Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just want to check that I've understood this correctly from the new FAQ:

Lets assume that the new FAQ stands and single models like monstrous creatures or walkers CAN declare a multi-assault regardless of the rest of the multi-assault rules saying that you can't.

FAQ wrote:Q: If you make a Disordered Charge against a vehicle and a non-vehicle unit, which close combat rules count for things like Sweeping Advances, Pile-ins or Consolidation moves?
A: Those that apply to the primary target of the charge.

BRB wrote:A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).

BRB wrote:If the vehicle loses the combat or is destroyed, nothing happens. There are no Sweeping Advances, no Pile Ins and no Consolidation moves. The vehicle and the enemy remain where they are and are free to simply move away in future turns.
If the vehicle wins the combat, the enemy must make a Morale check as normal, and Fall Back if they fail, though the vehicle cannot Consolidate or make a Sweeping Advance.

I charge a D-Thirster in to combat with a squad of Firewarriors and a Devilfish transport that was nearby.
If I declare the Tactical squad as the primary target, I can charge them and the Devilfish; allocate all of my attacks to the Transport and annihilate it, causing ~5 penetrating hits; and then sweep the poor FireWarriors in assault results as I scored 10 combat res (and he has I9 vs the firewarrior's I2)
OTOH If I declare the transport as the primary target, I wipe it out, the firewarriors lose combat and automatically fall back, but the D-thirster cannot chase them.

Does that sound correct?

Theoretically it looks good, but would be very hard to pull off. The FAQ tells us that this is possible, but doesn't remove any restrictions from multi assaulting. There's 2 main things that make it very hard to actually pull off.

1 - you need to charge the closest model in the primary target first, in a straight line. So in order for the multi assault to work your secondary target would have to be between you and your primary, and close enough to base them both when moving in a straight line.

2 - you need to base every model in the primary target before you're allowed to engage the secondary. So you would either need to already have a unit charged into the target unit, or the primary target would have to be only a single model unit.

So the FAQ opens the possibility of single model multi assaults, but I don't think they're going to be something that happens often, and most of the time the primary target will be a vehicle or MC.

Your models must stay 1" away from all enemy models that aren't in the primary target unit until certain conditions are met.
Once your single model makes base contact with the enemy, he cannot move anymore. So he makes base contact with the primary, staying 1" away from the secondary, and then can't move. Since he's not in base contact with the secondary target, he can't allocate attacks to it and they're not in the combat.

Can you rotate a model once in B2B after a charge? I mean, assuming you have the additional inches on your charge range for your assumed oval bases movement.

Someone on B&C explained it that one unit would have to be Engaged with a friendly unit AND allow that one model to be in Engagement range of that friendly unit as well as its initial Charge unit.

Like:
T
.A..BY

Where T and Y are Charging Targets and A and B your units with one already Engaged in Combat.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Your models must stay 1" away from all enemy models that aren't in the primary target unit until certain conditions are met.
Once your single model makes base contact with the enemy, he cannot move anymore. So he makes base contact with the primary, staying 1" away from the secondary, and then can't move. Since he's not in base contact with the secondary target, he can't allocate attacks to it and they're not in the combat.

The 1" rule on charging hasn't existed since 4th.

However, declaring and completing are different things. It is impossible, following the non FAQd rules, for a single model to complete a multi charge.

grazingshot wrote:
2 - you need to base every model in the primary target before you're allowed to engage the secondary. .

This is incorrect.

The rules forbid a model from moving into contact with the secondary unless he is unable to move into contact with an unengaged model from the primary. That doesn't require every model in the primary to be engaged, just for any unengaged models in the unit to be out of reach.


However, that requirement is exactly what makes the FAQ response problematic... The only way that you could actually charge as per the example in the OP is if all models in the primary target that are within the daemon's charge range are already engaged with something else, and even then only if both units were positioned in such a way that moving directly onto the secondary target by the most direct route will also bring him into contact with a model from the primary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Your models must stay 1" away from all enemy models that aren't in the primary target unit until certain conditions are met.
Once your single model makes base contact with the enemy, he cannot move anymore. So he makes base contact with the primary, staying 1" away from the secondary, and then can't move. Since he's not in base contact with the secondary target, he can't allocate attacks to it and they're not in the combat.

The 1" rule on charging hasn't existed since 4th.

Really? It is to a point, maybe not in distance, but the policy still does exist.

Moving Charging Models
Charging units must attempt to move into base contact with as many opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back or trying to avoid terrain! All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move – up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier – following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models. Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging (a unit can charge more than one enemy unit by declaring a multiple charge – this is described in the Multiple Combats section).

From Multiple Combats > Move Inititial Charger

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models. That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target. Remember that the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this kind of charge.

Don't forget that if the initial charging model cannot reach base to base to its Primary Target, it fails. If you cannot reach base to base with the unit, it cannot be Engaged in a Fight.

So, in order for a single model unit to do a Multiple Charge, one of the targets must be already Engaged with a friendly unit in order to be close enough to be Engaged against that unit as well.

