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I just finished Echoes of the Long War and noticed a few oddities about the way orks are described in the series:

* Imperial characters, including ones with access to the best information available on orks, are startled to hear them speaking Gothic.
* Characters with extensive experience fighting orks seem completely unfamiliar with Bad Moons and Blood Axes and the role they play in ork society.
* There are several mentions by mechanicus characters of the ork race undergoing 'speciation'.

This seems to indicate that up until then, orks had lacked several of the features that we see in them during the 41st millenium. So the War of the Beast could possibly be when the ork clans started to diverge from each other and the orks we see in the Beast Arises series are not that different to the ones we see in 40k; they just seem unusual to the Imperial characters who had only seen the basic ancestral form.

On the other hand, the orks in the War of the Beast seem to have technology which is beyond what their descendants are able to produce, like the Attack Moons and the weapon which caused a star to collapse into a black hole. Maybe there was a specific strain of orks who made the super-weapons and got wiped out entirely in the war?

It's definitely starting to look like that.

Most interesting, to me, was the fact that this seems to be where we're getting the Imperium start to name the clans.

We have the Goffs in the book--and apparently the reason they choose black and white is because of their ties to the Beast of Ullanor(yes THAT Beast of Ullanor; the one who almost killed the Emperor) and associating black and white(Luna Wolves colors) with strength. They're not given a name yet; just Orks with looted ceramite plates and a few plates still bearing Luna Wolves colors.

We have the Bloody Axes(not a typo--a Scion Colonel uses the term for them) employing some really cool stuff. The Kommandos(and their transport ) that we got mentioned on Praxus are something I really want to see. They were clad head to toe in form-fitting black armor that was friggin' deflecting hotshot lasgun rounds, they'd dulled down their weapons, rubbed soot over their blades, even sooted up their fangs and claws.

What's really telling though is that bit during the boarding sequence. The Dreadnought seems surprised to see something that was acting as a kind of "orkoid techpriest", so it could very well be that the Big Meks started to come forth during the War of the Beast.

Not sure. You might be right or it could just be some local branches of orks who are learning stuff by adapting to / imitating humans. Ork societies tend to go trough several stages of development during the their life cycle.

An interesting thing to notice is that there is a story in one of the Rogue trader (old hammer) books about meks wanting to replicate a human god engine. With a picture of them building a stompa like vehicle.



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On the positive side does this mean that orks are officially in 30k, as in can I finally join the party of no grav no eldar and no tau fun?

You can ask. Eldar are there too though.

I do not think they were evolving. Rather they got a chance to reach they full encoded [by Old Ones] potential. In other word I think that Beast orks are just what becomes of orks when they are left alone for too long. Remember that in tome 5 - Throneworld, harlequin speaks about even greater waaagh! defeated by eldar. Also great crusade faced orks of sophistication unheard of in 40k.

pm713 wrote:
You can ask. Eldar are there too though.

BOOO


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On a more serious note you did most likely not see meks being evolved. How to be a good Ork Mek is encoded into the DNA of orks from the start on. You might have seen one of the First meks ( at least of that strain of orks) who tried to imitate a tech priest by adding those mechanical arm thingies to its back pack.


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But it is still cool even if it is just a few klans you saw slowly progressing and evolving. This wants me to read the books : )

In the older Ork background the Blood Axes used to dominate ork society long before the Great Crusade until all the other clans stomped them good during what ork's call "Da Big Party". It would be a change if BL were to have the ork clans as something coming into existence during this period. It's also a way to describe the orks for the reader though, rather than having it all as assumed knowledge.

It's the side effect of waaaagh energy and the gene encoded knowledge of orks. The more orks gathering under a waaaagh the bigger and louder and more physics defying tek start coming out of the meks. I can think of two other fluff bits of orks building planet smashing super weapons but the Beast had the biggest Waaaagh in Imperium history so his mess were pumping out all kinds of killy dakka dakka. Those Orks, it's said, had the most powerful plasma technology ever seen before or since. It was a shot from one of these that staggered the Empy enough for the massive warlord to come up and throttle him. Almost ended that chapter in mankind's life. This is just the general fluff from the dex. Haven't read the books yet, curious of the detailed story.

The two other instances of ork planet smashing tek each used a different way then the orks mentioned earlier in this thread but each also impressive and all together more scary considering that orks can come up with creative ways to destroy planets.

