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DKoK units automatically pass Fear checks caused by losing units in their squad

(Previous entrenchment-idea from Tau Tse Tung refined) Instead of shooting, the guardsmen can entrench themselves to gain +1 in cover save when there's cover and +2 when thery're in open ground (or instead they can create small entrenchment-scenery, like sandbags, that can be used by everyone)

All sniper rifles have unlimited range, but whenever they shoot an enemy that is further than their actual range the model has to make snapshots (or -2 or similar in accuracy).

When a blast weapon fires at a target that is nearer than half of the maximum range, instead of rolling 2D6 with the dispersion dice, just role 1D6

DKoK don't take LD checks for losing units, except for losses in combat, but there are very few things that will not wipe out 10 guardsmen, even if they're WS4

 master of ordinance wrote:
Leman Russ would have LB and a 4++ save

Baneblades would be AV 15/14/14 and have a 4++ save

What? Since when do Baneblades and LRs have forcefields and Warlord Titan-grade armour?


#makerussesav13

#fluffmarinecodexwhen

#marinelivesmatter

 GloomyFenix wrote:

edit I re-read what you said and get what you mean now.

For guardsmen "digging in" I'd be content with an order whereby infantry squads can Go to Ground, but fire at full BS. Give the order to PCSs and CCSs. No where near over-powered. Gives PCSs an actual use and competes with other orders like FRFSRF, FOMT or BID.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Leman Russ would have LB and a 4++ save

Baneblades would be AV 15/14/14 and have a 4++ save

What? Since when do Baneblades and LRs have forcefields and Warlord Titan-grade armour?

Not forcefields, the 4++ save comes from the chassis being so damn tough that it can throw off just about everything that hits it (seriously, read some Guard fluff). Baneblades are even tougher - if you ever read the Gaunts Ghosts series or the Gunheads books then you will see. In Gaunts Ghosts Baneblades are nigh unkillable - one is killed by a lucky shot that passes through the hole created by another tankers Augur shell, and this is only after the thing has taken out about half the Imperial tanks and withstood hits from Laser Destroyers.
In Gunheads a Baneblade captured by the Orks takes hits from several companies of Leman Russ tanks for no appreciable damage beyond scorched plates and is only stopped when the Ork Warboss commanding it is hit by an AP shell.

Both of these tanks are, in fluff, stupidly tough. Sure they are not fast, but they are not meant to be. They take the hits like no one else can.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Leman Russ would have LB and a 4++ save

Baneblades would be AV 15/14/14 and have a 4++ save

What? Since when do Baneblades and LRs have forcefields and Warlord Titan-grade armour?

Not forcefields, the 4++ save comes from the chassis being so damn tough that it can throw off just about everything that hits it (seriously, read some Guard fluff). Baneblades are even tougher - if you ever read the Gaunts Ghosts series or the Gunheads books then you will see. In Gaunts Ghosts Baneblades are nigh unkillable - one is killed by a lucky shot that passes through the hole created by another tankers Augur shell, and this is only after the thing has taken out about half the Imperial tanks and withstood hits from Laser Destroyers.
In Gunheads a Baneblade captured by the Orks takes hits from several companies of Leman Russ tanks for no appreciable damage beyond scorched plates and is only stopped when the Ork Warboss commanding it is hit by an AP shell.

Both of these tanks are, in fluff, stupidly tough. Sure they are not fast, but they are not meant to be. They take the hits like no one else can.

Give a 4++ to Vindicators and Land Raiders too then, it's not like they are any less resilient than Russes (that Siege Shield). Hell, Russes already pay 100pts less than a Land Raider for the same AV (that everyone will be shooting at since you are 72" away, unless the enemy uses heinously expensive suicide drop troops).

And in the fluff, Marines dodge bullets that they notice after they have been fired, shrug off massed lasguns and frag grenades and run at 100+ KPH. If you agree to that, I'll agree to your superBaneblades.

Oh, but that is stupid, of course. It's only okay when Guard do it. When Marines do it they are mary sues for kids, when Marbo does it it is heroic and manly.