Failing to Charge a Secondary Target is not considered a Failed Charge, though.

So as stated, the 1" rule doesn't exist... Stops the unassailable checkerboard pattern of 4th.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Can you rotate a model once in B2B after a charge? I mean, assuming you have the additional inches on your charge range for your assumed oval bases movement.

I am with you on this one. I think the FAQ demonstrates an assumption that once a single model unit makes its "initial charge" on the primary, it may "wheel" towards the secondary.
I don't see anything in the BRB that would allow or disallow this, however.

Let's hope the Final Draft of the FAQ is clearer on this one.

 Galef wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Can you rotate a model once in B2B after a charge? I mean, assuming you have the additional inches on your charge range for your assumed oval bases movement.

I am with you on this one. I think the FAQ demonstrates an assumption that once a single model unit makes its "initial charge" on the primary, it may "wheel" towards the secondary.
I don't see anything in the BRB that would allow or disallow this, however.

Let's hope the Final Draft of the FAQ is clearer on this one.

Only as part of the Pile In, but if you are already Base to Base, you cannot do so.

Nothing allows you to wheel on the charge; you haven't then moved the shortest path.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing allows you to wheel on the charge; you haven't then moved the shortest path.

Agreed RAW, but the FAQ may imply otherwise.

All that the FAQ implies is that it is possible for the initial charging model to make contact with both the Primary and Secondary charge target despite this not being explicit in the rulebook.

There is no suggestion that the FAQ is trying to change any of the specific charge conditions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing allows you to wheel on the charge; you haven't then moved the shortest path.

It depends on the model's rules and the Terrain in question. Wheeling may be required if you have to go around Impassable Terrain instead of over.

Agreed, however you cannot contact the secondary target with the first model to move, and therefore even if you wheel, you cannot do so until after you've made base contact. At which point as you're still moving, you have now travelled a further distance than required, so you've broken the rules.

The faq allows you to declare the charge; you cannot, however, legally complete it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Agreed, however you cannot contact the secondary target with the first model to move, and therefore even if you wheel, you cannot do so until after you've made base contact. At which point as you're still moving, you have now travelled a further distance than required, so you've broken the rules.

The faq allows you to declare the charge; you cannot, however, legally complete it.

Not alone, no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Agreed, however you cannot contact the secondary target with the first model to move,...

I suspect that this is the part that the FAQ is attempting to 'clarify'...

Unlike 6th edition, where you declared the assault on your primary and then your second model could choose a secondary target, 7th edition simply allows you to declare the multiple targets.

While the section on moving your initial charger doesn't explicitly state that you can contact both primary and secondary targets with the first model, it also doesn't forbid it... So technically the rules for moving charging models would allow it, so long as the other conditions are met. It's simply unlikely to ever actually arise, as those conditions are extremely specific and would require some fairly precise model placement.

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Agreed, however you cannot contact the secondary target with the first model to move,...

I suspect that this is the part that the FAQ is attempting to 'clarify'...

Unlike 6th edition, where you declared the assault on your primary and then your second model could choose a secondary target, 7th edition simply allows you to declare the multiple targets.

While the section on moving your initial charger doesn't explicitly state that you can contact both primary and secondary targets with the first model, it also doesn't forbid it... So technically the rules for moving charging models would allow it, so long as the other conditions are met. It's simply unlikely to ever actually arise, as those conditions are extremely specific and would require some fairly precise model placement.

From Multiple Combats > Move Initial Charger

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models. That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target. Remember that the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this kind of charge.

For a single model there is no way that they could not make base contact with the Primary Target and have a successful Charge. The single model cannot then make base to base contact with a Secondary Target because it either fails its Charge or is in base contact with the Primary Target.

 Charistoph wrote:

For a single model there is no way that they could not make base contact with the Primary Target and have a successful Charge. The single model cannot then make base to base contact with a Secondary Target because it either fails its Charge or is in base contact with the Primary Target.

I didn't say you could not make contact with the primary target and still have a successful charge.

In order to successfully charge two different units, your model would need to make contact with models from both units. To do that, the enemy units would need to be positioned in such a way that your model can contact models from them both by moving in the most direct path to the nearest model in the primary unit, and that model in the primary unit would have to be already engaged with another model from your army.

Huh. So I tried to put a caveat in the original question to stop this debate from occurring. I guess I didn't really need to include it at all, the actual question works the same for multiple units charging, but I'm running a flying circus list at the moment that will need to deal with the situation a lot.




Yes, it does appear that IF the closest model in the primary target is already engaged with a friendly model AND the secondary target lies on the straight path between the charger and the primary target, it is possible for a single model to charge 2 targets at once.

On the other hand I don't believe that this is the situation that GW was referring to when they answered the question with a simple 'Yes'.
So now we're in a weird limbo where their stated answer either
a) answers a very very obscure question in a very general way, or
b) directly contradicts the existing rules WITHOUT going in to the mechanisms on how it contradicts the rules.

