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I would love a CSM basic marine kit that looks like the new raptors. Kinda bringing the whole CSM range to look like the dark vengeance chosen. Hopefully this has been their plan all along and they are just getting rid of the old kits in the meantime.

Experiment 626 wrote:

*sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.
HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!

A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.

A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.

A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.

The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.

The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"

I think H.B.M.C. is just talking about it from a mechanistic stand point. That they should have rules and the rules should be organized and balanced in a way similar to 30k. Not that they should be 30k rules.

I mostly agree. I think they'd be pretty far removed from their 30k form. For instance the Iron Warriors fought in a high attrition style, by the 40k era even that Chaos Legion is mostly organized into smaller warbands making that style of warfare less sustainable. Without a reliably steady flow of new marines it's hard to imagine any warband would commit their marines that way. So they'd likely use their cultists in that role. Iron Warriors would still favor artillery and havoc squads but wouldn't use the weapons that are too difficult to maintain and keep supplied, so much of the 30k and newer loyalist weaponry they wouldn't necessarily use. It requires us to think about how an attrition minded siege force would adapt to being smaller.

Similarly you could see any number of former legions re-organized around the premise of using cultists as fodder and human shields... Thematically that distinguishes them from loyalists and build legionaries as predominantly elite forces comprised of ancient(-ish) veterans. There are any number of ways that that the Legions' tactics would translate into how they use cultists.

This speaks to what should be an underlying theme to CSM in 40k, "how did each legion adapt to survive?"... In that way the Legion tactics of old are just a starting point.

The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.

Iron Warriors for example should still have a thematic bonus vs. fortifications, and something like Stubborn or Fearless when occupying ruins/fortifications of their own. (army-wide Tank Hunters would probably be completely OP...)
Night Lords likewise, wouldn't be breaking the game if they got army-wide Fear & Hit-and-Run, etc...


As for replacing their losses, they're still Marines at the end of the day. Chaos forces will still reclaim the geneseed of their own fallen, and they'll also steal from defeated Loyalists. By the same token, it's actually easier for Chaos forces to grow new Marines, since they're not held back by the edicts of Imperial law or the rigorous practices & checks of Loyalist Chapters.
Chaos Marines will instead use illegal cloning techniques, and/or combine daemonic sorcery into the mix as well.

Heck, in 'Dead Sky Black Sun', just a single Iron Warriors fortress was pumping out dozens of potential new marines at a time. While the rate of failure was high, Honsu's forces were easily creating new fully fledged Chaos Marines at the same rate that it takes a Loyalist Chapter to create a new recruit.

When you think about it, if Chaos Marines weren't actively creating new Marines at a decent rate, they'd have all but died out within a few centuries!

Need Cult options for the most Units.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.

Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.

Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.

Obviously... just like Loyalists, getting two different sets of Legion rules would require using allied detachments, and similar to Loyalists, throwing an IC w/Legion Trait 'A' into a squad with Legion Trait 'B' would cancel out both sets of rules.

Likewise, hopefully they keep the rules that prevent mixing up different Marks within a single unit...
Throwing an unmarked, (Undecided), character into a marked unit is one thing. Throwing a Slaaneshii or Tzeentchian Sorcerer into a unit of Khornate Termies? Feth that!

...What's saddest is rumours hinting new edition...and CSM being the 'first new book'.

Again.

Because we know how well that worked out the past two times, right?

Experiment 626 wrote:
*sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.

Settle down Chopper. You'll strain something.

Experiment 626 wrote:
HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!

You do realise that's exactly the point I was making right? Jesus...

Experiment 626 wrote:
A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.

A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.

A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.

The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.

The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"

Guess what? We agree. Now stop yelling at me.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
...What's saddest is rumours hinting new edition...and CSM being the 'first new book'.

Again.

Because we know how well that worked out the past two times, right?

I can see it now...
- Everything that doesn't have a current, physical model will be removed from the codex... So no more Chosen (as there's no kit), no more upgrades at all for Cultists (DV exclusives), Combi-weapons & Power axes become 'Terminators Only', etc...