>.<

-Ork clans space marine style + some clan only units
- a lot of Ia8 incorporated in the codex.
- resurrection of a lot of old oop ork units

 oldzoggy wrote:

- resurrection of a lot of old oop ork units

We need this. I don't even like Orks anymore and even I am annoyed over the removal of so much stuff.

You should see my friend's Wazdakka conversion. It's a beauty.

Our flier swarms would be actually equal to the Imperium of man (Tau) where as right now our two fliers are the worst of any fliers in the game that got even worse with the new flying supplement.

Praise the Earth Caste Engineers of FW for updating the Barracuda. Now make the rules good for having to suffer the ugliest looking fliers in the game and the worst in terms of stats. I'll take 10 flying brick fighters before I field a Tau codex fighter.

And a "Kustom supplement".
That would inlcude rules for things like the
-Kustom units: Kustom stompa, Kustom battle fortress, Kustom mega dread, all sorts of other Kustom versions of popular units such as kustom trukks wagons and gorkanauts.
-ork fortiications
-Additional low power kustom (relic like) items for nob and meks

+ Some nice conversion guides on how to kitbash them together from other GW kits.

This would make a lot of ork players happy

Add stuff like being allowed to 'loot' vehicles from other factions (weaker versions to not make the mix&matching too OP, adding Don't Press Dat, etc).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Leman Russ would have LB and a 4++ save

Baneblades would be AV 15/14/14 and have a 4++ save

What? Since when do Baneblades and LRs have forcefields and Warlord Titan-grade armour?

Not forcefields, the 4++ save comes from the chassis being so damn tough that it can throw off just about everything that hits it (seriously, read some Guard fluff). Baneblades are even tougher - if you ever read the Gaunts Ghosts series or the Gunheads books then you will see. In Gaunts Ghosts Baneblades are nigh unkillable - one is killed by a lucky shot that passes through the hole created by another tankers Augur shell, and this is only after the thing has taken out about half the Imperial tanks and withstood hits from Laser Destroyers.
In Gunheads a Baneblade captured by the Orks takes hits from several companies of Leman Russ tanks for no appreciable damage beyond scorched plates and is only stopped when the Ork Warboss commanding it is hit by an AP shell.

Both of these tanks are, in fluff, stupidly tough. Sure they are not fast, but they are not meant to be. They take the hits like no one else can.

Give a 4++ to Vindicators and Land Raiders too then, it's not like they are any less resilient than Russes (that Siege Shield). Hell, Russes already pay 100pts less than a Land Raider for the same AV (that everyone will be shooting at since you are 72" away, unless the enemy uses heinously expensive suicide drop troops).

And in the fluff, Marines dodge bullets that they notice after they have been fired, shrug off massed lasguns and frag grenades and run at 100+ KPH. If you agree to that, I'll agree to your superBaneblades.

Oh, but that is stupid, of course. It's only okay when Guard do it. When Marines do it they are mary sues for kids, when Marbo does it it is heroic and manly.

>.<

Landraiders, yes I can see that, but Vindicators? Those things are just upgunned APC's with some extra armour slapped on. There is no way in hell that those things have the structural integrity to withstand dedicated AT hits like the purpose built chassis.
And whilst we are here I would like to put paid to the falsehoods that:
A) Leman Russ have the same effective armour as a Land Raider. No even close sonny, the Russ can be flanked and spanked or meleed to death. It also lacks the troop capacity and assault vehicle rule and BS4 and that extra HP that the Landraider gets and its firepower is only slightly better.
B) 72" is the maximum range of the gun. It never happens unless you are playing on a custom built board/car park. The average engagement range in 40K is 18" to 36"
C) 'Suicide drop troops' and 'Space Marines' are not words that go together. 'R-p-tastic drop troops' on the other hand.... Yeah.
and finally
D) You see, the reason everyone gets fed up with Marines and calls them Mary Sue's is because every single piece of their fluff portrays how they are these utterly excellent perfections of mankind standing seven to eight feet tall with these incredibly well toned bodies and these minds that can absorb and understand everything around them in the blink of an eye and how even when naked they can just shrug off weapons fire and when armoured they are each, individually, the equivalent of an entire army and how they are able to do things like defeat an entire Dark Eldar raiding cabal single handedly, fight with greater demons and win, defeat Necron Tomb Worlds and even solo the Nightbringer, amongst other things.
Every. Single. One. Of. Them. is a depicted as a Mary Sue whereas the Guardsmen are depicted as basic grunt humans who go out into the cold and unforgiving universe to fight on the front line. They are not given any fancy power armour or Bolter, nor are they given gene enhancements or the Sueseed. They are regular, bog standard humans with all the flaws and failings that humans have and yet, in a universe filled with countless horrors from ancient machine robots to hideous giant insects, from angry green fungi to monstrosities from beyond the veil they hold the line.
They die in countless billions and yet still they hold and THAT is what makes them amazing. Yes they have characters like Marbo who are a bit sueish BUT they are almost unheard of. And even then these characters still have some form of grittiness to them, unlike the shining power armoured Marines.

