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It might be enough to hold until they can turn around though. Maybe.

bob82ca wrote:


Why does it matter? Why is he using energy arguing about it? You know, it's thanks to all the bitchers and complainers that games workshop is releasing this book. All of the AOS fanboys have no part in this step forward and evolution of the game. And we "bitchers" are just angry gamers that wanted to play fantasy warhammer but were given a gakky game. You should be giving thanks, because the protest is what has brought about the changes.

And there has been so much propaganda and protectionism given to this crappy game. Dhaka sencoring and deleting "negative" posts about AOS. Games workshop influincing popular YouTube channels to feature the game ( and never talk badly about it). But now our voices are being heard.

We wanted points, we wanted wargear and bam we got them. Now GW needs to add more tactics to the game. Benefits for the charging unit, more "rock paper scissor" unit countering ...some or any reason to create important combats. Give the player important decisions on where to move and who to fight. Then finally clean up the bad rules a bit...ie "no you can't fire your archers in hand to hand combat". Then maybe we've got something.

But you got to fight a little so GW can hear you. Complain, troll, do anything to spread the word. THAT is how the generals handbook was born!

Entitled here aren't we?

You know, it can go the other way around.

If you are the saviour and are the reason why points are back, can't you be blamed for Fantasy failing in the first place and Age of Sigmar to happen?

*edit*

Going by the bitching part, maybe if you bittched before more proper changes could have happened before, but yet you let things slide and get out of hand. See, we can place blame as well. So do you really want to start placing blame now or at the least do you really want to start saying you have made change for the better?

Davor wrote:
can't you be blamed for Fantasy failing in the first place and Age of Sigmar to happen?

No, AoS was NOT an appropriate response to falling sales.

When sales fall you find out why and address the problem, not throw out a thirty year old game and setting.

I agree AoS is fun, but it should have been a 3rd game or something. I kind of doubt WHFB was going worse than LoTR, just saying.

Main problem I think it had that 40k has as well is the scaling, each new edition just seems to put a bigger and bigger door onto entrance. Formations kind of mitigate this for 40k by at least letting you play eaier with a smaller amount of stuff (and probably could have for whfb as well) but it feels like a bandaid solution.

To be fair GW might be either A) locked into some sort of contract and forced to stock LotR or B) holding onto the licence knowing it wont make them any money but that they also don't have to invest any more money into it, and while they hold the licence no one else can produce LotR figures to compete with WHFB/AoS.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Davor wrote:
can't you be blamed for Fantasy failing in the first place and Age of Sigmar to happen?

No, AoS was NOT an appropriate response to falling sales.

When sales fall you find out why and address the problem, not throw out a thirty year old game and setting.

I know that jonolikespie. My response was for BoB82ca. If he and his kiln were the saviours and reasons why we have points now, couldn't it be said they were the downfall of Fantasy as well? After all if he claims him and his kiln "bitching" got points back maybe if his and his kiln "bithced" more when Fantasy in 6th 7th and 8th, we would have Fantsy 9th now instead of AoS. Like I said it can go both ways. Don't claim you brought in something when you an be blamed when something failed.

What I said is just as ludicrous as what he is claiming.

Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

I always attributed the decline in 8th ed to the combination of the whacky chaos demons rules and the High Elf book back in like.. early to mid 2013?

Locally we loved 8th as a tourney game, most of the community was people who played 40k competitively and it was easy to draw them over with a tighter, less bloated, more balanced ruleset. The first half of 8th ed's lifespan was one of the most balanced GW games I have seen, but around the time of the high elves book it seemed like they decided that wasn't important and it showed in the new releases.

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy

When did GW promote anything before mid 2000's-2016?

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game

Proof please.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

So true.

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

I get all of the GW hate, I do, but what your talking about is stark raving insanity, you don't kill a successful product to create market demand, and given that it's pure conjecture I'll give GW the benefit of the doubt. Were they working on a new edition of fantasy in 2013, certainly, there is significant lead up time involved in the miniatures industry, but by 2013 fantasy was already dying. You can see it in the 2012 earnings statement, which is probably what precipitated AoS. So you can either believe they tried some marketing stunt that a grade schooler would be able to tell you wouldn't work, or you can believe sales were soft and they decided to take a risk. Also don't mistake citing low sales as blaming the consumer, if fantasy wasn't selling, it's certainly GWs fault for having an inferior product. My comments were to poke holes in the idea that Fantasy was viable before AoS, eg: "If fantasy was so good why didn't more people buy it?", the answer fantasy wasn't good so people didn't buy it. No conspiracy needed, no elaborate villainous plans by Kirby to pee in your cheerios, just a product that was in need of work and more mistakes than you can fit in a dump truck.

