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See I think one of the big sticking points for a lot of people regarding the lore, wasn't just that it was a break and not what they expected. But that it involved established characters suddenly becoming Gods and doing things we don't expect of them.

Nobody bats an eyelash about the idea of Khaine fighting Slannesh in 40k lore at the Doom. Indeed if you read the Chaos demons books, the Gods are very much personalised and have this mythological setting. I mean in the 40k codex Nurgle became overcome with "love" for the Eldar healing goddess and so now keeps her in a cage in his room to test diseases on her. So yeah, pretty out there. Now, I really do think that if you said, Khaine or Isha found Slannesh and captured him. Yeah, I could probably see that story being told and you could justify the shift in focus to the Gods and away from normal kingdoms. But, instead you tell me that Tyrion and Teclis found Slannesh. At which stage most people will cry foul and say that's ridiculous. Even though, functionally they are Gods and this is repeatedly emphasised and explained; people simply just don't see any of them as being truly Gods.

The same goes for Sigmar creating the universe. Although Sigmar is a God Emperor type figure he was very personalised and more grounded. So to leap up and call him an all father figure is a huge leap in what our expectations were for that character.

I think it did make a big difference and although it would be a problem with continuity and familiarity. People have a serious issue with the notion of a mortal being raised to that level of godhood. So they probably should have just introduced, I don't know, this new nature goddess character; instead of saying it is Alarielle for example.

I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

You nailed it right on the head sir!

 JamesY wrote:
I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

I think they wanted some familiar faces for us to attach to. So, Allarielle pining after the Old World is meant to encourage us to be sympathetic towards her. Or, they thought that the dynamic of those characters were so good and liked that making them gods would crossover really well. Malekith and Morathi, It does seem to have been the Elves and Undead for some reason.

But whats the point of Manfred or Nefereta without Sylvannia or Khemri?

But yeah, theres a few for which it makes no sense. I mean I was reading up on Valkia's backstory and so much of what makes that character her is what happened in the Old World that its impossible to simply transplant her in another world and not feel a disconnection. Its not like Skarbrand where he was already rooted in the demonic realms what happened to him.

TBH I think most of the negativity centres almost entirely around Sigmar and the Stormcast.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

I think they wanted some familiar faces for us to attach to. So, Allarielle pining after the Old World is meant to encourage us to be sympathetic towards her. Or, they thought that the dynamic of those characters were so good and liked that making them gods would crossover really well. Malekith and Morathi, It does seem to have been the Elves and Undead for some reason.

But whats the point of Manfred or Nefereta without Sylvannia or Khemri?

But yeah, theres a few for which it makes no sense. I mean I was reading up on Valkia's backstory and so much of what makes that character her is what happened in the Old World that its impossible to simply transplant her in another world and not feel a disconnection. Its not like Skarbrand where he was already rooted in the demonic realms what happened to him.

TBH I think most of the negativity centres almost entirely around Sigmar and the Stormcast.

I pretty much agree with what you are getting at. I have personally always hated sigmar, I thought he was the worst part in his own book trilogy, the character is that bad. But making him an actual god and changing his mentality doesnt change that he is still a boring character. The stormcast are just ridiculous. I see what they were trying to do, and just no. not without a completely new setting (devoid of ALL previous connections)

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

I think they wanted some familiar faces for us to attach to. So, Allarielle pining after the Old World is meant to encourage us to be sympathetic towards her. Or, they thought that the dynamic of those characters were so good and liked that making them gods would crossover really well. Malekith and Morathi, It does seem to have been the Elves and Undead for some reason.

But whats the point of Manfred or Nefereta without Sylvannia or Khemri?

But yeah, theres a few for which it makes no sense. I mean I was reading up on Valkia's backstory and so much of what makes that character her is what happened in the Old World that its impossible to simply transplant her in another world and not feel a disconnection. Its not like Skarbrand where he was already rooted in the demonic realms what happened to him.

TBH I think most of the negativity centres almost entirely around Sigmar and the Stormcast.

Valkia was favored by Khorne and is a Daemon prince, so her coming back in Age of Sigmar makes sense as Ka'Banadha appearing during the End Times.
I think the idea of the Gods being returning characters makes sense since most of those people were incarnated of a wind of magic during the End Times and didn't really die at the end of it.

The Old World is destroyed, but some of the gods definitely formed attachments to it.

They're not so much the gods of old as they are mortals that touched the Winds of Magic through being Incarnates. Like at explained it best in End Times III, I think. The gods mortals worshipped had been mortals themselves before, with power granted unto them to put up a fight against the gods of Chaos that have always been there.

Think Gwyn and the other Lords taking a portion of the First Flame to combat the Everlasting Dragons. That's what Sigmar is like for me right now.

Yeah she is Khornes Valkyrie I get that. The issue is that her character and even abilities are strongly tied to her Old World backstory which you can't really tell anymore.

