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Merellin wrote:
So, I think the Blood Angels have some cool models

all marines are the same. The only difference is rules...and power nipple armor.

The nipple armor is pretty fething silly. They have some cool bitz here and there, though.

They are supposed to be a CC army that is generally pretty bad at CC.They aren't survivable enough to get to CC and they are only okay in combat if they get the charge off. In this day and age thats a pretty big fuckin setback. Hence why SW work as an assault army and BA do not. Add in the fact that they have

- no Chapter Tactics,
- no worthwhile formations,
- sixth edition stats and point costs for half their units
- no access to vehicle squadrons
- no access to Storm talons, Centurions, Conclave, Landspeeder Storms, Grav cannons, Honor Guard, TFCs (essentially all of the units that make Vanilla Marines good)
- zero ANTI AIR defense.
- there are almost a dozen elites choices (including all of out "best" units) and still only 3 slots if you want ObSec
- Most of our characters were nerfed into uselessness (Tycho and Corbulo being literally unplayable)
- we can't even take bikes for our command squads for Petes sake

... and we just took a huge hit now that allies can't use our pods. Now, factor in how powerful shooting is this edition. Yea, BA are stank-ass terrible right now.

It really is as simple as saying that Raven Guard do our Jump Pack Army better now. And Space Wolves as a whole do the general assaulty army better as they have harder hitting units with more survivability and movement.

We are meant to be an assault based army that quite frankly doesn't actually do very well at it. We struggle to get into combat and once we have we don't pack a good enough punch.

I love the flavour of the blood angels but Death Company are the only elite unit that Vanilla marines don't have that I think are worth it and quite frankly the Wulfen are now much better than them and so are thunder wolf cavalry.

Sanguinary Guard should be bosses in close combat, Furioso dreads should be better than vanilla dreads, and I have said for years DC should have an aura effect similar to what the WULFen have with the curse thing.

The only BA army I play at the moment is Flesh Tearers Strike Force Drop Pod Sternguard with Mephiston. It's expensive but the only one I can find to work and it really doesn't feel Blood Angelly.

Many have said what I would say... but I just wanted to add; even the Blood Angels psychic powers are not so useful in the grand scheme.

They are mostly assaulting buffs, but one thing this codex can already do is, mean assaults -- the problem we have is 'getting into assault' and the psychic powers don't really help with that either.

We need a power like the (Nids) "The Horror" -- pinning with big modifiers... ...make everyone snap-shoot and stop overwatch.

Worst part is we don't even have access to the Get Into Assault discipline (Telepathy).

I wouldn't want it. I really hate invisibility.

Martel732 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
they are towards the bottom of the mid tier (possibly the bottom of mid tier) they can be fun but as mentioned are probably the worst marines, they can still be very fun, and in my opinion are one of the better looking space marines model lines out there.

They are not mid-tier. Mid-tier codices have a fighting chance at the top dogs. BA are arguably the worst list in the game with no MCs, no viable death stars, poor firepower, poor assault, and little durability. CSM are contenders because they are very mono-build and have gak models.

niv-mizzet wrote:Given that there are 20ish armies in the game, not counting the tiny "ally" factions like assassins or inquisition, and assuming your tiers are low-mid-high, you would need to be able to list 6 or 7 books worse to call something mid-tier. And tbh, for BA, I can't do that. Chaos marines and Astra militarum are really the only ones that come to mind. Tyranids would be down there if they weren't being pulled upwards by a single model. That's about it.

Honestly having almost every army and watching tournament results

bottom of bottom orks and csm

middle of bottom tyranids, DE, IG

top of bottom tier sisters

This is again from my personal experience, observations, and OPINION. every codex on this list have huge glaring problems and a slammed full of bloated points cost per unit or lacking certain abilities all together (like sisters and skyfire), if they had it on a codex unit they might be bottom of mid tier.

