How tough is the average ork (Knowledge needed for fluff purposes)

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**G00fySmiley**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
The Ork is tougher than a human, but not as tough as a Space Marine.

Where is your canon example of a marine being grafted a whole new body and not dying? There is a reason Orks don't put their mortally wounded into dreadnought. It's because they don't have mortally wounded, they can always be healed. Though to be honest it is also because if Orks could be mortally wounded, other orks would call a mortally wounded ork “meal” .

gotta echo this, if anything fluff wise a ork is probably tougher than a space marine from a being able to withstand more punishment perspective. its when you add the armor that the marines would edge them out as the ork boy basically wears a tshirt into battle. strength wise the SM would probably be able to do more damage than an ork but it would be close

**War Kitten**

An Ork is just as tough as a Space Marine (maybe more so), but the two are pretty well matched in terms of strength. What sets the Marine apart is the armor, the weapons, and the training.

Basically things like Lasguns take several direct hits to down an Ork, and I remember reading stuff about Orks getting their heads grafted onto another body and just getting up and walking about as normal.

**TheCustomLime**

Somewhat tougher than a human but a lot less tough than an Astartes is what I got out of the lore. An Autogun will kill one fairly easily but individual toughness, as another poster said, was never the Orks' strong point.

**Grimgold**

Gorka Morka had a lot of details on ork life, and they are stupidly tough. Outside of having very few vital organ to hit, and the ability to regenerate wounds, they also seem to have an impossibly high pain tolerance. There is a story of an Ork loosing his arm in battle and not noticing until the fight was over and he went to pick something up. If space marines are more resistant to damage, it's only due to the protection of the black carapace, because in terms of sheer ability to survive there are few things that can match an ork.

**TheWanderer**

I would side with the "as tough as a marine" side on this.

And to be honest while marines have some pretty impressive recovery skills and special organs and whatnot I would suggest Orks are actually tougher.

Fluff armour aside a naked ork vs a naked marine I think i would be betting on the ork

**Ashiraya**

Orks may have better recovery, but they seem a lot more vulnerable to burst damage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

War Kitten wrote:
An Ork is just as tough as a Space Marine (maybe more so), but the two are pretty well matched in terms of strength. What sets the Marine apart is the armor, the weapons, and the training.

They are 'well matched' in the sense that the ork is a bit stronger than a human, but where exceptional human can give the Ork a run for his money, whereas the Marine can lift a big truck, tear tracks, sponsons and turrets off tanks, and the like. I'd estimate a Marine is 4-5 times stronger - about on par with a Nob, with some variance depending on the Nob.

**G00fySmiley**

Ashiraya wrote:
Orks may have better recovery, but they seem a lot more vulnerable to burst damage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

War Kitten wrote:
An Ork is just as tough as a Space Marine (maybe more so), but the two are pretty well matched in terms of strength. What sets the Marine apart is the armor, the weapons, and the training.

They are 'well matched' in the sense that the ork is a bit stronger than a human, but where exceptional human can give the Ork a run for his money, whereas the Marine can lift a big truck, tear tracks, sponsons and turrets off tanks, and the like. I'd estimate a Marine is 4-5 times stronger - about on par with a Nob, with some variance depending on the Nob.

what are you basing this on? seems more like a fan perspective than somebody who has read the books. space marines cannot lift a large truck, maybe like a pickup, and cannot tear off turrets with their bare hands etc. they are much stronger than a human sure, they are super human but not like superman level. They can dismantle a tank with equipment like a power fist, melta bombs, grenades, or a well placed shot. therein is the main differences between an ork and a space marine training and discipline. That said the space marine cannot have his head blown off and reattached later, or survive their brains hanging out of their head and just sewn back up with brain parts from another ork or a squigg. from the fluff universe the ork has the edge on being able to take absolute absurd amounts of punishment, the space marine just has the training and strength to deal more dmg than the ork can deal with whereas the ork is going to have a hard time with the armor meaning the astrates can deal with several orks at a time.

**Ashiraya**

G00fySmiley wrote:
what are you basing this on? seems more like a fan perspective than somebody who has read the books.

No, it sounds like you have not read the books.

Legion of the Damned page 206 wrote:Ezrachi heard that he was so unrelenting on the battlefield that on the midnight plains of Menga-Dardra, a Black Legion Land Raider slammed into him with its dozer blade, ran him down and crushed him beneath its tracks, only for the mauled and buckled Skase to get back to his feet and rush back into the heart of the fighting.