How she took over her tribe, defeated and captured the Slanneshi demon, went into the Chaos wastes and was betrayed by her followers. I have read the blurb in AoS and they do try to tell that origin story as cryptically as possible because none of these places or people exist. The chaos wastes, the norse etc etc. They basically can't do her backstory anymore and try to avoid telling her backstory. Why does she have a Slannesh demons head on her shield. How did she become Khornes consort. The answers to these questions don't fit with the AoS lore which wants to shroud the Old World past in mystery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
The Old World is destroyed, but some of the gods definitely formed attachments to it.

They're not so much the gods of old as they are mortals that touched the Winds of Magic through being Incarnates. Like at explained it best in End Times III, I think. The gods mortals worshipped had been mortals themselves before, with power granted unto them to put up a fight against the gods of Chaos that have always been there.

Think Gwyn and the other Lords taking a portion of the First Flame to combat the Everlasting Dragons. That's what Sigmar is like for me right now.

Its not just him having super powers like the God Emperor. Its that he becomes Zeus, he becomes the All Father, he creates a new reality and forms a new Pantheon. That's far beyond simply empowering mortals with the Winds of Magic (itself very questioned by the lore community).

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yeah she is Khornes Valkyrie I get that. The issue is that her character and even abilities are strongly tied to her Old World backstory which you can't really tell anymore.

How she took over her tribe, defeated and captured the Slanneshi demon, went into the Chaos wastes and was betrayed by her followers. I have read the blurb in AoS and they do try to tell that origin story as cryptically as possible because none of these places or people exist. The chaos wastes, the norse etc etc. They basically can't do her backstory anymore and try to avoid telling her backstory. Why does she have a Slannesh demons head on her shield. How did she become Khornes consort. The answers to these questions don't fit with the AoS lore which wants to shroud the Old World past in mystery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
The Old World is destroyed, but some of the gods definitely formed attachments to it.

They're not so much the gods of old as they are mortals that touched the Winds of Magic through being Incarnates. Like at explained it best in End Times III, I think. The gods mortals worshipped had been mortals themselves before, with power granted unto them to put up a fight against the gods of Chaos that have always been there.

Think Gwyn and the other Lords taking a portion of the First Flame to combat the Everlasting Dragons. That's what Sigmar is like for me right now.

Its not just him having super powers like the God Emperor. Its that he becomes Zeus, he becomes the All Father, he creates a new reality and forms a new Pantheon. That's far beyond simply empowering mortals with the Winds of Magic (itself very questioned by the lore community).

They did the same thing with Archaon too. So the fact that they made her past and Archaon's past (and a few others) a mystery in Age of Sigmar. The fact that they make references to the Old World in Warbeasts book were they make references to Kislev and a few others thing so if you don't think that her backstory doesn't fit in the lore of Age of Sigmar doesn't make sense when people in the new lore do mention the stuff in the Old World.

But whats the point of Manfred or Nefereta without Sylvannia or Khemri?

Well Nefereta will keep rebuilding her beloved city whereever she ends up - its in her nature............ I am hoping she brought her favoutie Cathyian handmaiden back as well...

Also I was looking forward to watching her negotiating with the Sigmarites until Nagash turned up :(

Mannfred will continue to be the petulant child that he always was. He pursues power by (attempting to) usurping those that have it, rather than putting in the honest effort to accumulate it himself.

He'll have a starring role in some monumental clusterf--k of a turning point I can guarantee.
As for the gods... I think there needs to be a distinction. We're not going to see Khorne any time soon, for example. He's a GOD god. Sigmar/Alarielle/etc. ... they're more divine beings with super-mortal powers. I very, very much doubt we'll ever see a Sigmar mini because there's practical considerations (if he's not in Azyr, the Stormcasts can't be teleported or reforged) but also Sigmar's already handed Ghal Maraz to the Celestant Prime. IMO because he's scared of losing, but that's a whole other discussion.
But looks like Alarielle is coming, I would think Malerion could make an appearance, but then in cases like Gorkamorka it wouldn't fit. I dunno.

In terms of the gods having a more direct involvement in the setting; it fits when you have molten metal waterfalls and dimly sentient floating islands.

I think if they've done Nagash, Archaon and Alarielle. That probably means that every army is going to have at least one big leader kit. So it makes a lot of sense to have one god for each faction.

I didn't know he had given the hammer away. I guess you could count the Celestant as their big kit.

Well these gods did not just go from mortal to god in one step; the end times story made a very big deal about how they became incarnates of winds of magic. Nagash in particular I believe dam well earned his godhood.

Also, I don't know where the idea of Sigmar being the creator comes from... it is explicitly said more than once that he was brought to the already-existing mortal realms; he didn't even find them on his own, let alone create them. He founded his pantheon based on gods that also existed on their own before he met them.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

I think they wanted some familiar faces for us to attach to.

