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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 01:58:13
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Flashy Flashgitz
Armageddon
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I feel like its a major fluff and gameplay fail that you can't assault after deep striking with jump infantry. So what, my stormboyz just fly in screaming WAAAAGH shooting their guns only to land a few feet in front of the space marines and let them gun them down for a turn? What the hell?
There should be a payoff as it could be devastating to teleport in anywhere and instantly get locked in combat, but as it stands its worthless. Why is it ok for a drop pod full of meltagun sternguard to deep strike behind something and incinerate it in one turn, but melee unit's can't do garbage?
Shooting is clearly the stronger option in this current meta. When was the last time you saw jump pack marines?
Shouldn't overwatch theoretically balance this? I was thinking making it a disordered charge as well if you deep strike and then assault.
Anyone else try any house rules for this?
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"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 06:09:01
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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over watch would not balance it because over-watch is a joke.
I agree deepstrikers should fire their guns as snapshots but being able to assult form deepstrike ( no matter the penalty ) is going to be broken. There would need to be several things to balance out if you could.
Winning in melee by 1 wound can instantly kill the whole unit. ( unless sauce marines of course ... )
When in combat you are immune to shooting units. So the shooting units just stand there .
It wouldn't matter if the charge was disordered. The units you are going to assault form deepstrike are going to have low attacks, terrible initiative and poor weapon-skill.
The only defense would be bubble wrapping units and then your basically paying a HUGE tax on each unit to protect that do 1 thing well and another unit to baby sit and maybe if your lucky contribute in a small way
5th edition sucked badly with this, its almost a auto lose for shooting armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 09:29:57
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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@OP: Assaulting on the same turn a unit arrives by Deep Strike is incredibly powerful to the point where it's broken (even though I think it could make sense to be a thing).
The problem with Deep Striking purely melee units (e.g. a Terminator Assault Squad), is that they generally aren't survivable enough to survive the enemy's next shooting phase, which means you need to employ a high skill level form of tactics to employ a melee unit that arrives by DS.
So as much as it pains me to say this (because I have to follow my own advice as well as it being a less-than-ideal solution), the only solution to this is:
Get better at strategically using these sorts of units. It's the only way to make them viable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 12:04:08
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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One of the principal benefits of combat is that you can lock enemy units down. The enemy can't do anything except fight you hand to hand until they die or break (or vice versa)
Allowing a player to choose exactly who he's going to be fighting with his assault units and giving his opponent no chance to deny him that is bad form from a games design perspective.
If you allowed a reaction to deep strike assault (stand and shoot, flee, countercharge) then it might be ok because the other player now has options. He sees the drop troops coming and can let you have that position/objective or deny you it by countercharging with nearby units, in your assault phase.
This is yet another argument for Pancake edition's move-assault-shoot turn order with shared phases.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 12:17:43
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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Didn't this used to be a thing Blood Angels back in 5th? There wasn't any overwatch back then. That being said... BA smashed face.
Currently, Marines have the Skyhammer Annihilation Force for this. No doubt Orks will get a similar Stormboy formation at some point (actually knowing their luck.. probably not)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 18:49:51
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Horrific Howling Banshee
Charleston, South Carolina
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Certain units can gain this ability for free anyway. Being able to shoot, assault with impact attacks and bonus charge attacks with the only deterrence being over watch is a joke. I think assault should be easier to pull off, but less devastating. I think move, shoot, assault move, impact hits and melee attacks is way too much to do in one turn. With any charge, the advantage is with the defender.
Over watch should be BS -1 perhaps.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/25 01:44:01
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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It makes sense in the fluff, but then again if everything in fluff was related to crunch, marines would all be have captain stat lines. There really isn't a way to balance this, even with something like better overwatch you could still table an entire guard army in a turn if you wanted to. (Maybe some exaggeration) The closest thing to fair imo is probably full bs overwatch and disordered charge (so its not so abused) because they saw the enemy coming blah blah blah.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 01:44:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/25 13:43:12
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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I think that melee in general requires a major overhaul; the prevalence of frag grenades makes defensive terrain meaningless, except against the few units that lack them (many of which are supposed to be dedicated melee units, which makes no sense). Shooting in general is just much stronger, which means that all melee units, not just ones with Deep Strike, struggle to reach combat without being shot to pieces.
If defensive terrain were made meaningful again, maybe Overwatch made a little stronger (e.g- half BS, BS -2 or something) then we could also make charging a lot easier, for example having charges from vehicles count as disordered without assault vehicle, rather than being impossible, likewise for disordered charges from Deep Strike, Outflank and the like. Allow Run + Charge if you're willing to forego shooting and so-on.
The way things are now though charging from Deep Strike would be too powerful, except perhaps for units paying for the privilege; even so, while terminators for example are overpriced right now, I'm not sure if the price would be enough to justify Deep Strike charges, so that'd mean Codex changes, upgrade items, relics/special characters etc. adding this ability, which is a nontrivial change.
But yeah, with a wider redesign of melee it could work, but not this edition I think.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 13:45:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/26 04:23:22
Subject: Re:Deep strike and assaulting.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I agree that fluff wise deep striking jump units ought to be able to charge during their assault phase, but that kinda breaks the Skyhammer formation. As to making Deep Striking units snap shots, that kind of defeats the purpose of deep striking, doesn't it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/26 06:21:49
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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In order to balance deep strike assault (and keep things reasonable with fluff) it may be:
- ds units can charge only if they dont scatter ( representing a landing without problems and just where you planned to land)
- charge distance is 1d6 instead of 2d6 (you need more time to get ready to fight out of teleporting or landing from the skie)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/26 07:14:01
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The Deer Hunter wrote:
- charge distance is 1d6 instead of 2d6 (you need more time to get ready to fight out of teleporting or landing from the skie)
You need to consider how many units can DS and land where they want them to land , or have abilities that prevent mishaps from landing on the unit they are going to assault after ds and just have to move a inch or two ( which is every space marince dex at the least )
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/26 09:03:26
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Foxy Wildborne
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Considering that shooting is 4-5 times as powerful as it was in 3rd or 4th while assault is much weaker, I really don't know what you're all afraid of. Losing a shooting unit with no way to react? Par for the course for assault units. Back in my day we had first turn charges and consolidating into new combats and actually meaningful LOS restrictions and brainless gunlines still did okay.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 09:04:17
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/26 23:16:29
Subject: Deep strike and assaulting.
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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lord_blackfang wrote:Considering that shooting is 4-5 times as powerful as it was in 3rd or 4th while assault is much weaker, I really don't know what you're all afraid of. Losing a shooting unit with no way to react? Par for the course for assault units. Back in my day we had first turn charges and consolidating into new combats and actually meaningful LOS restrictions and brainless gunlines still did okay.
Not when 30 Death Company hit their lines
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