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Iron hands vs Space Wolves, back in 30k, werent the bitter rivals they are today. Thats in the 41k era. My buddy and I have a 6-7k game coming up. We are using legion rules for the Wolves, but I have a question regarding Psychic spells.



1) Do the wolves get access to their normal spells from their 40k codex? How does this translate?

2) Can SW use their fliers from their codex in 30k or is it just limited to Storm eagles T-hawks and raptors?

3) Does Skies of death work with 30k?

4) What book are super heavy detachments in where Titans are the warlords?

5) Is there a min pt restriction for titans (still 33 or 25%?)

6) Why the hell did space wolves suck so bad in 30k and not 40k?

7) Are primarchs ever taken in competitive lists?

well, no official rules for the wolves yet BUT:

1) Probably not. Their priests weren't as common, and they will probably be given a special one since Russ was a filthy furry hypocrate! ("oh, my librarians aren't psykers though ")

2) No, you're limted to the 30k stuff + whatever you get in book 7

3) Maybe? there's no official word on it yet, but at the moment, no since there are no skies of death rules for 30k yet.

4) Leviathan detachements should be in the upcoming crusade list red book, the current crusade list red book, and book 4 IIRC (could be wrong on the last one)

5) 25% of the total list cost, and ONLY in games of 2000 points or more.

6) they don't suck so bad in 30k as 1) they have no rules yet, and 2) by the fluff they managed to do their job super well, they just got gak stomped by arguably one of the most OP legions by the fluff (librarians are hard to counter when you don't have any of your own TS for lyfe)

7) Competative lists are rarely taken as 30k is much more about the fluff + fun than 40k seemingly is now-a-days, though that's probably moreso on the community. Primarchs can be super competative, as you can take them in lower point games (through primarch's chosen) and they don't eat up near as much of your army as other LoWs

Okay, Ive fielded Ferrus Mannus only in Apoc games. So im wondering if it would be OK to bring him into 2k games or so. I understand fluff is vital, so im going to go beat down with a primarch. just wanted to see if its a rare sight to see or common place and expect to fight other ferrururururursuusess.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Okay, Ive fielded Ferrus Mannus only in Apoc games. So im wondering if it would be OK to bring him into 2k games or so. I understand fluff is vital, so im going to go beat down with a primarch. just wanted to see if its a rare sight to see or common place and expect to fight other ferrururururursuusess.

so long as you let your opponent know your bringing a LoW as a nicety, sure! When I first started, Mortarion was in every other game I played, but now that I have more, I save him for larger games or more "important" ones like a match with a friend, a long standing 'feud' fight, or the like.

Okay, next Question.

Levithan Detachment is 1-3 LoW Slots with no 25% restirction. I won the Adeitpcion HH doubles Tourney with a legion glaive as my LoW. Each side had 1500pt to spend.

Would i legally be able to take a reaver at 1450 for my side? Like god damn that seems way overpowered.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Okay, next Question.

Levithan Detachment is 1-3 LoW Slots with no 25% restirction. I won the Adeitpcion HH doubles Tourney with a legion glaive as my LoW. Each side had 1500pt to spend.

Would i legally be able to take a reaver at 1450 for my side? Like god damn that seems way overpowered.

Adepticon removed the restriction on LoW for that iirc

Some primarchs are pretty good, some average result depends on army size and purpose.

E.g.

beatstick only: angron/vulkan/mortarion works up to 3k points in a spartan with company. Any higher point level and the spartan will die before goal has been reached. 10 terminators can probably do their job as well. Mort ownes zone mort

Self mobile: curze/corax/horus are always usefu, the first 2 more so.

Army buff:pert/guil: always usefull, the bigger the game the better. Can border on op

Exceptional: lorgar transcend. Always good

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Okay, next Question.

Levithan Detachment is 1-3 LoW Slots with no 25% restirction. I won the Adeitpcion HH doubles Tourney with a legion glaive as my LoW. Each side had 1500pt to spend.

Would i legally be able to take a reaver at 1450 for my side? Like god damn that seems way overpowered.

