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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 17:06:41
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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Silverthorne wrote:@smudge
So do you claim that one on one, against say, a CSM, that a bolter is just as good, or in fact, superior to a HSVG? Yes or No.
Do you claim that a weapon which fires a limited store of hand-made ammo is as tactically viable as a weapon that never needs to have it's ammo replenished? Yes or No
What is your evidence that the Bolter is better at killing elite troops than a HSVG? You state examples of bolters doing well, but none comparing the two directly. These examples likely do not exist, as the HSVG is not nearly as established a weapon in the lore as the Bolter. So we have to compare them on TT stats. And there the Bolter is wildly outclassed by the HSVG. While I can understand a marginal difference in power being reflective of just a poor transition from lore to table, this is a shellacking, as I am sure you know.
The facts are straightforward. On one hand, you have a lightweight support weapon, easily portable by a marine, that effortlessly penetrates the armor of CSM, a very common marine target, as well as the armor of Nid Warriors, Ard Boys, Aspect Warriors, Tau crisis and FW units, etc etc etc, never needs to be reloaded, and can fire at a rate comparable to miniguns,
On the other hand, you have an automatic .75 cal rocket launcher using a hybrid gyro-jet type ordnance. It feeds from a 20 to 30 round magazine, has a much lower rater of fire, dramatically worse penetrating qualities unless potentially user-lethal vengeance shells are chambered, an enormous logistical tail requiring more than 1 man-week of labor to produce a single, non-specialist bolt, and a radically worse rate of fire.
And you're trying to sell option 2 as the way to go. Aside from being a logistical nightmare, having worse suppressive qualities and virtually nill penetrative qualities against enemy elites, being entirely outclassed in rate of fire, and when chambered so as to match the HSVG's penetrating ability, routinely kills it's operator. That sounds a lot like an emotional decision and not a rational one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Victor-- LRRPs were (and still are) an unusual mission for SEALs. That's more Army territory. SEALs were (and still are) very much about the assault. Navy SPECOPS have always been tailored to direct action, unlike the ODAs. SEALs in Vietnam operated mainly in the South on missions of attrition-- these were set piece gunfights designed to bag huge numbers of VC and were straight up, top to bottom assaults. SEALs rarely did LRRP in Vietnam because that's not their specialty, and they didn't have anyone organizationally to pass off LRRP data to. Plus, they were almost entirely specced for counterinsurgency, and LRRP isn't a big player in that type of mission.
I'm sure that you are knowledgeable enough to be aware that statistically MGs stack far more bodies than rifles in a gunfight. Combined with the suppressive effect, and the way that it causes the enemy to think that they've run into a much larger force (common phenomenon in Vietnam when ST and Charlie met up) if you are capable of wielding a MG without sacrificing any mobility (and I don't think it is unreasonable at all to assume an 8 ft astartes could do so with a puny MT HSVG) then there isn't any good reason not to. Especially if you take ammo concerns out of the picture, which the HSVG does.
As for the shield argument-- it's false. If you can block 1/3 of all my shots, then the HSVG is still twice as good as a bolter, since it is putting out twice as many shots in the same range band. He made a worse case scenario for the HSVG and still outperforms the bolter in wounds inflicted by at least 2:1.
I'll concede, while not always doing LRRPs they still frequently did patrols of their AOs so they could find their targets and hit them, so it would be more appropriate to refer to them as Hunter Killer missions, which would support the 2 Stoners and 1 M60, but still those weapons would not be the main focus even with their boat's or helicopters. They'd use the guns on those craft when raiding with those craft until dismounted, at which point if applicable the crew of those vehicles would provide the bulk of the fire support. Leaving the SEALs still wanting to move and engage and setting up a good MG point doesnt always lend to that, a plus of the light weight Stoner to be sure, but they were not always the most reliable weapons do to their complex nature. Hunting and Killing (a key function of Vietnam Counter Insurgency in the areas the SEALs operated) still favors light weight, assassination missions which also were conducted by the SEALs again a light weight fast moving function. Additionally Navy SEALs can pass off Recon Data to someone, The Marines, as they are all part of the same over all command of the Department of the Navy and would operate in support of one another, though Marines do have their own Recon Elements for LRRP.