Legion of the Damned page 651 wrote:Umbragg reached the wall first, shouldering his power armoured way straight through the masonry to appear like a conjured daemon before the shocked and terrified stream of Charnel Guard and armed cemetery worlders flooding into the passageway.

Fallen Angels page 475 wrote:Kohl grabbed the Techmarine’s arm and draped it over his shoulder, then took hold of Askelon’s waist with his left hand. ‘I could carry two of you without breaking a sweat,’ the sergeant growled.

(Worth noting is that Marines can weigh from ~300kg to many tonnes depending on source)

A Thousand Sons page 143 wrote:The strength in his arms built, the strength to shatter steel and buckle the hull of an armoured vehicle. He pictured exactly where his fists would strike.

Hammer & Bolter 15 page 17-18 wrote:‘Micos?’ Nisroc’s vox went unanswered. He turned to the other Flesh Tearer. ‘I am fine, Apothecary,’ Micos snarled, throwing his ruined helmet across the chamber. ‘A flesh wound. ’ The Apothecary cast his gaze over Micos. A blackened hole sat where his right eye should have been and his face was a mess of dark scabs. ‘As you say, brother.'

Nemesis page 636 wrote:A fuzzy image swam into focus; grey blobs became the distinct shapes of Adeptus Astartes in Maximus-pattern armour, moving to block the path of the monorail. As the Callidus watched, they dragged the husks of burned-out vehicles across the line, assembling a makeshift barricade.

Hammer & Bolter 17 wrote:Their fight was not about who was the best, but about who was left standing. Grendel sent a vicious right cross at the Newborn’s jaw, the fist driving with enough force to pulp rock. The Newborn swayed aside, but Grendel’s elbow jabbed, cracking it in the jaw and hurling it from its feet.

Warriors of Ultramar page 196 wrote:That is good to know, Major Satria. The warrior spirit of Ultramar is in you.” Satria beamed with pride at the compliment as they eased past a madly revving supply truck. Laden with two-dozen frightened citizens of Erebus, its back wheels had sunk into the churned soil of the road and, behind it, angry horns blared continuously, as though their owners believed sheer volume of noise alone could shift the immobilised truck. Fountains of mud and chunks of grit from its spinning back wheels sprayed the limousine behind the truck, cracking its windscreen and leaving streaks of bare metal where they ripped across its pristine bodywork. The driver of the truck continued gunning the engine, oblivious to the damage he was causing, gasoline rainbows forming in the clouds of filthy blue oilsmoke jetting from the track’s exhaust.
...
Major Satria banged on the cab of the truck and made a chopping motion across
his throat to the driver. Immediately, its engine shut down and the noise of the protesting motor faded to a throaty rumble as Satria made his way towards the limousine.
...
“Did you see what that imbecile has done?” he snapped. “I did indeed, Mister van Gelder, and if you’ll just bear with us, we’ll get you on your way as soon as we can find some planks to put under the back wheels of this track and get it out of the mud.”
“I want that wretched driver’s name so that I can be properly compensated upon my return to Tarsis Ultra.”
“I assure you that I shall attend to the matter, sir,” soothed Satria. “Now, if you’ll just return to the lovely heated interior of your limousine, we’ll soon have you out of the city.”
Before van Gelder could reply, a groan of metal sounded from behind the major. Satria turned to see Sergeant Learchus effortlessly lifting the back end of the fully laden truck from the sucking mud and push it forwards to more solid ground. The sergeant dropped the truck to the road and almost immediately it sped off to the spaceport.
Satria had heard of the great strength of Space Marines, but had thought that most were overblown exaggerations. Now he knew better.

Blood Ravens Omnibus wrote:Jonas dug his fingertips down into the sand next to the tablet, feeling along its length for a crack. With a slight nod of satisfaction, he found some leverage with his index finger and drove it underneath the stone. With a faint grimace of effort, the librarian prised the slab of rock off the ground; it pivoted along the far edge, as though hinged, and cascades of sand fell away, revealing the full extent of the object. The tablet was nearly two metres long, perhaps a metre wide, and at least ten centimetres thick.
As she approached, Meritia shook her head in amusement. Jonas hadn't even noticed that he had just lifted more with the index finger of one hand than most men could have done with the strength of their entire bodies.

