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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Are you saying Israel wasn't recreated as a country after a couple thousand years and Jews havn't been returning?

Relapse wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Are you saying Israel wasn't recreated as a country after a couple thousand years and Jews havn't been returning?

I'm saying it did not happen in a day.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Or rather it certainly didn't happen in the way supposedly predicted in the Bible. It only works in hindsight (making it a postdiction instead of a prediction) when words are changed to mean something else entirely and a good dose of artistic freedom is applied.

As prophesies go it is pretty paltry.

This is kinda how I can write an entire fictional newspaper that will be mostly correct every single day for the rest of Humanity.

Even if we don't agree, the fact is, it's reformation was prophesied, and there it is today.

Relapse wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Or rather it certainly didn't happen in the way supposedly predicted in the Bible. It only works in hindsight (making it a postdiction instead of a prediction) when words are changed to mean something else entirely and a good dose of artistic freedom is applied.

As prophesies go it is pretty paltry.

This is kinda how I can write an entire fictional newspaper that will be mostly correct every single day for the rest of Humanity.

Even if we don't agree, the fact is, it's reformation was prophesied, and there it is today.

When the disagreement is on what the so-called "prophecy" was supposed to be in the first place, your "fact" is not so rock-solid as you seem to believe.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Or rather it certainly didn't happen in the way supposedly predicted in the Bible. It only works in hindsight (making it a postdiction instead of a prediction) when words are changed to mean something else entirely and a good dose of artistic freedom is applied.

As prophesies go it is pretty paltry.

This is kinda how I can write an entire fictional newspaper that will be mostly correct every single day for the rest of Humanity.

Even if we don't agree, the fact is, it's reformation was prophesied, and there it is today.

When the disagreement is on what the so-called "prophecy" was supposed to be in the first place, your "fact" is not so rock-solid as you seem to believe.

It's actually quite more solid than you give it credit, and there are other Biblical Prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel.
I can see we are getting into a , "no it isn't, yes it is loop" that will go nowhere. I respect your view, but don't agree, and leave it at that.

Relapse wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

No. No it didn't. You're now in "denying historical facts"-territory.

Or rather it certainly didn't happen in the way supposedly predicted in the Bible. It only works in hindsight (making it a postdiction instead of a prediction) when words are changed to mean something else entirely and a good dose of artistic freedom is applied.

As prophesies go it is pretty paltry.

This is kinda how I can write an entire fictional newspaper that will be mostly correct every single day for the rest of Humanity.

Even if we don't agree, the fact is, it's reformation was prophesied, and there it is today.

The reformation was predicted to happen in a certain way.
The reformation did not happen in that way.
The prediction was wrong (or unfulfilled).

QED

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

Doesn't matter if it was done to fulfill it or not. It happened.

That's very interesting, but I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, so if this report is accurate I'm bizarrely both saddened and gladdened by the news.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's very interesting, but I wonder how many British people believe modern Israel was created in a day in order to fulfil a supposed ancient prophecy in the Bible.

From my admittedly small sample size of "british people I personally know," that woulld be none. And I suspect that of any that doe believe that.... most of them can be found either in the mental wards, or wherever your tinfoil hat population tends to live (Caravans, maybe?)

Relapse wrote:


I can see we are getting into a , "no it isn't, yes it is loop" that will go nowhere.

We can all see who is bringing us into that loop.

One side is presenting coherent arguments while the other side is going; "lalalalalala I can't hear you. I am just going to repeat my dis-proven assertions so I can protect my irrational religious beliefs".

Steelmage99 wrote:

Relapse wrote:


I can see we are getting into a , "no it isn't, yes it is loop" that will go nowhere.

We can all see who is bringing us into that loop.

One side is presenting coherent arguments while the other side is going; "lalalalalala I can't hear you. I am just going to repeat my dis-proven assertions so I can protect my irrational religious beliefs".

Perhaps the prophesy was not fulfilled, but that does not mean it won't be in the future.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Relapse wrote:


I can see we are getting into a , "no it isn't, yes it is loop" that will go nowhere.

