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Hi all,

I realise this isn't a topic that doesn't exist on the forums, but I can't see any mention of it in the last 2 years...

I'm brand new to dakka and returning to 40k after a 12 year break! This time round I decided to collect Tyranids because I love the fluff and painting/modelling opportunities. However, I have never won a battle, and I would like to at least once in my life! I'm playing against Tau, and it seems they are just at such an advantage that victory is out of reach. They seem to have cheaper, more powerful and more survivable units than Nids (apart from gaunts which are obviously very cheap). Case in point, a broadside costs 65 Pts. and my equivalent heavy support (Trygon Prime for example) weighs in at 240 or something! Even with cover, I can't keep anything alive. Currently running this:

Flyrant - TL Devs w/Brainleech
3 Zoans (with Neurothrope)
12 Hormagaunts
12 Termagaunts

I know it's a tiny force but against a Tau side of the same points (about 500) I can't seem to win. He's running:

2 squads of fire warriors with drones, 3 battlesuits, a hammerhead and an ethereal.

Even playing objectives, forcing them to move and risk CC, still no luck. I've been unlucky with flyrant and not really sure how to use him yet. I try to get him straight into combat but he gets destroyed in one round of Overwatch, especially against all these Tau AP3 weps which don't allow an armour save! Seems mad that he can get slaughtered so quickly as I've read how amazing Flyrants are supposed to be. The game seems so geared towards shooting now. The psychic phase seems so unreliable, especially stuff like Warp Blast which takes 4 loads of rolls to wound and can be denied.

Any tips most welcome, please remember I'm basically new to the game! Maybe should've stuck with my circa 2003 Necrons?!...

Thanks.

Unfortunately there is nothing you could do at 500 points. And there is nothing you could do at 2000 points. Tau firepower scales up exponentially as points increase. And their army has broken the game as they get every special rule that negates all other special rules your army has to its advantage.

^ A little bit of an over reaction.

You're not exactly using great units in your list (besides the flyrant). Your Flyrant should never get in to close combat unless kitted out for it and even then its not optimal. He should be in the air and using his firepower.

If you're tailoring against him, I'd take something like
Flyrant w/electro
2xMucolid
Mawloc
Biovore
Biovore

Or a Crone in place of the mawloc which can be particularly effective against suits with S8 vector and its S6/AP4 template ruins Firewarriors.

Yes, you're fighting an uphill battle. You, a human being, have a better chance of flying by flapping your arms (faster! FASTER!) than your tyranids defeating tau the way the armies are currently comprised. However, from your description of gameplay, there is hope!

Flyrants are good because they fly, and flying is good for all sorts of reasons. Keep that flyrant IN the air....don't try assaulting with it, and you may have a more positive experience before eventually losing the game.

Oh, and even though I like zoanthropes, they're not really helping you much in this matchup. Maybe keep one for synapse (and hide him at all times) and add some biovores for some long range pie plates.

At low point level games, Flyrants, a venomthrope, gants and Biovores are our best units. As points increase, Flyrants will always be a good unit. So much so that people often take 5 of them! Tyranids are admittedly not a great army at the moment but they are certainly capable of beating tau, just not every time. Keep your flyrant in the air (I hope you have two sets of Devourers for 12 shots) and keep a Biovore far back while shooting at his troops, preferably from out of line of sight. Venomthropes are also good all around units, just less so against Tau.

Welcome to the hive!

Are those the only models you have available?

If so, as stated already, keep the Flyrant in the air, shooting. Proxy a Zoan as a Venomthrope, or two, and consider running your hormagaunts as Termagants. I'd run 4 devourers in each squad of Termagants, in the back of the squads, and avoid CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And make sure you're playing on a board with an appropriate amount of cover. That is to say, lots.

Thanks everyone for the responses, this is kind of what I feared! I've seen that the winner of LVO this year was a tyranid force, overloading on Mucolids, Lictors, Mawlocs and Flyrants. But that was against SM so maybe wouldn't have worked against Tau. And obviously he's a pro player.

I think I'll invest in a Mawloc next for the subterranean assault ability, and then some biovores in the backfield.

I was confused because I was under the impression that Nids are a close combat army, but I guess if the game is geared toward shooting we have to get with the times...

When people say keep the Flyrant in the air, do you mean Swooping? The rules for FMCs are quite extensive and I haven't quite got the hang yet!

Thanks!

Your dakka flyrant shouldn't be going into close combat. It should be hanging out in the air at all times. He should have psychic shriek as a psychic power.

Target his marker drones first.

Mawlocs and biovores are fantastic. I'd recommend the pyrovore model in place of the biovore one, just looks better, but definitely play it as a biovore because pyrovores are sad.