- Power creep is suddenly bad, so to re-balance everything, all pts costs go up by at least 25% across the board.
Formations are also suddenly decided to be potentially unbalanced, so CSM's will be the first book to return to using a standard CAD... However, to be fluffy and reflect the fact that Chaos Marines have little in the way of resources, they'll get a special unique CAD which they must always use, that allows for 1HQ, 0 Elites, 4-8 Troops, 1 Fast Attack, 1/2 Heavy Support. (ie: you can take Havocs, but their heavy weapons are all out of ammo!)

- Lord of Skulls becomes the default LoW choice, but taking one restricts the entire army to MoK only.

- The Helldrake now costs 300pts, drops to av10 on all facings, but the Baleflamer becomes ap2.

Loyalists will still cry foul and claim that new CSM's are OP filth, because Baledrakes can now deny saves to Gravcents!

2 weeks after new Chaos Marines release, Vanillas will get a new codex that suddenly features Tactical Squads replacing their bolters for unit-wide Grav guns, Autocannons are added as a new heavy weapon option, and two brand new units - the Holyfriend w/2x Emperos Cannons @S8/ap2/Heavy 8, and the Emprahzord w/12" move + Fleet, IWND/3++ & WS6/S10/A6 + re-rolls to hit every turn in combat, are released! Each will only cost 130pts.

How's that for curse listing?!



@HMBC: I'm sorry, I took your post to be against the idea of Legion Traits. I apologise for misunderstanding.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.

Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.

Even better - from now on all CSM will treat each other as Come the Apocalypse allies because it's always the Apocalypse when CSM show up! This applies to models in the same Legion too so they can't actually join their own squads. As a result they also can't deploy in unit coherency so they spend the first turn trying to get within 2" of each other and then the rest of the game testing for One Eye Open.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
...What's saddest is rumours hinting new edition...and CSM being the 'first new book'.

Again.

Because we know how well that worked out the past two times, right?

I can see it now...
- Everything that doesn't have a current, physical model will be removed from the codex... So no more Chosen (as there's no kit), no more upgrades at all for Cultists (DV exclusives), Combi-weapons & Power axes become 'Terminators Only', etc...

- Power creep is suddenly bad, so to re-balance everything, all pts costs go up by at least 25% across the board.
Formations are also suddenly decided to be potentially unbalanced, so CSM's will be the first book to return to using a standard CAD... However, to be fluffy and reflect the fact that Chaos Marines have little in the way of resources, they'll get a special unique CAD which they must always use, that allows for 1HQ, 0 Elites, 4-8 Troops, 1 Fast Attack, 1/2 Heavy Support. (ie: you can take Havocs, but their heavy weapons are all out of ammo!)

- Lord of Skulls becomes the default LoW choice, but taking one restricts the entire army to MoK only.

- The Helldrake now costs 300pts, drops to av10 on all facings, but the Baleflamer becomes ap2.

Loyalists will still cry foul and claim that new CSM's are OP filth, because Baledrakes can now deny saves to Gravcents!

2 weeks after new Chaos Marines release, Vanillas will get a new codex that suddenly features Tactical Squads replacing their bolters for unit-wide Grav guns, Autocannons are added as a new heavy weapon option, and two brand new units - the Holyfriend w/2x Emperos Cannons @S8/ap2/Heavy 8, and the Emprahzord w/12" move + Fleet, IWND/3++ & WS6/S10/A6 + re-rolls to hit every turn in combat, are released! Each will only cost 130pts.

How's that for curse listing?!



@HMBC: I'm sorry, I took your post to be against the idea of Legion Traits. I apologise for misunderstanding.

The sad thing? I could actually see them doing that with the Lord of Skulls.

Same with the removing options if they lacked a physical model - that's pretty much exactly what happened with Tyranids (ever wonder why Parasite, Doom and Spores disappeared?).

I mean, a lot is hyperbole but I can also see some likely impacts there...

Or there's always the chance things swing to the other extreme, and CMS have tons of St (excused by ancient tech and demon weapons), and everyone playing CSM for years will be accused of jumping on the cheese bandwagon. Yet somehow they'll still be flavorless.

I... just don't trust GW with a good update.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
(ever wonder why Parasite, Doom and Spores disappeared?).

Because Chapterhouse ripped them off. Note Spores and Doom (at least a zoanthrope leader beast) came back once GW made actual kits for them.

Heh. "Ripped them off". That's funny.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
(ever wonder why Parasite, Doom and Spores disappeared?).

