaughter get all their reaper autocannons? Who cares? Yo Joe!

Careful now, you'll hurt Little Timmy's feelings that he's not simply the world's greatest general, and the second coming of Napoleon.