We do well at CC, but I have always looked at it as us being a very short range shooting army with moderately better than average CC to allow for that short range shooting. We really need to stack buffs and play units well together - individually, the models are kind of weak (see Termagants) but when you give them Venomthrope cover, have them screening larger models, and provide them FNP while, say, paroxysming the enemy they are going to assault, suddenly they're much better. At least, useful.

It's all about the shooting these days. The more twin linked devourers, the better...

Buy yourself two more Flyrants and field all three, keeping them in the air and using psychic powers like Psychic Shriek. Mawlocs are very good as well, and I've seen Tervigones used to good effect as well. Stay in the air, maybe buy a Crone or two, and you stand a much better chance.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Buy yourself two more Flyrants and field all three

To the OP:

I strongly recommend against doing this. While it would technically make your army stronger, it's very much a TFG, cheesy strategy.

Save that for large tournaments.

 Traditio wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Buy yourself two more Flyrants and field all three

To the OP:

I strongly recommend against doing this. While it would technically make your army stronger, it's very much a TFG, cheesy strategy.

Save that for large tournaments.

He's playing Tyranids. He is not drowning in options for chances to win.

pm713 wrote:He's playing Tyranids. He is not drowning in options for chances to win.

I quote from the OP. This is what his opponent is using:

"2 squads of fire warriors with drones, 3 battlesuits, a hammerhead and an ethereal."

Unless I am simply mistaken, his opponent doesn't appear to be running a super-competitive cheese list.

He shouldn't either.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:He's playing Tyranids. He is not drowning in options for chances to win.

I quote from the OP. This is what his opponent is using:

"2 squads of fire warriors with drones, 3 battlesuits, a hammerhead and an ethereal."

Unless I am simply mistaken, his opponent doesn't appear to be running a super-competitive cheese list.

He shouldn't either.

That isn't what 3 Flyrants is. My experience of Nids has been that you have a reeeaaaaally bad army.

Well, for starters it's tau so they need to focus target priority if they want to increase BS or ignore cover with marker lights. So immediately I can suggest taking 3 individual zoanthropes since he will need to over commit firepower to kill them one at a time. That should help some until you get more models. Priority 1 for me would be biovores, they wreck fire warriors and you can snipe out his ethereal as well

BTW this applies to any army in 40k, MSU is the single best strategy since the game came out. make your opponent waste his points on your points.

The recommendations for Psychic Shriek are all well and good, but tyranids don't have access to that power (outside of genestealer cults at least).
They get their own version, Psychic Scream, instead. It's not a primaris so you have to roll for it. A ML2 tyrant only has about a 1/3 chance of getting it.

Sadly, flyrants propping up the entire codex. They are awesome enough that they let tyranids compete with mid-tier armies, but without them the army is utterly dismal.

They get it through the Neurothrope. I think it's an additional WC but it's basically the Doom of Malantai all over again (and yes, that model was awesome).

Ah right, spirit leech. A shame it's only available on neurothropes.



The doom was indeed pretty awesome. Probably the most broken thing the tyranids have ever had. I'd have been willing to pay closer to 200 points for that thing. 90 was ridiculous

are genestealers elites or troops?

Currently they're troops for tyranids, and elites for GSC (at least, if we assume the Purestrain Princelings are setting the standard for a GSC mini-dex).

Your chance is in the psychic phase. To maximize points, go 2 units of ripper swarms with spine fists and if you want get them deep strike. Biovores and spam spores for fast attack. As an alternative to the flyrant take a minimum tyranid prime only for synapse. Thenn pump points into zoanthropes. Another option is to get minimum sized genestealers with a broodlord then you can horror him great synergy with neurothrope. Start with killing his troops and then his suits. These options have no answer for his hammerhead except rending attacks from genestealers. You have to snipe rather than charge in.





you could try sniping with tyrant guard S8 that does not require line of sight.

As other people have said, your list is fine and so is the Taus, honestly your flyrant could probably solo his entire army, just stay in the air and Vector Strike the crisis suits while shooting the fire warriors, in 2 turns you should have both groups of warriors and the suits dead. Since the Tau list lacks markerlights he should only be hitting your flyrant on 6's, and if he does actually have markerlights always always always go for them first. Taus "amazing" shooting comes from markerlights, our base shooting is actually pretty terrible.

 OnlyRevolutions wrote:

When people say keep the Flyrant in the air, do you mean Swooping? The rules for FMCs are quite extensive and I haven't quite got the hang yet!

Yes, because when he is swooping he only gets hit on a 6+ (unless they have velocity trackers). It also lets you fire your 12 S6 shots (rerollable 3+ to hit) into his army and shred them. I would play your opponent again with the same lists, stay flying until you have mopped up all your opponents firewarrriors with your flyrant and hide the zoans till this is achieved. The zoans can then come out and deal with the suits/hammerhead.