The same reason why GW changed all the names of their paints and also the same reason (well, one of the reasons) why they blew up Warhammer and started giving everything really stupid names:

Chapterhouse and their love of the almighty ™ symbol.

It's one of the reasons I dislike AoS so much; the sheer cynicism of everything in it is just there because you can slap a ™ after it and call it a day. Orcs? No, no. These are Orruks™! Are these Dwarf Slayer? Not at all my friend, these are the Vulkite™ Berzerkers™ of the might Fyreslayers™.

Without derailing this too much but what CHS did was legal and GW changing the names of everything to TM-able phrases doesn't do anything the address the fact that it was a legally recognized fair use of a products name.

That said the way GW's been loving all over loyalist space marines they will probably get Legion rules before we do... Heck loyalists will probably get Chaos-loyalist legion rules before CSM get legion rules.

Something like "chapter" tactics sounds nice, but I doubt it would do much to "fix" the playability in this day and age. Most people would feel their list didnt fit with the "tactic" and get upset.
Neither would a new box of marines stop the whining unless we see a release of a plastic dreadclaw equivalent, an open topped truckk style transport, or something similar to bring up the speed of the general army.

Id love to see Mad Max style cultist transports rather than "chapter tactics" for static cc units.

The way GWs been doing bussiness this last year, I actually think a new chaos update is something to look forward to.

Anyhow, I thought this was the news and rumors forum?

 aka_mythos wrote:
That said the way GW's been loving all over loyalist space marines they will probably get Legion rules before we do... Heck loyalists will probably get Chaos-loyalist legion rules before CSM get legion rules.

Like Chapter Tactics for Cursed Founding? They could have rules for chapters founded from traitor primarch geneseed. They could even give them their own decurions and psychic powers!

Even though the sets are being removed I doubt we'll get an actual rules overhaul. We might just get some updated kits so we actually have the weapon options and that's about it, mainly because we just got the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplement updates so I don't think they will update the whole codex this soon.

They should get legion specific tactics, but I'd prefer them a tad more toned down than marine ones, and to offset this, each legion also has a specific unit also. No one wants to see the repeat of codex white scars bikers. I don't want to see Night lords models being used with iron warriors rules for example.

Heck, give them a legion specific trait, a legion specific unit and then minimise their other options and give them a disadvantage rule wise. World eaters would be easy, massive assault boosts with increased charge range, some form of uber bezerkers, then to balance, no sorcerers and they always have to move closer to the enemy when within 12 or 18". Yeah, they can probably murder that unit and get the charge off, but your opponent has just forced you to move off the objective.

Also, keep the combo's down as well in a fluffy sense. Yeah you can have a world eaters main cad with a thousand detachment, but it will cost you in other ways.

We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should get legion specific tactics, but I'd prefer them a tad more toned down than marine ones, and to offset this, each legion also has a specific unit also. No one wants to see the repeat of codex white scars bikers. I don't want to see Night lords models being used with iron warriors rules for example.

I don't know how much more "toned down" you can get than the majority of the Chapter Tactics. White Scars and Iron Hands are the weird ones out, not the rule.

Raven Guard: We get Shrouded on turn one; never mind that their unique Detachment is based upon everything being in Reserves...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.

Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?

Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.

If there are two that are superior to the rest, and they are far superior, they need to be toned down. The reason why the Raven guard one doesn't look good is because the other two are so good, that needs to be corrected in a later codex, and not repeated in the chaos codex, which should have legion traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.

Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?

Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.

I'm saying Marines need to be corrected and brought into line. As a chaos player what would you prefer, legion specific traits and then codex chapter traits etc being sorted out, or the other way round? You won't get both at the same time.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If there are two that are superior to the rest, and they are far superior, they need to be toned down. The reason why the Raven guard one doesn't look good is because the other two are so good, that needs to be corrected in a later codex, and not repeated in the chaos codex, which should have legion traits.

The reason why the Raven Guard one doesn't look good is because it isn't good.
You have three perks for Raven Guard.
1) Shrouded until the start of game turn two(not "until the start of your second turn"; game turn two); provided you did not begin the game in a Transport vehicle, and the ability to add 1 to the result for Night Fighting(so OP!).
2) Re-rolls on Hammer of Wrath for Jump Pack units.
3) Ability to use their Jump Packs in both Movement and Assault phases of the same turn.