 CoreCommander wrote:
The sooner everyone, doing the same thing, realize that this take from their REAL hobby time, the better.

For some people like hobojesus the hobby IS raging on about how GW is the great satan, and if they can turn one person away from GW, its worth their time.

The Ignore-button helps some, but it quickly becomes a jumbled mess to read a thread like this, which turns people off from participating and drift off to somewhere more uplifting. Bad for Dakka and AoS, but a win for the trolls. And so it continues...

Sounds like what warseer was.

Spiky Norman wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:
The sooner everyone, doing the same thing, realize that this take from their REAL hobby time, the better.

For some people like hobojesus the hobby IS raging on about how GW is the great satan, and if they can turn one person away from GW, its worth their time.

The Ignore-button helps some, but it quickly becomes a jumbled mess to read a thread like this, which turns people off from participating and drift off to somewhere more uplifting. Bad for Dakka and AoS, but a win for the trolls. And so it continues...

It's a hobby not the hobby.

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

Where in the world did you go to business school? Where ever it was get a refund....

 auticus wrote:
Sounds like what warseer was.

I'm still sadly seeing the ignore list folk in quote boxes since so many attempt to respond and reason with them, ha. Or maybe they are soon to be giving up trying.

Sadly, yes, some threads since the GHB was announced have devolved to the lowest form...Warseer-like. Gah, even trying to pop in and see if anything has remotely changed there...

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

Where in the world did you go to business school? Where ever it was get a refund....

So you are of the opinion gw is a well run company, y'know given that they are shrinking while the wargaming market market is growing.

 jonolikespie wrote:
To be fair GW might be either A) locked into some sort of contract and forced to stock LotR or B) holding onto the licence knowing it wont make them any money but that they also don't have to invest any more money into it, and while they hold the licence no one else can produce LotR figures to compete with WHFB/AoS.

Sorry to butt in, but that's crap. LotR still has a big following and a large fan base. They just re-did the contract for four years and have already put out previews of the next set of releases and supplement. They're certainly not forced to stock it, they're doing it because they know it sells well and has excellent support from the community.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
To be fair GW might be either A) locked into some sort of contract and forced to stock LotR or B) holding onto the licence knowing it wont make them any money but that they also don't have to invest any more money into it, and while they hold the licence no one else can produce LotR figures to compete with WHFB/AoS.

Sorry to butt in, but that's crap. LotR still has a big following and a large fan base. They just re-did the contract for four years and have already put out previews of the next set of releases and supplement. They're certainly not forced to stock it, they're doing it because they know it sells well and has excellent support from the community.

Um... I would not be surprised at all to hear it has a loyal fanbase, but a big one? Absolutely not. At least not online or here in Australia. I picked up a bunch of models like a year or two back to use for D&D and the GW employee joked that the head office would think he was scamming them somehow because he actually sold $200 worth of LotR stock.

Then there was the Hobbit fiasco, where they never sold out of the limited run box sets, and released what, 2 boxes and 4 blisters for the second movie and nothing for the 3rd? They clearly dropped all support for it except what they already had nearing the end of the pipepline after the first movie.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
To be fair GW might be either A) locked into some sort of contract and forced to stock LotR or B) holding onto the licence knowing it wont make them any money but that they also don't have to invest any more money into it, and while they hold the licence no one else can produce LotR figures to compete with WHFB/AoS.

Sorry to butt in, but that's crap. LotR still has a big following and a large fan base. They just re-did the contract for four years and have already put out previews of the next set of releases and supplement. They're certainly not forced to stock it, they're doing it because they know it sells well and has excellent support from the community.

Um... I would not be surprised at all to hear it has a loyal fanbase, but a big one? Absolutely not. At least not online or here in Australia. I picked up a bunch of models like a year or two back to use for D&D and the GW employee joked that the head office would think he was scamming them somehow because he actually sold $200 worth of LotR stock.

Then there was the Hobbit fiasco, where they never sold out of the limited run box sets, and released what, 2 boxes and 4 blisters for the second movie and nothing for the 3rd? They clearly dropped all support for it except what they already had nearing the end of the pipepline after the first movie.