Im not saying they ( MGs) dont rack up more kills, Im saying that they are not always the primary focus of the Team, for Regulars yes, for Special Operators, not always. I don't believe that you will ever properly make a MG where you wont sacrifice maneuverability, you will always need spare barrels adding to the weight the Soldier Carries, the Pork Chop or Nutsack will also be cumbersome to work around compared to the magazine, and in the case of the HSVG the Cables would get themselves in the way. And again there is the easy of modularity provided, Grenade Launchers for Modern Rifles, and Combi attatchments for boltguns.
Plus in the case of the Boltgun vs HSVG, the special ammo types. Yes, as we've covered only on specific forces in the Marines. But rather than the amount of time it would take to re-equip and train Marines on the HSVG they could put that effort into making the SIA more widely available to Marines to help them further with their missions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 17:18:15
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Wing Commander
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@ smudge I don't see what that would prove as a hellgun does not equal a HSVG, even remotely. That's like comparing an autogun to an assault cannon. Points 1, 2 and 3 are valid, and I would agree with. Although as I mentioned earlier, from the perspective of a Chapter Master, I wouldn't care-- that's more a high-lord level of consideration. On the ground I would want my 1000 marines to have HSVG. If the HLoT is miffed by that, well okay, but from the perspective of the SM I know I would want the better weapon. 4-- Logistics are not really well handled, actually. They require an entire planet generally to support 1000 fighters. That's a lot of REMFs backing up your super soldiers. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I am saying that it could work better. Switching to HSVG frees up a lot of dudes to work on artificer armor, etc. 5-- Are you expecting me to give you a rounds per minute calculation with some kind of barrel life extrapolation? Because shockingly, that information doesn't exist. I know, crazy. For ROF the gun can only be evaluated on it's TT stats (double a bolter) and on a background snippet from the armory page that says it fires so quickly the individual shots blend together into a single, continous note, like a minigun. I don't know at what ROF the human ear can no longer distinguish individual reports, but it is somewhere between 900 RPM (which I have heard, and you can still detect different firings) and 3,500 RPM (which I have heard, and you cannot). I'm very confident that a bolter can't push over 900 RPM, if for no other reason than a smg that pushes 900 RPM with 20 round magazines is a terrible design. 6-- The HSVG does not get hot, or kill it's operation in any other form. Bolters, on the other hand, do kill their operators when they are modified to only be half as bad as HSVG. 7--Plot armor much? Are you saying that battle cannons can't punch through marine armor? Because that is what it sounds like. If we are taking plot armor into consideration, then it will be impossible to make any kind of comparison. Automatically Appended Next Post: @Victor As much as I like talking about Vietnam-- the comparison is getting pretty stretched. Stoners and M60s still need ammo, and still need replacement barrels. A HSVG doesn't need either. A SEAL will likely be as well conditioned as the top 1-5% of infantrymen, whereas a SM is an entirely different species, with radically enhanced strength, and endurance. A SM could wield a human special weapon effortlessly as seen by the way that in the case of heavy weapons, it takes at least 2 humans to operate the same system as 1 astartes. I find that there would be materially very little loss of mobility when a SM is using a system designed to be used by a regular human without impairing their mobility. Remember, as HSVG is considerably more portable than even a heavy stubber. I find it pretty unrealistic that the cabling of the weapon will be a major mobility impediment as they can just be loosely fitted to the torso and firing arm of the marine, or integrated into a 3 point harness. Currently SM once they reach the tactical squad have been trained in how to use Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Sniper Rifles, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, Flamethrowers, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, Heavy bolters, Chainswords, Eviscerators, Lascannons, Multimeltas, combat shotguns, meltabombs, grenades, and jump packs to list a few just off the top of my head. I don't think training them to use the HSVG is going to be the limiting factor. Also SEALs are only organizationally under the same umbrella as the USMC. Operationally they work under SOCOM, whereas all non-MARSOC Marines would be under the CoCom region commander. The only time I know of where SEALs were tasked with doing a major recon for the USMC during Vietnam was for Operation Starlite. And that was a hydrographic survey preparatory to an amphib assault, which is a ST specialty.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/10 17:37:33
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 17:50:04
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Silverthorne wrote:I don't see what that would prove as a hellgun does not equal a HSVG, even remotely. That's like comparing an autogun to an assault cannon.
