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I think from a stand alone GK army perspective they really need something like psybolts in order to compete. They have very little access to good anti-tank and they have issues dealing damage to things like Wraith Knights at range. They do at least have a plethora of instant death, which is a mitigating factor. I always found them to be lacking when it came to things like anti-tank barring the extremely lucky rending rolls. Sure they can still take riflemen dreads these days but they are still high priced walkers. I really think that GKs should either get their old psybolts back at a reasonable cost or have things like melta guns or lascannons available to them (or devs, or even grav, but grav may be too much)

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I think from a stand alone GK army perspective they really need something like psybolts in order to compete. They have very little access to good anti-tank and they have issues dealing damage to things like Wraith Knights at range. They do at least have a plethora of instant death, which is a mitigating factor. I always found them to be lacking when it came to things like anti-tank barring the extremely lucky rending rolls. Sure they can still take riflemen dreads these days but they are still high priced walkers. I really think that GKs should either get their old psybolts back at a reasonable cost or have things like melta guns or lascannons available to them (or devs, or even grav, but grav may be too much)

Agreed. I shake my head when I read the fluff that says they have the best weapons in the imperium.........

 Orock wrote:
Psybolt ammo SHOULD have been standard issue for all Grey knights and just lowered demon invun saves by one.

^--- That. Exactly that. Or maybe just invul saves in general to make it more applicable against all armies (before the Warddex the main problem with GKs was that they're too focused on Daemons).

 the_Armyman wrote:


You seem angry about riflemen dreads. See how attributing emotions does nothing for discussion?

I'll freely admit that I was disgusted with psyfleman dreads. That doesn't mean they weren't undercosted or that 4x twinlinked strength 8 shots a turn isn't far more firepower than any other chapter's dreads can access.

This game stopped emphasizing theme around the time allies for everyone became a thing. Also, GK don't need transports now that everyone can teleport on turn 1. These are mechanical problems with the game, not with a +1S shooting upgrade.

Should the game have stopped emphasising theme?

Allies allow players to disregard theme and put Abaddon and Creed in the same deployment zone but that's not what they're for.
The decision to allow players more freedom in selecting their armies shouldn't have come at the expense of individual army theme- Black Templars didn't have whirlwinds or dev squads in their list- not because they shouldn't have them in-universe but to make sure the army plays a certain way on the table- close range firefight or melee.

I'm a Black Templar player and hold the same disregard for BT players who used the FAQ back in the day to spam cheap cyclone/typhoon missile launchers as I hold for GK players who turned their army into a psychic gunline backed up by psychic strafing runs.

It's not good for the game and it's not representative of the Army.

Just off the top of my head, Veterans of the Long War is an optional, invisible upgrade for CSMs. IG veterans can be upgraded with camo cloaks, carapace armor, and melta bombs. Guess how many people I've seen represent those upgrades on their units? Their are tons of wargear upgrades like artificer armor, master-crafted weapons, and relics that are never properly modeled.

Ask how many chaos players are happy with the current arrangement... but Veterans of the long war is not invisible. It's supposed to be present on original legionnaires- who should be identifiable from the non veterans by their heraldry, level of mutation/blessing/adornment or their armour marks. Giving VOTLW to some recently turned Ultra Marine successor renegades is not the intent.
In my Thousand Sons army, non rubric units are bareheaded for clarity- representing living new recruits who are not VOTLW.

Master crafted should be represented by a particularly ornate weapon - as Artificer Armour shouldn't be represented by unadorned MK VII. Both of these are character upgrades and not unit upgrades- its a little bit easier to remember the Captain has a 2+ save than remember which silver units (that all look alike) have the +1 guns today.

Carapace/Camo cloaks are easily modeled and if they're not your opponent is doing it wrong. As a guard player I'd advocate that you at least model the sergeant correctly to keep track of who has what. While there are actually cloaks in the command box ( also your go to place for plasmaguns etc) Catachans painted up with camo make a cheap and cheerful representation of a camouflaged unit and if you can't greenstuff a little extra armour onto a cadian (arms and legs look good) then there are simple head/breastplate swaps with fantasy knights or the new plastic stormtroopers that can get the job done.

If the bare minimum isn't being done then you are the one playing vs 'douchey people with proxy armies'.
I've seen GK armies where Psybolt weapons were painted glowing blue to differentiate them and that was far more acceptable to me due to the effort put in- but ultimately still failed as a concept.