Brothers of the Snake page 142 wrote:Priad flexed the long, segmented fingers of the metal glove, and watched as blue sparks hissed from digit to digit. The claw weighed close to seventy kilos and was three times the size of a human hand. But even without the strength enhancing mechanics of his Mark VII power armor, Priad would not have been tested by the weight.

Flesh and Iron wrote:During a particular training exercise in ambush methods, a fledgling Disciple was crashed by his own poorly-rigged log trap. One of the four - Gabre - simply levered the half-tonne log off the dead man and Mautista saw with his own eyes the way Gabre barely strained to lift it.

40k is jam-packed with examples like this and I can keep this up for a long time. I recommend reading Marine lore before presuming to make statements about them.

People often accuse Marines of ''fanwanking'' but Orks are arguably much worse in trying to make their race pass off for more than they are.

Don't make mistakes and look at the game stats here. This is the background forum, and the Marines of GW's written lore are far from the nerfed abstractions they throw at you in their dubious rulesets.

**Spetulhu**

Ashiraya wrote:
40k is jam-packed with examples like this and I can keep this up for a long time. I recommend reading Marine lore before presuming to make statements about them.

Yes, that tabletop S4 is already several times the strength of an ordinary man. Then add in the power armor enhancing it (and bracing the marine's already impressively strengthened bone structure) and he'll be if not Superman then at least superhuman times two. The PA also accounts for some of the survival even if the marine does have a lot of physical improvements - as I recall there's a built-in automedic capable of dispensing painkillers, stims, anti-venom and more exotic drugs in an instant if the marine is wounded (or combat drugs if he's from a more unhinged Chapter). One without his PA wouldn't be lifting trucks without an effort and he surely wouldn't ignore as serious hits.

The marine alone is already impressive, his equipment makes him able to pass as a god of war. The average ork is not on that level, but if you see one you're probably about to meet a dozen.

**Ashiraya**

Yeah, the Orks' strength is definitely in numbers. Marines carve through Orks with ease but there are millions of Orks or more for each Marine.

**DontEatRawHagis**

In The Beast Arises the Adeptus Mechanicus has an Ork "corpse" while they call it a cadaver the Techpriest Biologis admits that it's brain is still alive allowing the cadaver to activate Ork weapons even though they shouldn't possibly work. They even hack its arm off and it's still "alive". All it probably needs is a Painboy.

In the same book they kill 3 Imperial Fists during surgery. To be fair they said that only Adeptus Astartes would know how to recover the Fists from their stasis caccons.

But it says something that the Ork was surviving a brutal autopsy while the twchpriests wanted to save the Space Marines

**Phydox**

An ork bandaid is a strip of metal with a hole at both ends, and two wood screws. Most Umies won't even splash their face in the morning with cold water.

**JimOnMars**

Phydox wrote:
An ork bandaid is a strip of metal with a hole at both ends, and two wood screws. Most Umies won't even splash their face in the morning with cold water.

Pretty much this.

I'm kind of wondering why this is even a discussion. It seems more a problem of definition to me--If you can hack off a guys head and put it back on, that's tough. If that isn't tough, it is something else, and then in that case, the marine might be tougher.

But I'm not buying it. The marine is superior in all other ways.

But hacking off and reattaching heads? Shouldn't that trump just about everything?

**Ashiraya**

That is how easy you are to heal. It does not mean you are more resistant to damage.

For comparison, children heal much faster than adults even if you count in the proportional size difference, but no one expects the child to be more resilient.

**TheCustomLime**

JimOnMars wrote:
Phydox wrote:
An ork bandaid is a strip of metal with a hole at both ends, and two wood screws. Most Umies won't even splash their face in the morning with cold water.
Pretty much this.

I'm kind of wondering why this is even a discussion. It seems more a problem of definition to me--If you can hack off a guys head and put it back on, that's tough. If that isn't tough, it is something else, and then in that case, the marine might be tougher.

But I'm not buying it. The marine is superior in all other ways.

But hacking off and reattaching heads? Shouldn't that trump just about everything?

No, that just means the Ork's body parts aren't dependent on each other to survive. You can chop off body parts of plants too and reattach it to other plants and it will survive.