Not quite that much, but I see your point.
Points 1, 2 and 3 are valid, and I would agree with. Although as I mentioned earlier, from the perspective of a Chapter Master, I wouldn't care-- that's more a high-lord level of consideration. On the ground I would want my 1000 marines to have HSVG. If the HLoT is miffed by that, well okay, but from the perspective of the SM I know I would want the better weapon
If the HLoT or Mechanicus don't want you to have that weapon, you don't get that weapon. If you defy them, you'll be branded a heretic, just like the Badab Wars. You wouldn't be able to acquire the weapons if you don't parlay with the Mechanicus or DM, who I doubt would fulfil that request.
4-- Logistics are not really well handled, actually. They require an entire planet generally to support 1000 fighters. That's a lot of REMFs backing up your super soldiers. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I am saying that it could work better. Switching to HSVG frees up a lot of dudes to work on artificer armor, etc.
Artificer armour is a labour of love - it usually requires older suits of armour which are better constructed, not remaking new sets.
Bolter rounds are far easier constructed, and again, the Marines can hold off on how many rounds they fire due to each round's strength and their own skill.
Seeing as Marines are not directly supplied by the DM, they are far more centralised than the AM and Tempestus. Compared to the TM, they are far more well organised logistically.
5-- Are you expecting me to give you a rounds per minute calculation with some kind of barrel life extrapolation? Because shockingly, that information doesn't exist. I know, crazy. For ROF the gun can only be evaluated on it's TT stats (double a bolter) and on a background snippet from the armory page that says it fires so quickly the individual shots blend together into a single, continous note, like a minigun. I don't know at what ROF the human ear can no longer distinguish individual reports, but it is somewhere between 900 RPM (which I have heard, and you can still detect different firings) and 3,500 RPM (which I have heard, and you cannot). I'm very confident that a bolter can't push over 900 RPM, if for no other reason than a smg that pushes 900 RPM with 20 round magazines is a terrible design.
So, the only real data is game stats (a flawed metric) and a small bit of fluff, compared to the myriads of bolter quotes of it piercing power armour?
Bolters are also noted (as per FFG) to be able to put down 4 rounds at full auto - assault cannons put down 10. So if we assume HSVG fall at 10 at max, I can use the damage output of the typical hellgun round and use that as our metric for HSVG.
That would put it at 1d10+4 E AP7 -/-/10 Volatile weapon, compared to the 2d10+5 X AP5 S/2/4 Tearing bolter.
Of course, you could put down a hell of a lot more shots, but you'd need to be stationary to make them count, whereas the marine doesn't. The bell curve of Marine shots would put out a lot of damage on unarmoured targets, and a reasonable amount on armoured ones. Considering everything, the only good perk of the HSVG here is the rate of fire, which is compounded by the lack of precision fire and weight.
This would support the HSVG as a squad support weapon, much like the grav gun which it could be integrated as, but not as the mainstay weapon.
6-- The HSVG does not get hot, or kill it's operation in any other form. Bolters, on the other hand, do kill their operators when they are modified to only be half as bad as HSVG.
My mistake - I saw hot-shot and assumed Get's Hot. I will be bearing that in mind when I finish off my Scions.
As for the Vengeance rounds point, it's valid, except that bolters are still capable of bringing down a traitor's armour, and squad special and heavy weapons would most likely go for these targets.
7--Plot armor much? Are you saying that battle cannons can't punch through marine armor? Because that is what it sounds like. If we are taking plot armor into consideration, then it will be impossible to make any kind of comparison.