BA are hanging with DA on the bottom of mid tier in that they do not lack the ability to do anything in particular, they just lack the same toolbox and abilities of vanilla marins (who hang out in bottom of top tier btw) their units are both somewhat overcosted but usually in the right ballpark and while they could be tweaked a point or two here and there they are mostly playable and can have a fun competitive game with a reasonable chance of holding their own. It will be an uphill battle, and I acknowledge that both armies will have a harder time than the armies not in the bottom tier to do so, but it would be difficult to argue they are worse off than the bottom tier armies

Blood Angels are my 4th army since starting 40k 5 or 6 years ago and honestly i think they are one of the more challenging and fun armies to play. Of course I am not a tournament player so I can't speak as to their effectiveness on that scene but there is something to be said about playing the under dogs and winning on occasion. I say if you like the fluff play the army, if you are a tourney player probably not the best choice based on the comments above.

My favorite unit to run is Death Company piled into a land raider redeemer with Mephiston. It makes sense from a fluff perspective, though it can do some serious damage it can't really hang with the big boys.

Dantes_Baals wrote:


- no Chapter Tactics,

Furious charge

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


- no Chapter Tactics,

Furious charge

If you want to get technical, but it's really not a CT if your models don't get its bonus because they got shot off the table before they reach melee or because they were on the receiving end of the charge. Do you have any idea how many models I would sacrifice to the Chaos gods if I could just get a CT that fuckin works like counterattack? Hell crusader, one of the worst USRs in the book is no where near as situational as FC is.

So the question it begs is this. Is it a CT even if you only get to use it in say 1 out of every 5 games? I say no. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's something that the general can tactically manipulate to his advantage. IMO it's a gak load of wasted ink.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


- no Chapter Tactics,

Furious charge

Which is pretty mediocre if you compare it to chapter tactics of other SM factions. It's very situational, since it is only beneficial in combat and when you are the charging player.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


- no Chapter Tactics,

Furious charge

If you want to get technical, but it's really not a CT if your models don't get its bonus because they got shot off the table before they reach melee or because they were on the receiving end of the charge. Do you have any idea how many models I would sacrifice to the Chaos gods if I could just get a CT that fuckin works like counterattack? Hell crusader, one of the worst USRs in the book is no where near as situational as FC is.

So the question it begs is this. Is it a CT even if you only get to use it in say 1 out of every 5 games? I say no. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's something that the general can tactically manipulate to his advantage. IMO it's a gak load of wasted ink.

Still better than the RG CTs (Talon SF not-withstanding.) 90% of an RG army only get their CTs on turn 1, if at all (Tacticals that start the game in rhinoes\pods, for example, get literally nothing.)

From personal experience, Raven Guard almost always get first blood against my Blood Angels. And their assaults hits pretty hard.

 Swampmist wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


- no Chapter Tactics,

Furious charge

If you want to get technical, but it's really not a CT if your models don't get its bonus because they got shot off the table before they reach melee or because they were on the receiving end of the charge. Do you have any idea how many models I would sacrifice to the Chaos gods if I could just get a CT that fuckin works like counterattack? Hell crusader, one of the worst USRs in the book is no where near as situational as FC is.

So the question it begs is this. Is it a CT even if you only get to use it in say 1 out of every 5 games? I say no. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's something that the general can tactically manipulate to his advantage. IMO it's a gak load of wasted ink.

Still better than the RG CTs (Talon SF not-withstanding.) 90% of an RG army only get their CTs on turn 1, if at all (Tacticals that start the game in rhinoes\pods, for example, get literally nothing.)

I gotta wave the BS flag here.

A. You get to use both every game, guaranteed.
B. If you know how to place your scouts, jumpers devs +1 to a ruin save is a pretty big deal.
C. Reroll in wounds (even just HoW) is enough to turn an assault in your favor. Using the JP twice in the same turn all but guarantees YOU get to choose when and where the assault will take place . Don't get me started on how it helps with Objective grabbing and getting secondaries like linebreaker.

Don't believe me? Try running your RG with just FC (no shrouded, no JP tricks) next game and give us an update. I'll wait.

It seems to me that Blood Angels are in the same spot as Dark Angels before they got their newest codex. Basically just Space Marines without the good stuff. Dark Angels finally got their much-needed update and now can play with the big boys. Blood Angels are still waiting for theirs. IMO when it comes it will probably be very good, if the DA book is any evidence.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It seems to me that Blood Angels are in the same spot as Dark Angels before they got their newest codex. Basically just Space Marines without the good stuff. Dark Angels finally got their much-needed update and now can play with the big boys. Blood Angels are still waiting for theirs. IMO when it comes it will probably be very good, if the DA book is any evidence.