And yet, when it comes down to the crunch Marines have utterly amazing rules and entire supplements dedicated to them and are the 2nd most powerful army within the game whilst the Guard languish with a Codex that is set during the 3rd and 5th editions and has only one unit that is actually worth its points. And yet still the Marine players howl and whine and demand more.

 master of ordinance wrote:


And yet, when it comes down to the crunch Marines have utterly amazing rules and entire supplements dedicated to them and are the 2nd most powerful army within the game whilst the Guard languish with a Codex that is set during the 3rd and 5th editions and has only one unit that is actually worth its points. And yet still the Marine players howl and whine and demand more.

For the Vindicator: Have you seen that massive Siege Shield?

40k's lore is not fair. SM are stronger than Guardsmen. That is just how it is. In fact, they are not even playing in the same ballpark. Dealing with that comes with accepting the IG faction.

Whether IG units are overcosted or not is a separate matter (in many cases, they are overcosted indeed), but every unit in your codex is by far more powerful compared to just about everyone else than it is in the lore, whether we compare to marines or necrons or tyranids or eldar, so I can't have much sympathy for your units feeling like their stats are too low.

Much like Dr. Manhattan and Superman, having someone play on a whole different field compared most others does not make for bad lore, it just looks like it triggers envy... (And Marines are far from that strong). Sure, many Marine books are badly written but that is just GW hiring bad authors, not the Marine design being poor.

 master of ordinance wrote:
the Guardsmen are depicted as basic grunt humans who go out into the cold and unforgiving universe to fight on the front line. They are not given any fancy power armour or Bolter, nor are they given gene enhancements or the Sueseed. They are regular, bog standard humans with all the flaws and failings that humans have and yet, in a universe filled with countless horrors from ancient machine robots to hideous giant insects, from angry green fungi to monstrosities from beyond the veil they hold the line.
They die in countless billions and yet still they hold and THAT is what makes them amazing.

IG would be really cool if this was the case, but it isn't. Everyone is pushing to advocate IG as just as strong (or nearly as strong, as in the game) as everyone else, which makes them pretty pointless.

I do not want to root for the 'underdog' IG at all when they are not actually meaningfully underdog to begin with. If you want my sympathy points for how heroic IG are when the normal little guy makes a stand against the monsters of the galaxy, they must actually be outmatched first.

This is a key reason why the original Dawn of War was so horrible - the raw statlines were so similar everyone was just reskinned IG - and it really kills the grimdark for me. If you want 'humanity feth yeah' and your everyday guy expecting to cut down the horrors of the galaxy with his flashlight, you have come to the wrong setting. Those days were twenty thousand years ago.

Necron gauss weapons reduce armor saves by 1 and AV by 2. The new values are used for weapon AP and armor penetration.
Its a weapon that causes molecules to disintegrate; the current system doesn't really represent that.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


And yet, when it comes down to the crunch Marines have utterly amazing rules and entire supplements dedicated to them and are the 2nd most powerful army within the game whilst the Guard languish with a Codex that is set during the 3rd and 5th editions and has only one unit that is actually worth its points. And yet still the Marine players howl and whine and demand more.

For the Vindicator: Have you seen that massive Siege Shield?

40k's lore is not fair. SM are stronger than Guardsmen. That is just how it is. In fact, they are not even playing in the same ballpark. Dealing with that comes with accepting the IG faction.