Sorry, but yes a large one. I suggest you look at the Throne of Skulls which had it's largest attendance through the SBG since Warhammer World re-opened. In fact it was so popular they had to increase capacity twice because it sold out so fast. Not to mention Nova Open from both last year and this year. Both have record numbers of attendees hitting the triple figures.

hobojebus wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

Where in the world did you go to business school? Where ever it was get a refund....

So you are of the opinion gw is a well run company, y'know given that they are shrinking while the wargaming market market is growing.

That's not the counter position from yours.
Snoop is probably referencing your claim that GW intentionally nosedived WFB.
Which is patently ridiculous, but obviously fits with your continuing narrative that GW is run by idiots who don't know what they're doing.
Your comment about GW shrinking while the market was growing is also further evidence that you know the words but don't understand the implications.
So yeah, get that refund.

hobojebus wrote:

Spiky Norman wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:
The sooner everyone, doing the same thing, realize that this take from their REAL hobby time, the better.

For some people like hobojesus the hobby IS raging on about how GW is the great satan, and if they can turn one person away from GW, its worth their time.

The Ignore-button helps some, but it quickly becomes a jumbled mess to read a thread like this, which turns people off from participating and drift off to somewhere more uplifting. Bad for Dakka and AoS, but a win for the trolls. And so it continues...

It's a hobby not the hobby.

Then could you take your hobby of raging against GW and trying to turn people away from their games, to someplace else?
Maybe another forum, maybe your own blog or whatever. Poisoning the well here is hurting these forums.

RoperPG wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gw stopped promoting fantasy when it decided to make AoS which was around 2013 when it was the third best selling mini game.

Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

Where in the world did you go to business school? Where ever it was get a refund....

So you are of the opinion gw is a well run company, y'know given that they are shrinking while the wargaming market market is growing.

That's not the counter position from yours.
Snoop is probably referencing your claim that GW intentionally nosedived WFB.
Which is patently ridiculous, but obviously fits with your continuing narrative that GW is run by idiots who don't know what they're doing.
Your comment about GW shrinking while the market was growing is also further evidence that you know the words but don't understand the implications.
So yeah, get that refund.

So instead of actually addressing the argument your just attacking me, ad hominem attacks don't go anywhere.

The company is struggling in a period where the sector it operates in has grown 20%, that's clear incompetence.

Instead of doing customer surveys and market research they just release what they think will sell, that's clear incompetence.

In the social media age they closed their own forums, when they made a face book page they demand only positive feedback, that's laughably incompetent.

And even knowing price is the number one thing killing sales they won't let their CEO drop prices.

Anyway you cut it GW is not a well run company.

Ad hominem? Again, using words you don't understand. Get a refund on your debating club, too.
1) The market for Wargames has grown because of other offerings on the market. A shrinking company in that environment does not denote incompetence. But to understand why requires nuance, which I'm pretty sure by now you won't allow yourself to see.
2) Not doing market research is not incompetence. Apple under Steve Jobs were renowned for not using market research, except people WHO HAD ALREADY BOUGHT APPLE PRODUCTS. So yeah, not incompetence.
3)They closed down forums and social media presence because - largely - it became toxic. That's worse than nothing at all.
And if you think that any other company doesn't police/moderate its' social media, you're incredibly naive.
4) Really? Definitely price killing sales? They know? Or you say?

Still, it's good to know that 'incompetent' was in your word of the week toilet paper. Can't wait to see what you've got for us next week.

hobojebus wrote:
Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

I don't think go 'wanted' anything to decline. Gw is reactive. If fantasy had been selling, general would have supported it. The interest, and the money that backed up the interest wasn't forthcoming. Gw certainly played a big role in how the game declined, but they don't bear all the responsibility. the decline was already happening, had been happening for years, and gw saw no way forward with what they had. Fantasy had fans, but the fans weren't buying, and a lot of them weren't playing either. The time to save fantasy was ten years ago. Ultimately what they did was clinical, ruthless and entirely about keeping an eye on the bottom line, from a corporate point of view, they weren't exactly wrong for doing what they did, as much as it sucks from a wfb fans point of view.

I don't think it's 'blaming' the customers as such, but rather being honest and admitting that the players of fantasy themselves had a part to play (or rather, a part they didn't play) in the decline and fall of fantasy. It's dishonest to hand wave away and and all personally responsibility and heap the blame on 'someone else'.

hobojebus wrote:

So you are of the opinion gw is a well run company, y'know given that they are shrinking while the wargaming market market is growing.