I actually disagree with this, because I don't think the BA core idea works anymore.

Martel732 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It seems to me that Blood Angels are in the same spot as Dark Angels before they got their newest codex. Basically just Space Marines without the good stuff. Dark Angels finally got their much-needed update and now can play with the big boys. Blood Angels are still waiting for theirs. IMO when it comes it will probably be very good, if the DA book is any evidence.

I actually disagree with this, because I don't think the BA core idea works anymore.

Ditto. DA could at least shoot like they were supposed to in 6th. Especially with the Dakka banner. BA (like others have said ) are assault specialists that don't assault very well. If they can't perform the function they are designed around they are considerably worse off without "the good stuff".

Oh, I moved over to 30k a long time ago. Though, when I did get to play my 40k RG, I did have a force of mostly non-jp PA, because that's what I own. and it sucked. Also, the RG are the only force in the C:SM book that is punished for taking transports, and basically cannot use the Gladius at all. Yes, the JP thing is useful, but before the Talon SF came out you couldn't run enough JPs to actually use it. Also, sure, shrouding t1 is good , i guess, but it literally only lasts for t1, Do BA suck? Entirely so, I';m not arguing that fact. But their "CTs" still help the core idea that their army is based around (even if that idea atr it's core doesn't work this edition anyway.) The RG are punished for using the basic tactics of a C:SM army, and gain very few benefits to compensate. But, they got the Talon, and now their pretty ok. Hopefully the BA will be able to do something similar.

Not to copy, but essentially would army wide FNP or something of the like (like Necron's RP) be good for BA AND be fluffy? I know BA's most iconic units are the Death Company and I think FNP would be a decent boost for them.

We need a power like the (Nids) "The Horror" -- pinning with big modifiers... ...make everyone snap-shoot and stop overwatch.

Just as an aside, in Horus Heresy, the Blood Angel's unique Rite Of War does something very similar to this.

Essentially they get to deep strike half their reserved jump infantry on turn 1, and when a unit of jump infantry lands, the opponent can only snap fire at them for a turn. It goes a long way to giving them that breathing room for massed jump infanry to land in close, form up and charge.

Still vulnerable to counter-assaults, but (in theory) if your army is mostly assault marines, and you can't handle getting charged, you're doing it wrong.

(or engaging world eaters at close quarters, which is essentially a specific subset of 'doing it wrong'...)

 jreilly89 wrote:
Not to copy, but essentially would army wide FNP or something of the like (like Necron's RP) be good for BA AND be fluffy? I know BA's most iconic units are the Death Company and I think FNP would be a decent boost for them.

Iron Hands only have a 6+++. And they're supposed to be the FNP army in terms of Marines.

locarno24 wrote:

We need a power like the (Nids) "The Horror" -- pinning with big modifiers... ...make everyone snap-shoot and stop overwatch.

Just as an aside, in Horus Heresy, the Blood Angel's unique Rite Of War does something very similar to this.

Essentially they get to deep strike half their reserved jump infantry on turn 1, and when a unit of jump infantry lands, the opponent can only snap fire at them for a turn. It goes a long way to giving them that breathing room for massed jump infanry to land in close, form up and charge.

Still vulnerable to counter-assaults, but (in theory) if your army is mostly assault marines, and you can't handle getting charged, you're doing it wrong.

(or engaging world eaters at close quarters, which is essentially a specific subset of 'doing it wrong'...)

Actually, that's one of the generic ROWs. The BA one makes all jp models ds t1, but has different effects (instead of forcing snapshots you get a 5+ cover in open ground, all weapons get pinning on the turn they ds, and you get +1I on the charge like in 40k.) 30k BA are better because, as long as they have a CC weapon other than the free one you have when not equipped with one, they have require 1 less to wound (wpund t3 on 2s, t4 on 3s, t5 on 4s, ect.) at all times, not just on the charge.