I definitely agree with you there. The incarnates would have been enough for that I think. Even Archaon shouldn't be there, all the books had him hating chaos just a bit less than Sigmar. He should either have been replaced by a new evil, or even realized that he was wrong and joined Sigmar as his champion, and fought against chaos. That would have made more sense to me.

 JamesY wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I sort of agree. I didn't understand destroying the old world for a fresh start, only to fill the new landscape with 25yr old characters that we've got preconceived ideas of and attachments to.

I think they wanted some familiar faces for us to attach to.

I definitely agree with you there. The incarnates would have been enough for that I think. Even Archaon shouldn't be there, all the books had him hating chaos just a bit less than Sigmar. He should either have been replaced by a new evil, or even realized that he was wrong and joined Sigmar as his champion, and fought against chaos. That would have made more sense to me.

Chaos does not care if he hates them or not - in fact if he does - its more fun for them................

Just read the Rob Saunders novel Everchosen - he tries repeatedly to escape his fate in that one - but is not allowed to change his path, or even die to escape his fate.

A good Allarielle model will be wecolmed by me - her last one was not great............

I also think the whole AOS is going for the epic mythic style - Hercules, the (human) like gods of various mythology etc directly intervening in the mortal affairs not just plotting and scheming................

@Mr Morden it isn't the opinion of the gods I was meaning, more Archaon deciding to break away. Given the scope of what he has done, if anyone could break the ties it'd be him.

In the everchosen books, it isn't so much him trying to escape, it's Belakor making sure that his plan comes to fruition by resteering Archaon's path. Is Belakor in the fluff for AoS? In Slayer it wasn't clear if Gotrek actually properly killed him.

There are definite parallels with Greek mythology, agree with you there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well these gods did not just go from mortal to god in one step; the end times story made a very big deal about how they became incarnates of winds of magic. Nagash in particular I believe dam well earned his godhood.

Also, I don't know where the idea of Sigmar being the creator comes from... it is explicitly said more than once that he was brought to the already-existing mortal realms; he didn't even find them on his own, let alone create them. He founded his pantheon based on gods that also existed on their own before he met them.

I have to agree here the factions with the most returning characters is death and chaos which is pretty obvious considering the forces backing them and out of all the gods nagash earned that. Sigmar ended up with god like power through tzeentch trolling him. Belakor has not appeared in AOS, Archaon is getting to the point the chaos gods are starting to fear him the three heads of his mount were actually assassins. I imagine when slaanesh enters the game it will shake the pantheon I have a strange feeling.

The problem is with Archaon is that he is the best guy for the job, they have no one else and he won't bow to one of them now Archaon is not a god but a demi-god of sorts. Think like the current voice of the ruinous powers who are active. Still after reading the e-short godless the slaanesh followers are mighty interesting. I personally found as a slaanesh fan in fantasy slaanesh was just you know there? If you get my meaning?

 JamesY wrote:
@Mr Morden it isn't the opinion of the gods I was meaning, more Archaon deciding to break away. Given the scope of what he has done, if anyone could break the ties it'd be him.

In the everchosen books, it isn't so much him trying to escape, it's Belakor making sure that his plan comes to fruition by resteering Archaon's path. Is Belakor in the fluff for AoS? In Slayer it wasn't clear if Gotrek actually properly killed him.

There are definite parallels with Greek mythology, agree with you there.

Wouldn't matter if Be'Lakor got killed since he is a daemon; he'll just pop back up in the warp. And while Be'Lakor has not appeared in AoS fluff his warscroll is still current where all the other special characters who died got their warscrolls discontinued or made generic.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
@Mr Morden it isn't the opinion of the gods I was meaning, more Archaon deciding to break away. Given the scope of what he has done, if anyone could break the ties it'd be him.

In the everchosen books, it isn't so much him trying to escape, it's Belakor making sure that his plan comes to fruition by resteering Archaon's path. Is Belakor in the fluff for AoS? In Slayer it wasn't clear if Gotrek actually properly killed him.

There are definite parallels with Greek mythology, agree with you there.

Wouldn't matter if Be'Lakor got killed since he is a daemon; he'll just pop back up in the warp. And while Be'Lakor has not appeared in AoS fluff his warscroll is still current where all the other special characters who died got their warscrolls discontinued or made generic.

Being killed permanently by Gotrek would be possible given the axe he was using, but that was why I was asking. If his warscroll is in the current books though he clearly wasn't.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Also, I don't know where the idea of Sigmar being the creator comes from... it is explicitly said more than once that he was brought to the already-existing mortal realms; he didn't even find them on his own, let alone create them. He founded his pantheon based on gods that also existed on their own before he met them.

The answer is simple. He is not the creator. Just like in 40K where everything is in the view of Imperium of man, that same thing is for AoS. This is the view of Sigmar and his followers. He is no god, he is no creator, just a coward and someone who is full of himself.