This devolves into the main issue with 40k lore. Plot armour is so abundant (carving starships in two) but the TT mechanics make little sense (grots killing Terminators). It's so varied, and you are absolutely correct in that plot armour can bring anything. Lasguns blowing holes in concrete can be seen as plot armour in the same respect as my quote of marines walking through battle cannon fire.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't mind seeing HSVG as only limited to the Tempestus, who are only trained with them, or as squad special weapons for marines, like the Rotor Cannon. As a rifle though, the bolter should stay.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 17:56:27
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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Silverthorne wrote:@ smudge I don't see what that would prove as a hellgun does not equal a HSVG, even remotely. That's like comparing an autogun to an assault cannon.
Points 1, 2 and 3 are valid, and I would agree with. Although as I mentioned earlier, from the perspective of a Chapter Master, I wouldn't care-- that's more a high-lord level of consideration. On the ground I would want my 1000 marines to have HSVG. If the HLoT is miffed by that, well okay, but from the perspective of the SM I know I would want the better weapon.
4-- Logistics are not really well handled, actually. They require an entire planet generally to support 1000 fighters. That's a lot of REMFs backing up your super soldiers. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I am saying that it could work better. Switching to HSVG frees up a lot of dudes to work on artificer armor, etc.
5-- Are you expecting me to give you a rounds per minute calculation with some kind of barrel life extrapolation? Because shockingly, that information doesn't exist. I know, crazy. For ROF the gun can only be evaluated on it's TT stats (double a bolter) and on a background snippet from the armory page that says it fires so quickly the individual shots blend together into a single, continous note, like a minigun. I don't know at what ROF the human ear can no longer distinguish individual reports, but it is somewhere between 900 RPM (which I have heard, and you can still detect different firings) and 3,500 RPM (which I have heard, and you cannot). I'm very confident that a bolter can't push over 900 RPM, if for no other reason than a smg that pushes 900 RPM with 20 round magazines is a terrible design.
6-- The HSVG does not get hot, or kill it's operation in any other form. Bolters, on the other hand, do kill their operators when they are modified to only be half as bad as HSVG.
7--Plot armor much? Are you saying that battle cannons can't punch through marine armor? Because that is what it sounds like. If we are taking plot armor into consideration, then it will be impossible to make any kind of comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Victor
As much as I like talking about Vietnam-- the comparison is getting pretty stretched. Stoners and M60s still need ammo, and still need replacement barrels. A HSVG doesn't need either. A SEAL will likely be as well conditioned as the top 1-5% of infantrymen, whereas a SM is an entirely different species, with radically enhanced strength, and endurance. A SM could wield a human special weapon effortlessly as seen by the way that in the case of heavy weapons, it takes at least 2 humans to operate the same system as 1 astartes. I find that there would be materially very little loss of mobility when a SM is using a system designed to be used by a regular human without impairing their mobility. Remember, as HSVG is considerably more portable than even a heavy stubber. I find it pretty unrealistic that the cabling of the weapon will be a major mobility impediment as they can just be loosely fitted to the torso and firing arm of the marine, or integrated into a 3 point harness.
Currently SM once they reach the tactical squad have been trained in how to use
Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Sniper Rifles, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, Flamethrowers, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, Heavy bolters, Chainswords, Eviscerators, Lascannons, Multimeltas, combat shotguns, meltabombs, grenades, and jump packs
to list a few just off the top of my head. I don't think training them to use the HSVG is going to be the limiting factor.
Also SEALs are only organizationally under the same umbrella as the USMC. Operationally they work under SOCOM, whereas all non-MARSOC Marines would be under the CoCom region commander. The only time I know of where SEALs were tasked with doing a major recon for the USMC during Vietnam was for Operation Starlite. And that was a hydrographic survey preparatory to an amphib assault, which is a ST specialty.
If they could do that with the cabling, would they have not done that for the Las Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta and to an extent the Flex Belt of the Heavy Bolter? Im not gonna disagree that the HSVG is more portable than the Heavy Stubber, but it still doesnt look incredibly more portable for the men and women using it.