**DontEatRawHagis**

TheCustomLime wrote:
JimOnMars wrote:
Phydox wrote:
An ork bandaid is a strip of metal with a hole at both ends, and two wood screws. Most Umies won't even splash their face in the morning with cold water.
Pretty much this.

I'm kind of wondering why this is even a discussion. It seems more a problem of definition to me--If you can hack off a guys head and put it back on, that's tough. If that isn't tough, it is something else, and then in that case, the marine might be tougher.

But I'm not buying it. The marine is superior in all other ways.

But hacking off and reattaching heads? Shouldn't that trump just about everything?

No, that just means the Ork's body parts aren't dependent on each other to survive. You can chop off body parts of plants too and reattach it to other plants and it will survive.

The other point is that they don't feel pain when losing limbs. To an Ork losing an arm just means a trip to a Painboy or "Getz a new power klaw!" They don't cry about how it feels like hell, they just get on with it.

**Melissia**

Orks are about as tough as Marines.

Multiple redundant internal organs, powerful builds with sturdy bones, the ability to withstand grievous injury and not care, etc.

Orks are actually probably a little bit tougher than Marines, actually, because of their ability to lose their heads (literally) and survive as long as the head is strapped on any Orkoid body in the next week or so.

**Ashiraya**

Orks are probably easier to heal because of their partially fungal nature, which allows them to swap body parts etc. But in the terms of who would absorb more bolter hits before dying, etc., I have not seen any evidence in the Orks' favour.

**DontEatRawHagis**

Ashiraya wrote:
Orks are probably easier to heal because of their partially fungal nature, which allows them to swap body parts etc. But in the terms of who would absorb more bolter hits before dying, etc., I have not seen any evidence in the Orks' favour.

Take a Space Marine out of his armor and he'll die to a bolter hit faster than an Ork. Orks might look dead on the tabletop after a marine volley fire, but get a Painboy there and they will be back for a scrap.

**TheCustomLime**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
JimOnMars wrote:
Phydox wrote:
An ork bandaid is a strip of metal with a hole at both ends, and two wood screws. Most Umies won't even splash their face in the morning with cold water.
Pretty much this.

I'm kind of wondering why this is even a discussion. It seems more a problem of definition to me--If you can hack off a guys head and put it back on, that's tough. If that isn't tough, it is something else, and then in that case, the marine might be tougher.

But I'm not buying it. The marine is superior in all other ways.

But hacking off and reattaching heads? Shouldn't that trump just about everything?

No, that just means the Ork's body parts aren't dependent on each other to survive. You can chop off body parts of plants too and reattach it to other plants and it will survive.

The other point is that they don't feel pain when losing limbs. To an Ork losing an arm just means a trip to a Painboy or "Getz a new power klaw!" They don't cry about how it feels like hell, they just get on with it.

Not feeling pain doesn't make you resistant to damage. This is a question of how many bullets you can absorb. Not whether or not you can enter the Salty Spitoon.

Okay, I'll see myself out now.

In all seriousness, there is a human medical condition that leaves people unable to feel pain. It does not make them able to take more bullets to the chest and walk away.

**Ashiraya**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

Take a Space Marine out of his armor and he'll die to a bolter hit faster than an Ork.

I'm going to have to ask you to give me a citation.

Orks might look dead on the tabletop after a marine volley fire, but get a Painboy there and they will be back for a scrap.

This is the background forum. You seem to have taken a wrong turn; 40k Tactics is over here.

**Melissia**

Ashiraya wrote:
Orks are probably easier to heal because of their partially fungal nature, which allows them to swap body parts etc. But in the terms of who would absorb more bolter hits before dying, etc., I have not seen any evidence in the Orks' favour.

That's only because you haven't seen massed Marine formations trying to charge a gunline without their power armor on.

You're comparing apples to oranges, and it shows.

**Ashiraya**

Melissia wrote:

That's only because you haven't seen massed Marine formations trying to charge a gunline without their power armor on.

Because they have no need to. They have power armour, and going without it is a disadvantage. So why would they do it?

You're comparing apples to oranges, and it shows.

Apples and oranges also have different resistances to bolter fire. They can thus be compared.

**Phydox**

Im surprised the thread has gone this far without someone criticizing gdub for giving orks the same strength as guardsmen.

In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, Gaunt jumps on a trakk and has to use two hands and strain to turn the throttle on the handle bars to give it gas.