It went something like this; An ork wanted to be known as 'da best loota uv dem all'. His goal was to loot an entire planet. He and his orks pick a heavily populated hive world with a moon. They build a large traktor array system on the moon and use it to pull the moon into it's parent planet. Atmosphere, oceans, all life...all gone and the planet breaks into pieces. The orks then hollow out the pieces and make Roks out of them and tow them away, effectively looting an entire planet.

The bit of lore didn't work out so well for the orks but the results spectacular nonetheless; An ork decides he wants to turn his huge space ship into a colossal shokk attack gun and use it on an Imperial planet. He and his orks build it and fly it to a hive planet with barrel aimed at the planet. First phase of the event was a rain shower of snotlings and grots as the huge SAG fired it's payload. Having run out of ammo quickly the big mek then starts shooting orks into the atmosphere. The other orks realizing a bad idea took control of the ship and reversed the SAG. The entire planet disappeared and then reappeared inside the ship in a massive explosion destroying the planet , ship, and all life on both.

We do see repeated use of weaponised teleportation and gravity based weapons in 40k orks. It's a pretty cool idea that The Beast Waaugh is when these technologies were innovated in Ork society.

Reading the first of these books was fun I want an attack moon now as a LOW !

 oldzoggy wrote:
Reading the first of these books was fun I want an attack moon now as a LOW !

It'll get destroyed by a single missile due to shoddy Grot workers.

 Gogsnik wrote:
In the older Ork background the Blood Axes used to dominate ork society long before the Great Crusade until all the other clans stomped them good during what ork's call "Da Big Party". It would be a change if BL were to have the ork clans as something coming into existence during this period. It's also a way to describe the orks for the reader though, rather than having it all as assumed knowledge.

It's not a case of "Ork Clans as something coming into existence during this period".

It's a case of "This is the first time the Imperium has actually encountered the clan structures". They never encountered Blood Axes or the other clans during the Great Crusade.

The Orks in 40K have always seemed to me a facsimile of the Imperium, what with their very similar war machines, love of war, and obsession with technology.

Orks fought the Necrons during the War in Heaven. They are one of the oldest sapient species in the galaxy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Orks fought the Necrons during the War in Heaven. They are one of the oldest sapient species in the galaxy.

with all the twisting and retconning of the C'Tan/Necron/Old Ones fluff is that actually still the case?

In old fluff the Old Ones made the Krork to fight the C'Tan and its typical to take this to be the primordial Orks but has that not been retconned with all the cahnges?

For example at the time it was also suggested that the pariah gene was dropped into human DNA by the C'Tan as a way of countering the Old Ones but that has been retconned out now.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not think they were evolving. Rather they got a chance to reach they full encoded [by Old Ones] potential. In other word I think that Beast orks are just what becomes of orks when they are left alone for too long. Remember that in tome 5 - Throneworld, harlequin speaks about even greater waaagh! defeated by eldar. Also great crusade faced orks of sophistication unheard of in 40k.

I completely agree with this. I believe Ork genes are a scary, sleeping giant when it comes to knowledge.

Imagine Orks with tech comparable to that of Necrons.

Broly wrote:
Imagine Orks with tech comparable to that of Necrons.

You don't need to imagine that you just need to read the War of the Beast series.





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There isn't much ork stuff retconned it is just obscured by omitting it or casting doubt on it by stating that there are conflicting theories and stories.

Orks are like your lawn. If you dont mow regularly it takes over.
Seeing as orks copy other races tech. I wouldnt be surprised If the beast had just conquered a tomb world.

They don't even need to conquer a tomb world. They where geneticly engineered to have sufficient racial knowledge to battle the ancient necron forces. The knowledge only needs to be awakened.




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Ork evolution is an extremely alien thing to us since it doesn't follow the principles of Darwinian evolution. Their culture might perhaps. But the race as a whole just doesn't play with the same rules as most earthborn life does.

Oldzoggy is correct. The knowledge and training is already engineered in their dna. The more orks united in a frenzy = more Waaaagh! Energy. The more Waaaagh! Energy the more the latent knowledge unlocks in the mek''s mind. The example with The Beast is just the biggest the Imperium has on current record. Orks have been around for a long time and fought in the War in Heaven. I doubt The Beast was the first to unite so many and build up so much Waaaagh! Energy resulting in some of the biggest physics defying tek, nor will he be the last.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Orks fought the Necrons during the War in Heaven. They are one of the oldest sapient species in the galaxy.

with all the twisting and retconning of the C'Tan/Necron/Old Ones fluff is that actually still the case?