The first perk is basically removed from you if you use the majority of infantry heavy lists that Raven Guard would excel at(which also involve transports). Hell, one of the Raven Guard specific formations(The Skyhammer that isn't as good as the Dev/AM one) removes that from you since you have to take 3x Tacticals in Drop Pods.
The second and third perks mandate you dump an extra 15 points per 5 man squad to use them--and the Raven Guard specific formations with Assault/Vanguard units? They mandate you have Jump Packs.
Add in that you cannot use Combat Doctrines(because for whatever reason, only Ultramarines, a Gladius, or Battle Demi-Company get to use them) and it becomes very irksome to play Raven Guard.

White Scars on the other hand can be toned down in one fell swoop by adding "Chapter Tactics: Dark Angels" and "Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves" to the SuperFriends choices, since you cannot mix Chapter Tactics.

I play a scout heavy Raven guard army and I find their chapter tactics works for me. The RG tactics are meant to push you towards a scout and assault marine focused army and as long as you build the rest of the army around this they work just fine. I pretty consistently beat the Ultramarines and Imperial fist armies; tie with biker armies. It's only vehicle spamming lists I struggle with but if FW is allowed in the game I can compensate pretty easily while staying fluffy. It isn't the greatest but still better than CSM.

I have my bias but I think Iron Hands are maybe the only one I think might go too far. It's only when you stack all the interaction of chapter tactics with formations and then allow allies for even more rules interactions that it gets untenable.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.

Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?

Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.

There's problem of arms race with that logic. Just because they did it badly before doesn't mean it should be done badly in new stuff. Fix the imbalance by fixing problem. Not escalating it with other armies.

Chapter tactics also have led to silly stuff like white scars being all about bikes when _they are codex chapter with tactical marines that form the real core of white scars_ in reality. White scars is NOT all about bikes in the fluff. They like bikes yes and use them more than most but at the end of the day tactical squads in rhinos still form their core units(and the rhino isn't even particulary white scar thingies. fluffwise marines as a whole tend to be all about speed and shock. Only way their small numbers allow them to feasibly work. Drop pod or bike is their de facto standard. Foot slogging is more unusual).

When was last time you saw white scar army that had more tactical marines in rhinos than bikes?

there doesn't really seem to be any rumours here, so off to 40k general we go.

All the CSM plastic kits made it back from the Eye of Terror to the GW webshop

No blue and golden armor... no evil sorcery...

Yet

Until then...

Warhams-77 wrote:
All the CSM plastic kits made it back from the Eye of Terror to the GW webshop

No blue and golden armor... no evil sorcery...

Yet

They've bounced in and out of stock a few times now...

If what some have said is true, that GW has been recalling store stocks of various Chaos stuffs, then it's also quite likely that GW has simply put that limited stock up for sale through the webstore, and it'll be listed back as "sold out" once that remaining stock is gone.
Or else they could simply be doing extremely limited production runs to drip a few sets in and out until they finally get around to overhauling the most dated & useless model line of their main factions. (note: yes, Sisters are a worse model line, but they're not an 'off the shelf' line, nor are they anywhere near as critical to the setting as freaking Chaos is!)

I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.

As of the last few Cadians, I built and painted for a pal, I would guess in the same, sorry state(horrific moulding-lines, occasionally blurred details,...).
They don`t last forever.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
All the CSM plastic kits made it back from the Eye of Terror to the GW webshop

No blue and golden armor... no evil sorcery...

Yet

They've bounced in and out of stock a few times now...

If what some have said is true, that GW has been recalling store stocks of various Chaos stuffs, then it's also quite likely that GW has simply put that limited stock up for sale through the webstore, and it'll be listed back as "sold out" once that remaining stock is gone.
Or else they could simply be doing extremely limited production runs to drip a few sets in and out until they finally get around to overhauling the most dated & useless model line of their main factions. (note: yes, Sisters are a worse model line, but they're not an 'off the shelf' line, nor are they anywhere near as critical to the setting as freaking Chaos is!)

I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.

I think this is probably the case. Assuming rumors are true I doubt the want to do another production run of old product just to restock their webstore. It's far easier to recall and sell that stock. It also means stores will have that much more room for new stock in the future.