Whether IG units are overcosted or not is a separate matter (in many cases, they are overcosted indeed), but every unit in your codex is by far more powerful compared to just about everyone else than it is in the lore, whether we compare to marines or necrons or tyranids or eldar, so I can't have much sympathy for your units feeling like their stats are too low.

Much like Dr. Manhattan and Superman, having someone play on a whole different field compared most others does not make for bad lore, it just looks like it triggers envy... (And Marines are far from that strong). Sure, many Marine books are badly written but that is just GW hiring bad authors, not the Marine design being poor.

 master of ordinance wrote:
the Guardsmen are depicted as basic grunt humans who go out into the cold and unforgiving universe to fight on the front line. They are not given any fancy power armour or Bolter, nor are they given gene enhancements or the Sueseed. They are regular, bog standard humans with all the flaws and failings that humans have and yet, in a universe filled with countless horrors from ancient machine robots to hideous giant insects, from angry green fungi to monstrosities from beyond the veil they hold the line.
They die in countless billions and yet still they hold and THAT is what makes them amazing.

IG would be really cool if this was the case, but it isn't. Everyone is pushing to advocate IG as just as strong (or nearly as strong, as in the game) as everyone else, which makes them pretty pointless.

I do not want to root for the 'underdog' IG at all when they are not actually meaningfully underdog to begin with. If you want my sympathy points for how heroic IG are when the normal little guy makes a stand against the monsters of the galaxy, they must actually be outmatched first.

This is a key reason why the original Dawn of War was so horrible - the raw statlines were so similar everyone was just reskinned IG - and it really kills the grimdark for me. If you want 'humanity feth yeah' and your everyday guy expecting to cut down the horrors of the galaxy with his flashlight, you have come to the wrong setting. Those days were twenty thousand years ago.

Space marines are in the same ballpark. Marines die to shotguns 11% of the time they are hit by them.

And there aren't nearly enough marines in the lore to matter anyway.

Martel732 wrote:


And there aren't nearly enough marines in the lore to matter anyway.

Irrelevant. This is a skirmish game that rarely has more than 50 soldiers per side, not a galaxy strategic command game.

Martel732 wrote:
Space marines are in the same ballpark. Marines die to shotguns 11% of the time they are hit by them.

See, this is exactly what I meant.

See, I don't everything being so powerful that humans have no chance of kicking their asses, merely that they're at a disadvantage, its why normal humans will lose to normal Marines more often than not, but it also explains why the more competent and the occasional lucky guy gets a kill on stuff like Marines. Meanwhile Orks tactics means they're vulnerable to the most Guard regiments fight, hence why they can on equal numbers and generally win or not get stomped. I don't view humans as being those fumbling idiots that always lose while their weapons tickle their foe. For that matter, I am not fond of the ''underdog'' status of human in the setting, and I'd much rather see them being to kick ass but having to make efforts for it rather than effortlessly kill everything (Marines) or being effortlessly killed by everything (Ash vision, I think)

Edit: Except overpowered artillery <3

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And there aren't nearly enough marines in the lore to matter anyway.

Irrelevant. This is a skirmish game that rarely has more than 50 soldiers per side, not a galaxy strategic command game.

Martel732 wrote:
Space marines are in the same ballpark. Marines die to shotguns 11% of the time they are hit by them.

See, this is exactly what I meant.

And a Guardsman dies to that shotty 50% of the time, or even more so if it is a super special Marine one.

My point was not to say that the Imperial Guard should be blatantly over powered like certain factions but that for once I would actually like to have a sodding chance rather than having the setting up of my army feel like a very brief display of models I do not even know why I painted because by turn three 90% of them will have been packed up again.
Right now playing Guard is like playing with all the good fluff removed and only the bad fluff used to design the crunch. We get wasted by anything even vaguely competitive.

"We get wasted by anything even vaguely competitive."

And yet you are more efficient against the best weapon in the game: the scatterlaser.

I negated your statement in 10 seconds.

And a guardsmen with any kind of cover is far more efficient than a marine against all kinds of weapon systems.

 Bobthehero wrote:
being effortlessly killed by everything (Ash vision, I think)

Being effortlessly stomped by almost everything makes it all the more noteworthy when a human hero breaks that trend.