**brainscan**

Phydox wrote:
Im surprised the thread has gone this far without someone criticizing gdub for giving orks the same strength as guardsmen.

In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, Gaunt jumps on a trakk and has to use two hands and strain to turn the throttle on the handle bars to give it gas.

i recall that. it was like he was a child driving a tractor.

**Melissia**

Ashiraya wrote:
Apples and oranges also have different resistances to bolter fire. They can thus be compared.

No they don't. Unarmored Space Marines die to bolter fire all the same as unarmored Orks.

You really don't understand the insane protective quality of power armor, do you? I mean FFS, Sisters of Battle, mere humans, are able to APPEAR to their enemies as if they're pretty much just as tough as Space Marines, because Sisters of Battle wear power armor, too.

**Ashiraya**

Melissia wrote:
No they don't. Unarmored Space Marines die to bolter fire all the same as unarmored Orks.

Again, citation needed.

If you are going to cite game mechanics on me, I will happily point out that the ''''''''''''''''''''''elite'''''''''''''''''' fully trained Battle Sister Squads are outclassed in melee skills by Space Marine recruits if we trust the stats.

And please, let's not trust the stats.

You really don't understand the insane protective quality of power armor, do you? I mean FFS, Sisters of Battle, mere humans, are able to APPEAR to their enemies as if they're pretty much just as tough as Space Marines, because Sisters of Battle wear power armor, too.

Oh, PA is very protective indeed, but that does not make the man under the plating any weaker.

Also, citation needed on the final sentence, about how they appear to be as tough.

Seriously, Melissia, I do not want a fight. I just want to see where you get your stuff from. I can link stuff of Space Marines doing everything from shrugging off autocannon fire and entire grenade bandoliers to falling kilometers and just walking it off. But I want to see what Ork material you have.

**OgreChubbs**

Ashiraya wrote:
Melissia wrote:
No they don't. Unarmored Space Marines die to bolter fire all the same as unarmored Orks.

Again, citation needed.

If you are going to cite game mechanics on me, I will happily point out that the ''''''''''''''''''''''elite'''''''''''''''''' fully trained Battle Sister Squads are outclassed in melee skills by Space Marine recruits if we trust the stats.

And please, let's not trust the stats.

You really don't understand the insane protective quality of power armor, do you? I mean FFS, Sisters of Battle, mere humans, are able to APPEAR to their enemies as if they're pretty much just as tough as Space Marines, because Sisters of Battle wear power armor, too.

Oh, PA is very protective indeed, but that does not make the man under the plating any weaker.

Also, citation needed on the final sentence, about how they appear to be as tough.

Seriously, Melissia, I do not want a fight. I just want to see where you get your stuff from. I can link stuff of Space Marines doing everything from shrugging off autocannon fire and entire grenade bandoliers to falling kilometers and just walking it off. But I want to see what Ork material you have.

The armour makes the man, I forget what HH book they mention it but all marines are being destroyed and one of them walks out in terminator armour and destroys the tank. Another occasion has a bunch of butchered marines laying on a path to take a ciditial and 1 terminator wlks threw the path killing everyone. It even mentions how there is joints to help increase their strength.

Orks are like naked marines.

**Ashiraya**

OgreChubbs wrote:
The armour makes the man

The HH books actually specifically made a point of the armour not making the man.

Let me dig out Horus Rising and find it.

**Kojiro**

Ashiraya wrote:
Oh, PA is very protective indeed, but that does not make the man under the plating any weaker.

I think this needs fleshing out. That is to say how is the OP defining 'tough'?

Orks have an almost zombie like physiology, in that normally grievous do not incapacitate them immediately the way such would a human. In that capacity they're significantly tougher than humans and will keep fighting on. There's also the fact that their hides are more durable than human skin, probably on par with leather armour. Lastly they have incredible healing capacities with extreme resistance to disease and infection. Not Wolverine incredible but far superior to humans.

So Orks probably aren't significantly- for 40k weapons- hard to cause damage to. But like a zombie, just because you put a bullet it in doesn't mean it's going down. Their toughness isn't so much that they're resistant to damage as they have a large capacity to wear it. Marines achieve similar by having redundant organs, blood coagulants, pain muting and other tricks orks have innately.

So they're still flesh and blood, just flesh that doesn't feel pain or need a whole lot of that blood. At least that's my take.