I use a 30k Leviathan Detachment for my Centurio Ordinatus army. At 1500 my Warlord is an Ulator.

Yes, you can take the Reaver as your Leviathan, however, you only get an allied detachment and two lesser Lords of War for your army - 30k does not allow for multiple FOCs in an army.

That said, a Reaver is a regular LoW at 6000.

 Fruzzle wrote:
Some primarchs are pretty good, some average result depends on army size and purpose.

E.g.

beatstick only: angron/vulkan/mortarion works up to 3k points in a spartan with company. Any higher point level and the spartan will die before goal has been reached. 10 terminators can probably do their job as well. Mort ownes zone mort

Self mobile: curze/corax/horus are always usefu, the first 2 more so.

Army buff:pert/guil: always usefull, the bigger the game the better. Can border on op

Exceptional: lorgar transcend. Always good

you are underselling Mortarion a TON: makes the entire "immune to fear" army stubborn, gives frag stuff poison (4+) (with 30k's poison rule, that's amazing). He's the fastest Primarch (6" move, 10" warp that he can charge after), one of the most best 'shooting phase' primarchs (a strong pistol, the warp move, and 12" range phosphex bombs), with a 3+ deny. If you're running him in a spartan you want him to go slower, or you're to afraid of enemy shooting, and wasted the ~300 points on a spartan With T: 7 he can hold his own against a LOT untill a unit can come bail him out (if need be) DG used the occasional transport, but not all the time (if you can't tell, I think spartans are super over rated )

As for zones mortalis, I agree: Mortarion is fething terrifying.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Some primarchs are pretty good, some average result depends on army size and purpose.

E.g.

beatstick only: angron/vulkan/mortarion works up to 3k points in a spartan with company. Any higher point level and the spartan will die before goal has been reached. 10 terminators can probably do their job as well. Mort ownes zone mort

Self mobile: curze/corax/horus are always usefu, the first 2 more so.

Army buff:pert/guil: always usefull, the bigger the game the better. Can border on op

Exceptional: lorgar transcend. Always good

you are underselling Mortarion a TON: makes the entire "immune to fear" army stubborn, gives frag stuff poison (4+) (with 30k's poison rule, that's amazing). He's the fastest Primarch (6" move, 10" warp that he can charge after), one of the most best 'shooting phase' primarchs (a strong pistol, the warp move, and 12" range phosphex bombs), with a 3+ deny. If you're running him in a spartan you want him to go slower, or you're to afraid of enemy shooting, and wasted the ~300 points on a spartan With T: 7 he can hold his own against a LOT untill a unit can come bail him out (if need be) DG used the occasional transport, but not all the time (if you can't tell, I think spartans are super over rated )

As for zones mortalis, I agree: Mortarion is fething terrifying.

You're right I missed he's actually that fast the poison buff and stubborn is great but only having a 4++ hurts him. Spartans are good but I don't think Spartan + Primarch + terminators is the way to go (but the only way for the mobility challenged primarchs). 10 Terminators with plasma blasters + some combi plasma and fist will get the job done for cheaper. Sparten in 2500k and lower game should allow you to dictate where/when the battle is fought.

You did change my opinion of mort, but I don't think he affects the battle as much as some of the better army buffing primarchs

'S what I do

I agree he's not the best 'buffing' primarch (though can be devastating with the legion RoWs. Also, 4++ is mitigated a hare by the re-rolling IWND, though not by much. I still think they did him a disservice to the fluff by making him a little less durable than Vulkan. His 'buff' comes in the form of being able to get to those artillery pieces MUCH sooner than the enemy player expected, throwing off much of their battle plans in a less 'traditional' manner. Add in the fact that his scythe is no longer unweildy, and still ID, and you have a terrifying (funny 'cause he causes Fear checks at -1 LD ), effective guy.... though I may be biased.

 Fruzzle wrote:
Some primarchs are pretty good, some average result depends on army size and purpose.