See Ollanius Pius. He would be meaningless if everyone expected him to go up against Horus because 'he stood a decent chance of winning, so why wouldn't he?'

Not a decent chance, especially not with the powers of the 4 gods and all that.

I don't expect a guardsman to just go bayonet Abaddon in the face, either.

It was an example. I struggle to be interested or care if IG defeat those oh so dangerous monsters that everyone expected them to defeat zzzzzz oh look how heroic they are, normal humans beating the astronomical odds (50-50!!!!!) and killing that alien monster wow so human spirit and very determination wins through!!one!

Seriously though, on a soldier-per-soldier (and tank-per-tank) basis, IG should be a little bit behind Orks and far behind things like Necrons and Eldar, because that is their role - partially because they are many, and partially because grimdark setting where humanity is losing.

That is what I think. Normal humans are the only real metric of comparison we have, so it makes the entire setting seem more dangerous.

Martel732 wrote:"We get wasted by anything even vaguely competitive."

And yet you are more efficient against the best weapon in the game: the scatterlaser.

I negated your statement in 10 seconds.

And a guardsmen with any kind of cover is far more efficient than a marine against all kinds of weapon systems.

Martel, really? The Scatterlaser? Of all the even vaguely useful things you had to pick from you chose: The other Heavy Bolter.

Ashiraya wrote:It was an example. I struggle to be interested or care if IG defeat those oh so dangerous monsters that everyone expected them to defeat zzzzzz oh look how heroic they are, normal humans beating the astronomical odds (50-50!!!!!) and killing that alien monster wow so human spirit and very determination wins through!!one!

Seriously though, on a soldier-per-soldier (and tank-per-tank) basis, IG should be a little bit behind Orks and far behind things like Necrons and Eldar, because that is their role - partially because they are many, and partially because grimdark setting where humanity is losing.

That is what I think. Normal humans are the only real metric of comparison we have, so it makes the entire setting seem more dangerous.

Oh I agree, if Imperial Guardsmen where suddenly playing wack-a-mole in melee with Marines then something would have gone so terribly wrong that I would stop playing the faction entirely.

What I am on about is my strength - amassed firepower - being utterly laughable because even FRFSRF Lasgun units at close range is usually utterly pointless.

I don't think the problem is that Lasguns are worthless. The problem is their big guns are useless.

I am fine with Guardsmen being much stronger in the game than in the lore (the lore is basically unplayable as a game anyway, outside of the RPGs) as long as people stop confusing the two.




And points costs are naturally non-existent in the lore so go wild there. In other words, I'd be 100% fine with it if you took the high price of those Rough Riders and

But they're not much stronger, they fit what you said, a bit weaker than orks, a lot weaker than Eldars and Necrons

Eldar Guardians are 9 ppm, Guardsmen are 5. We seem to be having different thoughts of 'a lot'.

I am thinking more of the RPG where lasguns can't really hurt Marines at all.

Of course you did.

Martel732 wrote:
"We get wasted by anything even vaguely competitive."

And yet you are more efficient against the best weapon in the game: the scatterlaser.

I negated your statement in 10 seconds.

And a guardsmen with any kind of cover is far more efficient than a marine against all kinds of weapon systems.

Have you ever witnessed a guard vs eldar battle?
Theyre painful to watch...

 STG wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"We get wasted by anything even vaguely competitive."

And yet you are more efficient against the best weapon in the game: the scatterlaser.

I negated your statement in 10 seconds.

And a guardsmen with any kind of cover is far more efficient than a marine against all kinds of weapon systems.

Have you ever witnessed a guard vs eldar battle?
Theyre painful to watch...

They go a lot better than BA vs Eldar. Or CSM vs Eldar. Or Ork vs Eldar. You have way more wounds to give and way more firepower being thrown down field.

"Martel, really? The Scatterlaser? Of all the even vaguely useful things you had to pick from you chose: The other Heavy Bolter. "

I don't think you really have a grasp of how this game works at all. The scatterlaser is a huge reason the Eldar are what they are. Arguably the single biggest reason. It's a troop weapon that kills IK on the side at 36".

And FRFSRF/misfortune combo is better than anything in the BA, Ork, or CSM codices.