If the HSVG was added to the standard training of Marines, no it wouldn't be that difficult to do, but if you just did a whole sale change over, that could be an issue.
Well in the 60s USSOCOM and JSOC didn't exsist, but you have a point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 18:03:23
Subject: Re:Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Space Marines are shock assault infantry first and foremost. The HSVG is an unwieldy squad support weapon which would be unsuitable for the close quarters combat Astartes find themselves in. Plus, Bolters can fire a variety of ammunition including the deadly Hellfire rounds.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 18:35:20
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Smudge, the Deathwatch bolter is ridiculously overpowered, you're also using an outdated version, they cut them to 1d10+9 with an errata. And in every other FFG game, bolters are 1d10+5, even Black Crusade. So if you're going to claim to use the ''FFG'' bolter, use the one that shows up in four games out of fives, not the one where there's no point in taking any other weapon than a bolter because its ridiculously OP.
Furthermore, the Hotshot lasgun is 1d10+4, the Volley rifle will be at least 1d10+5, if not +6, with 7-8 AP, not sure if it should have any other firing modes than full auto.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/10 18:42:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 18:54:13
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Bobthehero wrote:Smudge, the Deathwatch bolter is ridiculously overpowered, you're also using an outdated version, they cut them to 1d10+9 with an errata. And in every other FFG game, bolters are 1d10+5, even Black Crusade. So if you're going to claim to use the '' FFG'' bolter, use the one that shows up in four games out of fives, not the one where there's no point in taking any other weapon than a bolter because its ridiculously OP.
Furthermore, the Hotshot lasgun is 1d10+4, the Volley rifle will be at least 1d10+5, if not +6, with 7-8 AP, not sure if it should have any other firing modes than full auto.
Wasn't aware of this errata, I'll bear that in mind.
Still, I don't see how the volley rifle shouldn't have the same AP - it only seems to be a higher RoF, and a marginally higher strength.
I stand by my point that HSVG should be a squad weapon, not as standard, given how the marines operate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:19:26
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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Untrue, not entirely untrue, but it is untrue. In Black Crusade there are two distinct versions of the Boltgun (among other weapons) where the Legion (Astartes) Boltgun is the 1d10+9 which is shared by the Errata'd Deathwatch Boltgun and then there is the "Mortal" Boltgun, which is the 1d10+5 of Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Only War.
Nice try though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:27:54
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Silverthorne wrote:Um, no. 8 S4 AP 3 shots is enough to kill an IG major. however, 4 St 4 AP 5 shots from your beloved boltgun won't reliably put him down, especially if he has upgraded to carapace. Great job, you played yourself. I said two shots. You can't say 'no, two shots won't kill him, look eight shots can easily kill him!' That makes no sense. 2 S4 AP3 shots cannot in any situation kill the Major.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 19:28:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:29:15
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Heroic Senior Officer
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It would, now, a Colonel, that's something else
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:31:02
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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OH, I forgot.
The 1d10+9 Boltgun is also in Dark Heresy, where it was added to the game for use by Grey Knight characters.