We can all see who is bringing us into that loop.

One side is presenting coherent arguments while the other side is going; "lalalalalala I can't hear you. I am just going to repeat my dis-proven assertions so I can protect my irrational religious beliefs".

Perhaps the prophesy was not fulfilled, but that does not mean it won't be in the future.

Yes, that is indeed the very case of intellectual charity I have demonstrated throughout this discussion. I have consistently been careful in saying unfulfilled or wrong when addressing the supposed prediction.
Just look back through my posts.

It won't save Relapse bare-faced assertion, as it claims that it has been fulfilled by the formation and acknowledgement by the UN of the state of Israel.

Hey guys as interesting as the formation of modern day Israel is as a subject topic, I really don't see how it relates to the topic of this thread.

Relapse wrote:


Adam and Eve, by their actions, brought mortality into the world. Christ, by dying and being ressurected ensured all would be ressurected whether they are good, bad, or indifferent. Aside from that, we are not held accountable except for our own actions.

Actions that are preordained and all part of God's plan, supposedly.... Which makes being held accountable for them pretty much the greatest example of douchebaggery imaginable.

 insaniak wrote:

Relapse wrote:


Adam and Eve, by their actions, brought mortality into the world. Christ, by dying and being ressurected ensured all would be ressurected whether they are good, bad, or indifferent. Aside from that, we are not held accountable except for our own actions.

Actions that are preordained and all part of God's plan, supposedly.... Which makes being held accountable for them pretty much the greatest example of douchebaggery imaginable.

Nothing is preordained, if by that you mean people's free choice means nothing. Consequences for actions performed through free will are, though. The actions themselves are the choice of the individual.

Can we change the thread title to "Relapse's sect's strong beliefs and prophecies" or "opinions based on interpretations presented as historical, global facts"?

Or we could go back on topic and be less about (elements of one part of) Christian prophecy* and Israel.

 Ahtman wrote:
Can we change the thread title to "Relapse's sect's strong beliefs and prophecies" or "opinions based on interpretations presented as historical, global facts"?

Or we could go back on topic and be less about (elements of one part of) Christian prophecy* and Israel.

Agreed. Get a room funboys and take it offline. Posts are being made about people's serious religious beliefs. Whether or not we agree it is not appropriate for neither this thread not this forum. It also has nothing to do with scones and bacon. Seriously

What does Jerusalem er bacon mean to you?
Nothing...everything!

 Ahtman wrote:
Can we change the thread title to "Relapse's sect's strong beliefs and prophecies" or "opinions based on interpretations presented as historical, global facts"?

Or we could go back on topic and be less about (elements of one part of) Christian prophecy* and Israel.

Fair enough.

Relapse wrote:

Nothing is preordained, if by that you mean people's free choice means nothing. Consequences for actions performed through free will are, though. The actions themselves are the choice of the individual.

This philosophy is not consistent with the acceptance of prophecy as actually meaning anything. You can't have accurate prophecy and free will both at the same time.

To tie this back to the actual topic, this is a very large part of the reason I turned away from religion... It's just too contradictory, and those contradictions make the whole thing fall apart.

I wonder if overall prosperity in the west combined with technological improvement has pushed down religious tendency while religious fundamentalism has seemed to prosper in areas where there is less prosperity and stability? Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. Is there a comparable study of Asian or African trends? I would guess more prosperous nations in the regions also trend less religious.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Russia tried that. China too. It led to millions of deaths. The simple truth is people will kill in the name of non-religion just as easily as they do in the name of religion. Religion is merely an justification that is used for killing each other (the real reasons for war are often in economical, political or cultural differences). If religion was somehow taken away people would not be killing each other any less, they'd just come up with a different justification.

If you take away murderous ideology, people will just make new murderous ideology? What new justification for killing poeple did Japan come up with?

I'm not defending communism, responsible for millions of deaths. Truly inhuman. And I'm certainly not defending books that explain how to punish people to death for crimes that doesn't exist or any similar nonsense.