They're no better or worse than any other company, generall speaking. Most corporations are slow to change, relatively static and dogmatic etc. As to them shrinking - bear in mind there are other ways of Looking st it. Gw want to be a 'high end' producer, rather than 'mass market' and would rather sell less for more. Thry want to cater to a Smaller affluent customer base, that's easier to please. Selling lots of stuff to lots of people isn't the only way of doing things. I often compare it to my dad. My dad has run his own business for 35 years. He's good at it. And for years he expanded. And got to the point where he had quite a few people working for him part time at the busy parts of the year, and lots of sales. Also lots of costs, and red tape and regulation by extension. And he was getting older, and I wasn't going to follow him into it. What do he do? He cut back. He started selling less and less. His sales went down. His costs went down, turns out that as a one man band he was coming out of it with a relatively decent result, for a lot less of the hassle, and a lot less of the costs that he had when he was a bigger operation, selling more stuff to more people. He wasn't wrong in doing what he did. Then of course the recession hit and the only reason he was able to stay in business was that he had cut back in the supposed 'good' times. Post is though, selling less isn't a bad call. As they say, 80% of your sales come from 20% of your customers. One or two high end customers often nets you far more at the end of the day and fifty nickel and dime customers. And this is the route gw are going down,

hobojebus wrote:
So instead of actually addressing the argument your just attacking me, ad hominem attacks don't go anywhere.

There were no arguments hobo - just like your usual bile, like how you previously gave out that gw was out of touch with kids because they're atheist and gw use Christian mythology as some of their inspiration. It just seems that whatever they do, you will jump through any amount of mental gymnastics in order to turn in into s bad thing, because it has to be all of the hate, all of the time, turned to 11.

hobojebus wrote:
The company is struggling in a period where the sector it operates in has grown 20%, that's clear incompetence.

No it's not.
The market has grown because there is more stuff there. It's not that every company is growing by 20% and gw isn't. Board games are probably the biggest part of that. Miniature wargaming is pretty tiny fare compared to everything else - the margins aren't that great. The fact that gw have gotten to the state they are at shows that they have plenty competencies at a lot of the corporate aspects of the gsme at the very least.
They were going down a bad road with a bad ending up to a few years ago, but there have been some more positive changes recently. 'Struggling' is a harsh word - they're still the 600lb gorilla in the room, and operate on a scale that all of their competitors can only dream of. Incidentally, I know anecdotally of enough 'behind the scenes' chat from several other notable wargames companies to know that quite a few of them lean towards 'incompetence' in how they operate as well. Heck, this is an industry where a lot of companies have to rely on what amounts to charity - volunteer play testers - in order to quality control their product. Gw turn over in a day what a lot of these other companies then over in a quarter. Remember that.

hobojebus wrote:
Instead of doing customer surveys and market research they just release what they think will sell, that's clear incompetence.

No, not necessarily. Personally, I think it's foolish to ignore it completely, and I think while gw probably get plenty relevant data from sales, their interpretation of it can be off, but being fair, on the other side of the coin. Sometimes a lot of those surveys and research ends up being producing massive white noise to signal ratios, or costs too much for what it returns.

hobojebus wrote:
In the social media age they closed their own forums, when they made a face book page they demand only positive feedback, that's laughably incompetent.

No.i actually remember the forums. they were terrible. They were hostile, rude and incredibly toxic, like most wargamers. Considering some of the incredibly nasty, spiteful, malicious and passive aggressive nastiness that has been directed towards individuals of that company, who were only doing their jobs, and aren't movers or shakers in the company (so basically, they get all the bile directed at them, despite never being the ones who are actually driving the decision making processes)- I'm not surprised they said 'screw this' and killed it. They did not want to be dealing with nasty hypercritical detail obsessed toxic fans that obsess over minutes. I'd feel the same way in their shoes, frankly. Sometimes it's better to just shut the door.

hobojebus wrote:
And even knowing price is the number one thing killing sales they won't let their CEO drop prices.

People still pay it. As far as they're concerned, the bottom line is ok, thr right people are buying their products and everybody else does not concern them.

hobojebus wrote:
Anyway you cut it GW is not a well run company.

No worse than anyone else to be fair. There is a lot more involved in running a worldwide company of 2,000 people than you realise, and for everything that they do wrong (which lots of other companies do too!), they're still there, making money's for their investors and models for their fans. I've seen those cries of 'gw is going to the wall!' For fifteen years now, and they were there before me. They're still there. If they were as bad or as terribly run as you so want to believe they are, they would not be here now.