So the 1d10+9 Boltgun is in 3 out of 5 Games and the argument could be made that it is also in Rogue Trader as with the Killmarine Specialty from Rites of Battle, you may use an Astarte in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:40:09
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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The 3-wound Company Commander is typically a Major as I recall.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 19:41:29
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Right, I forgot they were called Company Commanders, been playing too much Scions lately.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 20:31:12
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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You can see why everyone wants to rank up in the Guard. Not only do you get to throw your weight around, you can also tank weapons fire like a boss.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 20:53:42
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Same for most factions, really.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 21:22:25
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Wing Commander
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Ashiraya wrote: Silverthorne wrote:Um, no. 8 S4 AP 3 shots is enough to kill an IG major. however, 4 St 4 AP 5 shots from your beloved boltgun won't reliably put him down, especially if he has upgraded to carapace. Great job, you played yourself. I said two shots. You can't say 'no, two shots won't kill him, look eight shots can easily kill him!' That makes no sense. 2 S4 AP3 shots cannot in any situation kill the Major. Actually, you said 'shoot two times'. Since the HSVG activates for 4 shots in a shooting phase at point blank range I took that to meant two rounds of shooting with it's given profile. Not to arbitrarily cut the number of shots in half for no sensible reason. Hey, if you reduce the bolters strength to 1, and add 'get's hot' it would be the worst gun in the game! Making up a totally arbitrary set of conditions that limit a gun's profile doesn't make for accurate comparisons. I can do that too. If you raise the number of shots a HSVG has to 10^80 and give the bearer the sniper order, it can kill any unit in the game, 100% of the time! WOWZERS! That is just as 'useful' of an observation as your little brain secretion. The funny thing was even with your nonsensical limitations, it still does better than the bolter. So.... great job. Seriously what did you intend on proving? "I arbitrarily limited the ROF of a gun profile to less than the number of wounds a random model has, and in so doing, observed that a gun with the imaginary new profile would't be able to finish the random model off!" I'm guessing I'm not talking to a future field's medal winner.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 21:24:17
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 21:31:01
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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I didn't read everything, but I think you focus WAY TOO MUCH on the "marine vs marine" fight.
Ok, volley gun is BETTER against heavy armored armor, but boltgun are better against orks etc...
Example:
1 bolt hit an ork, say his arm.
The bolt explodes and tears it appart .
If a volley gun hit the same ork in the same arm, it won't cut his arm.
You can pierce an armor with it, but not EXPLODE and kill a heavy target like an ork or a tyranid warrior easily with it.
At least, this is what I think.
And don't forget: Space Marines miss very, very rarely, so even if they have a limited count of bolts, it isn't a problem for them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 21:35:44
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Wing Commander
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Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Points 1, 2 and 3 are valid, and I would agree with. Although as I mentioned earlier, from the perspective of a Chapter Master, I wouldn't care-- that's more a high-lord level of consideration. On the ground I would want my 1000 marines to have HSVG. If the HLoT is miffed by that, well okay, but from the perspective of the SM I know I would want the better weapon
If the HLoT or Mechanicus don't want you to have that weapon, you don't get that weapon. If you defy them, you'll be branded a heretic, just like the Badab Wars. You wouldn't be able to acquire the weapons if you don't parlay with the Mechanicus or DM, who I doubt would fulfil that request.
The Dark Angels (jetbike, Nephilim, Plasma dobob on the LS Vengeance), and Blood Angels (overcharged engines, Storm Raven) would disagree, as they have both routinely flouted Mechanicus demands to rellinquish or stop the use of certain weapons and told the technophiliacs to get stuffed, without serious consequences. Even if Mars ices you out, there are lots of other Forge Worlds in the galaxy that can broker a deal in exchange for pledges of loyalty from the SM chapter. As I mentioned, the DA and BA have gotten away with rather flagrant breeches of using proscribed tech, so I doubt that protests about the HSVG from the AdMech would amount to much, honestly. It would take something from the HLoT, and even then, SM chapters aren't obligated to follow instructions from the HLoT. It feel it would be pretty difficult to get other SM chapters or Inquisitors onboard to purge a chapter because they switched to a different, but still sanctioned, primary weapon. And without them onboard, it's unlikely the HLoT would prosecute.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 21:40:23
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Heroic Senior Officer
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godardc wrote:I didn't read everything, but I think you focus WAY TOO MUCH on the "marine vs marine" fight.
Ok, volley gun is BETTER against heavy armored armor, but boltgun are better against orks etc...
Example:
1 bolt hit an ork, say his arm.
The bolt explodes and tears it appart .
If a volley gun hit the same ork in the same arm, it won't cut his arm.
You can pierce an armor with it, but not EXPLODE and kill a heavy target like an ork or a tyranid warrior easily with it.
At least, this is what I think.
And don't forget: Space Marines miss very, very rarely, so even if they have a limited count of bolts, it isn't a problem for them.