In old fluff the Old Ones made the Krork to fight the C'Tan and its typical to take this to be the primordial Orks but has that not been retconned with all the cahnges?

For example at the time it was also suggested that the pariah gene was dropped into human DNA by the C'Tan as a way of countering the Old Ones but that has been retconned out now.

That is still the case. The Pariah Gene thing was removed because the timeline doesn't line up anymore. Humanity didn't exist in any form 60+ million years ago, so the C'Tan could not have inserted the gene into the species (it didn't exist yet, and wouldn't exist for a very, very long time after they were all sharded). For them to have placed the gene into some tiny mammal that would then develop into primates and, eventually, humanity is simply gambling on luck that it would turn into anything (and raises the question as to why none of the other primates are Blanks).

 Kanluwen wrote:
We have the Goffs in the book--and apparently the reason they choose black and white is because of their ties to the Beast of Ullanor(yes THAT Beast of Ullanor; the one who almost killed the Emperor) and associating black and white(Luna Wolves colors) with strength. They're not given a name yet; just Orks with looted ceramite plates and a few plates still bearing Luna Wolves colors.

First of all, the 'Beast of Ullanor' has a name. Urlakk Urg. Or Urrlak Urruk, if you prefer that. He is not picky.

Second, he never met the Emperor. He fought Horus alone, and got his ass kicked quite spectalurly to boot. (Huehue)

The one who fought the Emperor is the unnamed Warlord of Gorro, a planetoid of a different place and time entirely. If it is true that the Goffs took their black and white colours from the Luna Wolves, it must have been the Ullanor Orks, not the ones that fought the Emperor. The Orks of Gorro were wiped out and the planetoid destroyed, so no one would be left to spread the word.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Dreadnought seems surprised to see something that was acting as a kind of "orkoid techpriest", so it could very well be that the Big Meks started to come forth during the War of the Beast.

'Gorro was an Ork World. The planet was in fact a giant asteroid expanded by space debris and scraps from powerful Mekboyz.'

Nope. Unless you suggest all Meks of the previous eras abandoned their profession upon reaching Nob size, a dubious claim to say the least.

For more info about this, read Wolf of Ash and Fire. Medium writing quality, but informative and short.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not think they were evolving. Rather they got a chance to reach they full encoded [by Old Ones] potential. In other word I think that Beast orks are just what becomes of orks when they are left alone for too long. Remember that in tome 5 - Throneworld, harlequin speaks about even greater waaagh! defeated by eldar. Also great crusade faced orks of sophistication unheard of in 40k.

During the Dark Age of Technology, the Human "federation" and Eldar empire were responsible for keeping the Orks in check. To the point where Humanity considered the Orks to be inconsequential.


But after the fall of Man, and the Eldar's descent into corruption, the Orks probably didn't have the pressure on them they had before. That allowed them to grow in numbers and power. Enough by the time of the Great Crusade, they were a serious threat to the expeditionary forces.

So what you say makes perfect sense.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Orks fought the Necrons during the War in Heaven. They are one of the oldest sapient species in the galaxy.

with all the twisting and retconning of the C'Tan/Necron/Old Ones fluff is that actually still the case?

In old fluff the Old Ones made the Krork to fight the C'Tan and its typical to take this to be the primordial Orks but has that not been retconned with all the cahnges?

For example at the time it was also suggested that the pariah gene was dropped into human DNA by the C'Tan as a way of countering the Old Ones but that has been retconned out now.

Actually, the Old Ones created the Orks from the already-extinct Krork, because it's always easier to modify life than create it. The Krork, I believe, had a genetic memory of their own - but there wasn't anything in it powerful or useful enough to prevent their extermination.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Actually, the Old Ones created the Orks from the already-extinct Krork, because it's always easier to modify life than create it. The Krork, I believe, had a genetic memory of their own - but there wasn't anything in it powerful or useful enough to prevent their extermination.

May I ask what the source is for this? I don't recall any of that detail from the old Necron Codex.

I should say, I loathe the krork background (such as it is) and I just don't want to believe this actually exists in an official publication!!!