You can also zoom over the top of the hammerhead and shoot it in it's rear armour but the first thing you want to do is mop up the fire warriors as they put out an insane amount of firepower with an ethereal around.

This is definitely as you say a shooting edition. The good guns on Tyranids can be effective enough and do a fair amount of damage but Tau are pure shooting so you're going to be hard pressed to compete there. Two or three Biovores will work wonders in small points games, they are really good. At low points you might consider a few dirt-cheap units of deep striking spore mines, or rippers as has been suggested, or if you can track down Meiotic Spores/Mucolids running the Sporefield from Shield of Baal is actually pretty good against a gunline army. If you do use Zoanthropes don't bother running them in one unit, run three units of one to spread out Synapse and get more chances at good Psychic Powers. You pass up the Neurothrope but that guy doesn't work well unless you have a bazillion other threats or a Tyrnannocyte. I've won most of my games vs. Tau with Tyranids but it's always tricky and you absolutely have to take full advantage of terrain. Your low model count means it'll be tough to use Synapse properly against these units (i.e. tarpit suits and the like with Gaunts). Two minimum sized units of each might start to work if you also bring a Venomthrope, but then you're looking at a 750 point game. You'll lose First Blood but most likely win on Objectives.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Buy yourself two more Flyrants and field all three

To the OP:

I strongly recommend against doing this. While it would technically make your army stronger, it's very much a TFG, cheesy strategy.

Save that for large tournaments.

He's playing Tyranids. He is not drowning in options for chances to win.

In which case it's better to lose gracefully.

Better advice/real talk: ask your mate to tone his army down if you always lose against him. He can't enjoy winning that much surely? I don't...

And to people suggesting that 3x flyrant in casual isn't cheese, I am gobsmacked.

The reality is that the simple pulse rifle can easily be made to clear more than double the wounds against Tyranid MCs than bolter-armed models. This is on top of HYMP and Stormsurges.

whirlwindstruggle wrote:In which case it's better to lose gracefully.

Better advice/real talk: ask your mate to tone his army down if you always lose against him. He can't enjoy winning that much surely? I don't...

And to people suggesting that 3x flyrant in casual isn't cheese, I am gobsmacked.

I don't think that the opponent's army is particularly "strong." It's more or less solid, but there are no riptides or other clearly OP gak in it.

Before he asks his friend to tone down his list, he should rule out the possibility of obvious tactical errors on his part.

For example, failing to keep his dakka flyrant in the air and blasting his opponent with S4 shooting and psychic witchfires.

Hi everyone.

Thanks again for all the comments on this. I have since won my first ever game! Unfortunately, my openly quickly realised the Swooping Flyrant is the main threat, and so upgraded half his army (crisis suits, broadsides etc.) to have Skyfire! So now I'm sort of back to sq.1.

Is there any way to combat Tau who have Skyfire? Perhaps force a points reduction by having lots of cheap units? I'm running:

Flyrant w/TLDBW and Regen (haven't seen Regen work yet!)

2 units of 10 base Terms (objective grabbers/fodder)
1 unit 12 Horms with toxin (assault threat/tar pit)

1 Lictor (homing beacon for Mawloc)
3 Zoans (in 2 squads)

Mawloc w/Regen (again haven't seen it work).

My deep striking Lictor and Mawloc seem unreliable and don't come in before the Flyrants dead, meaning I can't split the fire focus. Tau seem to easily wipe out 6 wounds in one round of shooting. In an 820 point game!

Not being able to assault on the turn it arrives makes the Mawloc useless if it misses it's Terror From the Deep attack (e.g. If it comes in before the Lictor), because my opponent can focus kill it in 1 turn as I said.

Any advice is welcome, including new units to buy. I was thinking of creating an army around lictors and mawlocs, but I love collecting too so happy to have more varied units.

Thanks!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I forgot to say, the Tau force is:

Commander in crisis suit (I think - it's an FMC) w/drones

3 X Crisis battlesuits (they have about 3 weps including missile pods which are brutal!)

2 broadsides

Tank thing with rail gun etc.

Few squads of fire warriors with missile turrets etc.

Thanks.

A venomthrope or Malanthrope are a must in most Nid armies. I find the Mawloc very hit and miss but a neat trick is to start with him on the table in a corner somewhere then burrow with him so he is in ongoing reserves to auto come in 2nd turn. Lictors are unfortunately not viable by themselves as they tend to get focused out quickly for the threat they are or if you DS with them they never arrive when you need them. Getting a bunch more and using Deathleaper's formation is a good option as it saturates the opponent in threats which makes sure at least one survives to guide in your Mawloc. Also it takes a very valuable elites spot which is needed for Zoanthropes/Venomthropes/Malanthropes(mostly Malanthropes they are the best.)

You can't burrow Turn1 anymore. Because Nids needed another nerf in their Codex from 6th to 7th! *thumbsup*