Because some non-religious ideology is inhuman, is that in any way excuse for inhuman religious ideology? Advancements in secular ethics and reason the past centuries at the cost of religious dogma make no difference?

Anyone today could come up with a superior moral than what is found in religious books thousands of years ago. Easily.

 jmurph wrote:
Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. .

Ironically enough, yes, at least according to the Bible...

 insaniak wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Nothing is preordained, if by that you mean people's free choice means nothing. Consequences for actions performed through free will are, though. The actions themselves are the choice of the individual.

This philosophy is not consistent with the acceptance of prophecy as actually meaning anything. You can't have accurate prophecy and free will both at the same time.

To tie this back to the actual topic, this is a very large part of the reason I turned away from religion... It's just too contradictory, and those contradictions make the whole thing fall apart.

If you want, we can carry this on in PM so I can better clarify what I have said.

 jmurph wrote:
I wonder if overall prosperity in the west combined with technological improvement has pushed down religious tendency while religious fundamentalism has seemed to prosper in areas where there is less prosperity and stability? Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. Is there a comparable study of Asian or African trends? I would guess more prosperous nations in the regions also trend less religious.

Im not sure about Asiatic countries, but just last week, when discussing the spread of certain forms of Christianity, a stat regarding the religion of Africans kind of stood out... Some 60 or 70% of Africa's Christians are Pentacostal, and account for a huge proportion of the global pentacostal population.



I think I would agree with your statement more if you had said "prosperity and/or stability" .... States like Louisiana are definitely stable, and yet, contrary to constitutional rulings are still teaching Creationism in schools as a valid science. And I think if we were to pull up demographics and religiosity stats for the US, we'd see the general trend of poorer states having a higher level of religious practice/fervor.

On the importance of Israel to Christian prophecy... note all the end times predictions that occurred between the end of the old Israel and formation of the new one. Clearly having Israel reformed wasn't important to all those other prophecies... but now that there's a new Israel it becomes an important part of the prophecy.

This is how prophecies work, world events happen, and then people retro-fit them back in to their prophecies. Find me a prophecy where people were saying things are going to happen, and then those things actually happen, and then you'll be on to something.

 jmurph wrote:
I wonder if overall prosperity in the west combined with technological improvement has pushed down religious tendency while religious fundamentalism has seemed to prosper in areas where there is less prosperity and stability? Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. Is there a comparable study of Asian or African trends? I would guess more prosperous nations in the regions also trend less religious.

Religious belief is lower in people with higher educational attainment.

The west is generally better educated than Africa, due to greater prosperity. As Africa gradually becomes more prosperous, presumably there will be more education and religious belief will decline.

 jmurph wrote:
I wonder if overall prosperity in the west combined with technological improvement has pushed down religious tendency while religious fundamentalism has seemed to prosper in areas where there is less prosperity and stability? Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. Is there a comparable study of Asian or African trends? I would guess more prosperous nations in the regions also trend less religious.

There have been studies that support this, they have been referenced in books on the subject of atheism and religion. (I don't have any sources to hand, but they are out there somewhere).

 Baragash wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
I wonder if overall prosperity in the west combined with technological improvement has pushed down religious tendency while religious fundamentalism has seemed to prosper in areas where there is less prosperity and stability? Perhaps their is a correlation with prosperity. Is there a comparable study of Asian or African trends? I would guess more prosperous nations in the regions also trend less religious.

There have been studies that support this, they have been referenced in books on the subject of atheism and religion. (I don't have any sources to hand, but they are out there somewhere).

There definitely is a connection. In Russia (which had been very much areligious in Soviet times) the collapse of the Soviet Union also destroyed prosperity and stability. This led to a huge increase of poverty and a huge revival of religion with it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
(which had been very much areligious in Soviet times)

The state was areligious, the people are a different story. If you put a gun to someone's head and tell them they to say they are an atheist that won't actually make them an atheist. It wasn't like the Soviet Union collapsed and suddenly people converted.

Isn't it funny how countries with a more educated populace are less religious?