E.g.

beatstick only: angron/vulkan/mortarion works up to 3k points in a spartan with company. Any higher point level and the spartan will die before goal has been reached. 10 terminators can probably do their job as well. Mort ownes zone mort

Self mobile: curze/corax/horus are always usefu, the first 2 more so.

Army buff:pert/guil: always usefull, the bigger the game the better. Can border on op

Exceptional: lorgar transcend. Always good

I've used Vulkan before by putting him in a Caestus with 6 TH/SS Firedrakes and Nomus Rhytan. Yes, the super unit doesn't affect anything until turn 3 minimum. Once it was there it wrecked face just fine.

Levithan Detachment is 1-3 LoW Slots with no 25% restirction.

Note that ONLY the 'leviathan' - the one 'big guy' Lord of War - ignores the 25% restriction. The other two lords of war are normal 'slots'; not available until 2,000 points and limited to 25% of your army.

So a 1500 point Leviathan army can be a Reaver titan, but couldn't be two Warhound titans, for example.

It's a lot less awesome than it first looks - you only have one model, so can only take one objective at a time, and whilst you have epic firepower, you're restricted to a narrow 90' arc of fire to distribute it across, and if you move forwards out of your deployment zone (which you'll have to do sooner or later - see above) then you'll find yourself unable to fire your carapace mount at non-superheavies pretty damn quickly.

A titan is an awesome army to play and to face, but it is definitely beatable. The "really?" list of 4 x 3 thudd guns can realistically implode a Reaver's shields and knock off half its hull points in one hail of shatter shells.....

3) Does Skies of death work with 30k?

Theoretically yes, but at the moment there are no official 'stats' (combat role, pursuit, agility) for heresy-era flyers. Expect Forge World to correct this soonish. Theoretically the rules apply but you have limited ways to make use of them; without the stats you can't use the dogfight phase, for example.
There is a Lord Of War option of the fighter wing - since it has the same deployment rules and names as the fighter wings in Death From The Skies, I'd happily treat it as the same thing. That means they can use attack patterns, which goes some way to make up for the fact that killing them is worth victory points (compared to exactly the same fighter bought in a fast attack slot).

The Wolves do not get their specific discipline nor their specific flyers. Legion Astartes (Space Wolves) is a fundamentally different army to the Space Wolves codex, and nothing moves across unless it's specifically listed as doing so, any more than do deathwing terminators/interromancy for dark angels.

What makes you think space wolves suck in 30k?

 bomtek80 wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Some primarchs are pretty good, some average result depends on army size and purpose.

E.g.

beatstick only: angron/vulkan/mortarion works up to 3k points in a spartan with company. Any higher point level and the spartan will die before goal has been reached. 10 terminators can probably do their job as well. Mort ownes zone mort

Self mobile: curze/corax/horus are always usefu, the first 2 more so.

Army buff:pert/guil: always usefull, the bigger the game the better. Can border on op

Exceptional: lorgar transcend. Always good

I've used Vulkan before by putting him in a Caestus with 6 TH/SS Firedrakes and Nomus Rhytan. Yes, the super unit doesn't affect anything until turn 3 minimum. Once it was there it wrecked face just fine.

Turn 3 at best... I agree it's a good way to run it but if you fluff your reserve roll on turn 2 it's going to look dire missing out on 1000+ points for 3/4 turns (Half the game!) if your opponent spread out a bit during that time you'd be lucky to kill 2 or more units which is really necessary to make up on your investment. I'd rather have them in the spartan to at least soak up some shots/block los. Finally, if you didn't ''unhorse'' an enemy deadstar it might look dire for you vs Angron + butcher +Primus or say Fullgrim with Phoenix guard (Enemy sergeant can eat your challenge turn 1, fulgrim will kill 3/4 firedrakes than fight Vulkan).

I still don't see why they NEED transports to begin with. I know primarchs are one hell of a bullet sponge, but stick 2 'bullet sponges' into your army, and laugh at your opponents confliction. Either that, or watch them waste their shots into a 10-man terminator squad + primarch while the rest of your army kicks them in the shins for their tunnel vision.