Deadnight wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gw wanted fantasy to decline so there'd be a hunger for a new game instead it backfired in spectacular fashion.

People who blame the customers are just sad, accept gw isn't perfect.

I don't think go 'wanted' anything to decline. Gw is reactive. If fantasy had been selling, general would have supported it. The interest, and the money that backed up the interest wasn't forthcoming. Gw certainly played a big role in how the game declined, but they don't bear all the responsibility. the decline was already happening, had been happening for years, and gw saw no way forward with what they had. Fantasy had fans, but the fans weren't buying, and a lot of them weren't playing either. The time to save fantasy was ten years ago. Ultimately what they did was clinical, ruthless and entirely about keeping an eye on the bottom line, from a corporate point of view, they weren't exactly wrong for doing what they did, as much as it sucks from a wfb fans point of view.

I don't think it's 'blaming' the customers as such, but rather being honest and admitting that the players of fantasy themselves had a part to play (or rather, a part they didn't play) in the decline and fall of fantasy. It's dishonest to hand wave away and and all personally responsibility and heap the blame on 'someone else'.

What are you talking about here? Blaming the customer you are. People were not buying because GW didn't make a good rule set. People were not buying because there was too much imbalance in the game. People were not buying because there was no real support for the game, quick and timely FAQs that people actually asked and not put out FAQs that nobody seemed to ask and not address the questions people needed. People were not buying because of price hikes all the time, AND newbies like me didn't start because the buy in was too high.

So who is at fault?

What is next you are going to say, it's the girls fault for being raped because she wore her dress a bit to high? You are clearly blaming the victim here.

No because of GW decisions people stopped buying. Stop blaming the people for lack of sales. People or I should say CONSUMERS don't buy when they don't support the practice of what is happening or not liking the product being delivered.

So it is peoples fault for not buying when the rules are not clear and concise?
It's the peoples fault when a product is too expensive?
It's the peoples fault when the buy in is too expensive.
It's the peoples fault for imbalance in the rules and codices and warbooks/scrolls what ever they were called in Fantasy.
It's the peoples fault when there is no support in the game.

Ok, so it's my fault Fantasy died. It was my fault that I saw just like in 40K how codices are imbalanced and don't get updated. I can buy an army and might have to wait over 10 years to get the rules updated. It is my fault the buy in I didn't want to pay just to have a few games. It's my fault that GW can't write and don't know how to proof read and edit their books.

Yes it's my fault that Fantasy died.

No it's not my fault, your fault or anyone else fault. Games-Workshop is to blame and blame alone for the DECISIONS they decided to make for Fantasy and 40K for the less sales they are getting.

RoperPG wrote:
2) Not doing market research is not incompetence. Apple under Steve Jobs were renowned for not using market research, except people WHO HAD ALREADY BOUGHT APPLE PRODUCTS. So yeah, not incompetence.

Kirby seemed to love to compare himself to Steve Jobs. There is a pretty big difference between them though, Apple was growing at the time while GW's fallen pretty far from what it was.

 jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
2) Not doing market research is not incompetence. Apple under Steve Jobs were renowned for not using market research, except people WHO HAD ALREADY BOUGHT APPLE PRODUCTS. So yeah, not incompetence.

Kirby seemed to love to compare himself to Steve Jobs. There is a pretty big difference between them though, Apple was growing at the time while GW's fallen pretty far from what it was.

Yeah, but that still doesn't support Hobo's false equivalence - which was the whole point of the example. I'm not going to derail into what I think of Apple!

Ok, not doing market research doesn't make GW incompetent, but under Kirby GW were incompetent and refusted to do market research.

Well GW Arnt Apple no matter how much they wish they were.

And I'm sure with t he recent 23% drop Apple's going to be doing market research to find out why.

Look I used to be a fanboy to I get it, but you can like something without having to declare everything is awesome.

GW is not a well run company it's a laughing stock across the net, roundtree got handed a sinking ship and has a damn hard time ahead of him to avoid the fast approaching cliff he faces.

hobojebus wrote:
Well GW Arnt Apple no matter how much they wish they were.

And I'm sure with t he recent 23% drop Apple's going to be doing market research to find out why.

Look I used to be a fanboy to I get it, but you can like something without having to declare everything is awesome.

GW is not a well run company it's a laughing stock across the net, roundtree got handed a sinking ship and has a damn hard time ahead of him to avoid the fast approaching cliff he faces.

Wait, are you a Poe's law bot or something?