A pointblank hotshot lasbolt shot decapitated a CSM, helmet include, I doubt a volley of the same shots would not cut an Ork arm off, regular lasgun shots can also blow limbs away from humans, no reasons for a more powerful version of that weapon to be able to blow limbs of Orks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 21:42:16
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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Maybe at longer range it isn't as powerful ?
Otherwise, just forget what I wrote^^
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:12:41
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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That two rounds from your superdeadly space gun can't possibly in any way kill a naked human just because he's a CO. I hope that what that means is obvious - ie, game mechanics =/= lore. Marines probably use bolters because they are not that much worse in the lore. In fact, they may well be better. It is understandable why they are not in the game. Imagine how meaningless it would be to have a special weapon worse than S4 Ap5 rapid fire. Why are you so hostile?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/10 22:15:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:13:39
Subject: Re:Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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Simple. Back when Games Workshop came out with the basic profile of a bolter in Rogue Trader (which was used by both Space Marines AND Orks) they didn't have to make it the new hotness to sell a new army armed with them. And thatnbasically has held for every edition since, as Space Marines sell themselves.
Fluffwise, bolters are shock and awe weapons scaled to be wielded by 8ft tall supersoldiers., not known for their efficiency.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:30:05
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Wing Commander
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Ashiraya wrote:
That two rounds from your superdeadly space gun can't possibly in any way kill a naked human just because he's a CO.
I hope that what that means is obvious - ie, game mechanics =/= lore.
Marines probably use bolters because they are not that much worse in the lore. In fact, they may well be better. It is understandable why they are not in the game. Imagine how meaningless it would be to have a special weapon worse than S4 Ap5 rapid fire.
Why are you so hostile?
Actually, a standard burst from a HSVG can kill a company commander. (Who would be a captain, by the way, not a major). 4 S4 AP3 shots are sufficient to blot a T3 3W model. So yeah-- seems like the game mechanics and lore are matching up pretty well to me.
Why are you so delicate?
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:36:44
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Silverthorne wrote: Ashiraya wrote:
That two rounds from your superdeadly space gun can't possibly in any way kill a naked human just because he's a CO.
I hope that what that means is obvious - ie, game mechanics =/= lore.
Marines probably use bolters because they are not that much worse in the lore. In fact, they may well be better. It is understandable why they are not in the game. Imagine how meaningless it would be to have a special weapon worse than S4 Ap5 rapid fire.
Why are you so hostile?
Actually, a standard burst from a HSVG can kill a company commander. (Who would be a captain, by the way, not a major). 4 S4 AP3 shots are sufficient to blot a T3 3W model. So yeah-- seems like the game mechanics and lore are matching up pretty well to me.
Why are you so delicate?
Are you intentionally missing the point she's trying to make to fit with your narrative? Two shots point blank from your super gun can't kill a regular guard officer despite him just being a squishy human because it only takes two out of his three wounds. It would take three. It does not take three shots point blank to kill a regular human with a bolt gun in the lore. So, therefore, either lore=/=gameplay or the Volleygun is inferior.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:51:49
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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Does penetration really matter when your organs liquidized from the explosive force of taking a micro-missile to the chest?
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 22:53:45
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Tactical_Spam wrote:Does penetration really matter when your organs liquidized from the explosive force of taking a micro-missile to the chest?