Also note, I am pretty sure the alternative FoCs in the AoD are optional. And yes everything is optional since the game is voluntary, just be sure to ask your opponent if its ok to use that FoC beforehand. I would likely say no just because I would have to rewrite my list to take on a reaver.

I have been playing 40k for decades now and never heard about any rivalry between wolves and IH. Wolves vs Inq is the really big one because of Armageddon. If I remember right they have a beef with Dark Angels too for something or another, but never heard anything about the IH seeing as they are the 2nd most untalked about main chapters in 40k.

Col. Dash wrote:
Also note, I am pretty sure the alternative FoCs in the AoD are optional. And yes everything is optional since the game is voluntary, just be sure to ask your opponent if its ok to use that FoC beforehand. I would likely say no just because I would have to rewrite my list to take on a reaver.

I have been playing 40k for decades now and never heard about any rivalry between wolves and IH. Wolves vs Inq is the really big one because of Armageddon. If I remember right they have a beef with Dark Angels too for something or another, but never heard anything about the IH seeing as they are the 2nd most untalked about main chapters in 40k.

No real beef with the DA vs IH. Def beef btw SW and DA. Solid beef btw IH and SW. an IH commander critiqued a SW assault and it was taken as an insult by the notoriously hot headed wolves.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Solid beef btw IH and SW. an IH commander critiqued a SW assault and it was taken as an insult by the notoriously hot headed wolves.

When?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Solid beef btw IH and SW. an IH commander critiqued a SW assault and it was taken as an insult by the notoriously hot headed wolves.

When?

"A Calculated Insult (963.M41) - The Iron Hands and the Space Wolves come to blows during the Battle for Fellcore Moon after Iron Captain Telavech's logical critique of Ragnar Blackmane's impetuous performance is taken as a scathing insult."

Taken from 40kwiki

Ok, one thing that happened in the 6th Edition Codex between Ragnar and Telavech doesn't equate to a Chapter wide rivalry.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Ok, one thing that happened in the 6th Edition Codex between Ragnar and Telavech doesn't equate to a Chapter wide rivalry.

Well they havent played nicely since. Also mentioned that was a 40k event. So not too worried, given this is a 30k thread. I havent read much of the Hand and Wolves working together after that event

Iron Hands are my Fave!!

 coolguyswhositathome wrote:
Iron Hands are my Fave!!

Same. I have an interesting theory of their use of exterminatus.

During the Great Malagantine Purge, 5 chapters including the Pre-LoD Firehawks chapter, Charnel Guard and Silver Skulls were sent to cleanse an entire sector world by world via exterminatus. Three chapters are mentioned, but two are left out for Inquisitorial reasons.

My idea is that they were two founding chapters that disdained humans more than anything else. First chapter that comes to mind if the Iron Hands. I think that the hands were involved in the extermnatus of the entire Malagant Sector, but their participation was redacted to protect the "integrity/ identity" of the chapter.

You can quite happily run a reaver using leviathan in 1,500, but it be too effective.

In one give games you will struggle, and against certain builds you will have huge issues.

While smaller, I've played against a warhound at the same points.
Due to constant issues with Spartans I run 2 lightning's packed with lovely armourbane missiles, so even titans fall quickly.

Although, I tend to run anti armour heavy with my mechanicum, so I don't usually struggle until people mass troops against me.

This is however due to constant knight titans and Spartans.

 Jackal wrote:
You can quite happily run a reaver using leviathan in 1,500, but it be too effective.

In one give games you will struggle, and against certain builds you will have huge issues.

While smaller, I've played against a warhound at the same points.
Due to constant issues with Spartans I run 2 lightning's packed with lovely armourbane missiles, so even titans fall quickly.

Although, I tend to run anti armour heavy with my mechanicum, so I don't usually struggle until people mass troops against me.

This is however due to constant knight titans and Spartans.

Ive considered taking 36" of tank traps, foot blobs with mg/mb and a reaver. Gives cover and tanks cant pass. I figured id make a set of monuments for the tank traps, like statues made from 54mm INQ game models painted like stone. 3-4x10 marines, a reaver and tank traps.