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

For a single model there is no way that they could not make base contact with the Primary Target and have a successful Charge. The single model cannot then make base to base contact with a Secondary Target because it either fails its Charge or is in base contact with the Primary Target.

I didn't say you could not make contact with the primary target and still have a successful charge.

In order to successfully charge two different units, your model would need to make contact with models from both units. To do that, the enemy units would need to be positioned in such a way that your model can contact models from them both by moving in the most direct path to the nearest model in the primary unit, and that model in the primary unit would have to be already engaged with another model from your army.

If you cannot reach base to base with the Primary Target, you Charge fails. You can only get in to base contact with a Secondary Target if you cannot reach the Primary Target.

These two rules make it physically impossible to do this on its own.

 Charistoph wrote:
You can only get in to base contact with a Secondary Target if you cannot reach the Primary Target..

This is incorrect.

You can only base the secondary target if you can't reach an unengaged model in the primary. As long as the nearest model in the primary unit is engaged with someone else, you can meet that criteria.

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
You can only get in to base contact with a Secondary Target if you cannot reach the Primary Target..

This is incorrect.

You can only base the secondary target if you can't reach an unengaged model in the primary. As long as the nearest model in the primary unit is engaged with someone else, you can meet that criteria.

And if your lone model has not reached the Primary Target on its own, it is not Engaged and has a failed Charge. So, you cannot go base to base with the Secondary Target until you have finished the Charge with the Primary Target, at which point you cannot

Move Initial Charger
Once Overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault (the model in the charging unit closest to the primary target) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would against a single target. If his charge fails, the charging unit doesn’t move at all.

So, you cannot rely on another unit being linked up to the the Primary Target.

 Charistoph wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
You can only get in to base contact with a Secondary Target if you cannot reach the Primary Target..

This is incorrect.

You can only base the secondary target if you can't reach an unengaged model in the primary. As long as the nearest model in the primary unit is engaged with someone else, you can meet that criteria.

And if your lone model has not reached the Primary Target on its own, it is not Engaged and has a failed Charge. So, you cannot go base to base with the Secondary Target until you have finished the Charge with the Primary Target, at which point you cannot

Move Initial Charger
Once Overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault (the model in the charging unit closest to the primary target) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would against a single target. If his charge fails, the charging unit doesn’t move at all.

So, you cannot rely on another unit being linked up to the the Primary Target.

What he's saying is that there's no restriction on primary target being engaged with the charging unit. You're allowed to use friends for help.

So IF the closest model in the target unit is already engaged,
then it is impossible to get in to BTB with an unengaged model in the primary target (as you must charge the closest model)
so it is allowed to get in to BTB with a model in the secondary target
so long as you ALSO take the shortest route to the primary target.


I made a diagram that I think shows the situation:

 Charistoph wrote:

And if your lone model has not reached the Primary Target on its own, it is not Engaged and has a failed Charge. So, you cannot go base to base with the Secondary Target until you have finished the Charge with the Primary Target, at which point you cannot

I have no idea what you're even arguing here.

Nobody is saying that you can charge if the charge fails.

It seems to me that, between the "can charge multiple units" and "can charge a unit in a ruin that you can't place so use Wobbley Model Syndrome" answers in the FAQ, GW is saying that the most important thing about charges is that you rolled high enough, and the second most important thing is that you would get "close".

Remember, normally you can't be within 1" of an enemy model unless you're getting into close combat with them. I think what they were saying with the Monstrous Creature charging multiple units FAQ is that if you charge an enemy, but the shortest path to that enemy would also bring you within 1" of another enemy unit, that you do successfully charge both.

So, let's say you have two units on small bases (say two units of Guardsmen), with one unit in a row up front, and another unit spread between them half an inch back. So, something like:

v^v^v^v^v

Such a unit cannot normally be charged, because you'd be unable to get into base to base contact with the front unit, you'd have to get within 1" of the back unit, but can't contact the back unit. This FAQ is saying "No, you do a disordered charge, and so long as your charge range was high enough, because you got "close enough" on the charge by being within 1", you get them into close combat even without coming into base contact with them."

That's my thoughts on the intent of this at least.

Again: there is no 1" rule when charging. THere is a no-btb rule when charging, unless you fulfill the requirements.

That checkerboard formation worked in fourth edition, to deny charges. Not since then

So if Insaniak's correctly pointed out the special situation that would need to occur for GW's FAQ to make any RAW sense... why wouldn't my MC just primary charge the secondary target?

Ohhh it's so he could shoot at the primary target while charging a secondary unit. This is clever!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
So if Insaniak's correctly pointed out the special situation that would need to occur for GW's FAQ to make any RAW sense... why wouldn't my MC just primary charge the secondary target?

Ohhh it's so he could shoot at the primary target while charging a secondary unit. This is clever!

So wait. Then it would be:

Unit A is farther from you than Unit B.

You want to shoot Unit A, so you do.

You want to charge Unit B. You declare a charge with A as primary and B as secondary. Am I right? I'm so drowning in this.