Hydro shock. Concussion etc Even if armour delays it, shockwave can kill just as dead. Principle behind several medieval weapons
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 22:54:15
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 23:14:39
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Wing Commander
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TheCustomLime wrote: Silverthorne wrote: Ashiraya wrote: That two rounds from your superdeadly space gun can't possibly in any way kill a naked human just because he's a CO. I hope that what that means is obvious - ie, game mechanics =/= lore. Marines probably use bolters because they are not that much worse in the lore. In fact, they may well be better. It is understandable why they are not in the game. Imagine how meaningless it would be to have a special weapon worse than S4 Ap5 rapid fire. Why are you so hostile? Actually, a standard burst from a HSVG can kill a company commander. (Who would be a captain, by the way, not a major). 4 S4 AP3 shots are sufficient to blot a T3 3W model. So yeah-- seems like the game mechanics and lore are matching up pretty well to me. Why are you so delicate? Are you intentionally missing the point she's trying to make to fit with your narrative? Two shots point blank from your super gun can't kill a regular guard officer despite him just being a squishy human because it only takes two out of his three wounds. It would take three. It does not take three shots point blank to kill a regular human with a bolt gun in the lore. So, therefore, either lore=/=gameplay or the Volleygun is inferior. Do you actually think the HSVG fires 'four shots'? Or a bolter fires two? The profiles indicate the damage that can be done in a single burst, they don't actually mean the boltgun spits out two bolts and the HSVG 4 freems. So messing with the profile doesn't mean that the target only gets shot by 2 las beams, it means nothing at all. A single burst from the HSVG can kill the second toughest, and most important figure in an AM force. A single burst from a boltgun can't. And you are both trying to spin that as somehow invalidating the superiority of the HSVG over the bolter. You're comparing apples to oranges here-- comparing a TT stat with Lore narrative. The Salvo 4 means that it is a very quick firing weapon, not that it fires exactly 4 shots. Obviously the burst of fire represented by the HSVG Salvo-4 profile doesn't mean the Tempestus dude carefully counts 1 2 3 4 and stops pulling the trigger. Same with Rapid Fire 2 on a bolter. So your comparison is totally dead and the water, and honestly, must seem pretty shaky even to you. Lore-- HSVG can shred a human, even a HSO, instantly. TT-- HSVG shreds a human, even a HSO, in a single burst of fire in 1 shooting phase. So in both the lore and the tabletop, a single burst of fire from the HSVG kills a HSO. You have had to artificially change the stats to try to hide that. You're trying to cross too many wires here in your comparison to obfuscate how weak your narrative is. You reduce the number of shots the HSVG gets, just to ensure that mechanically it can't top 3 wounds (when it would always get 4 shots at that range....) then say that it is inferior to a boltgun firing three times... in the fluff. You're just literally making things up now to patch up your badly fractured narrative. If you want to say bolters are OmG Wonderful than go ahead, there are plenty of ridiculous plot armored SM that have one-shotted Warbosses with their bolt pistols for you to say that. As far as I'm aware, there are only a few pieces of fluff where a guy with a HSVG goes up against a dude with a bolter that allow for a direct comparison. Want to guess who wins?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/10 23:21:18
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 23:17:24
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Ghastly Grave Guard
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Because Hotshot Volley Guns are special weapons and Space Marines can't have an entire squad of Troops equipped with special weapons. We aren't fething Eldar.
Honestly though, Bolters have remained the same for nearly 30 years whereas the Hotshot Volley Gun was influenced by years of power creep. That's why.
Space Marine bikes are just chunky motorcycles but they make the Marine tougher and faster. They aren't that difficult to produce, so why don't all Marines have them by default? Because it wouldn't benefit the balance of the game.
There are only a million Space Marines in existence. There *HAVE* to be more Guard heavy weapons teams than that, so why don't all Marines carry a lascannon or autocannon? Clearly the capabilities are there to produce that many. Because basic infantry should have a basic infantry weapon, not a tank killer.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 23:18:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 23:18:34
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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Wouldn't a bolters internal workings be insanely simpler than a HSVG, id think that should be considered. High reliability and general ruggedness are very important.
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3500pts 1500pts 2500pts 4500pts 3500pts 2000pts 2000pts plus several small AOS armies |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 23:24:30
Subject: Volley Guns Vs. Bolters
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Zognob Gorgoff wrote:Wouldn't a bolters internal workings be insanely simpler than a HSVG, id think that should be considered. High reliability and general ruggedness are very important.
Maybe maybe not
i think a lot of them have additional built in equipment that increase accuracy or stability, and i think some have smart targeting or the like that makes the bolter shell able to hit things better or what not.
IIRC at least
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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