Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Their fluff in regards to having intensive, from childhood, training isnt new (just the absurd harry potter Hogwarts torture porn Schola stuff), and they used to be Ld8 base before the 5E book. They certainly have every reason to be at least Ld8 base, Sisters are, IG sergeants are, SM Scouts are, Stormtroopers have gone through at least as much as these units.

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Last time I checked weren't guardsmen supposed to be the best of the best from a recruiting worlds planet.... I thought a mandatory blamming was given to governors who provided substandard troops without reason?

I would say fluffwise they're closer to normal guardsmens LD than SM.... especially seeing traditionally stormtroopers didn't A) used to be as indocrinated as they are now or B) Only represent inquisitorial storm troopers

Some IG's get very good training comparable or better than what real world armies get, some get lesser. Planets are required to provide periodically certain number of regiments but how they provide is another thing.

Some provide basic training, some provide good training, some provide drafted criminals...

Vaktathi & I have discussed this several times in the past. In short, because whomever is writing the rules at Games Workshop has no idea what they are doing. Stormtroopers (not calling them scions) like many units in the imperial guard (not calling it AM), are for the most part broken. Sure they can be used in niche situations and excel, but the vast majority of the time you are better off with alternative choices. They do not fulfill the role they were meant to (shock troops/objective takers).

Ogryn, Bullgryn, Stormtroopers, Rough Riders, Ratlings...the list goes on of terrible units that put you at a disadvantage the moment they are deployed. They have been terrible edition after edition. Despite what common sense would suggest, rather than improving said units by lowering their point cost & increasing utility, GW has decided to double down time & time again by ignoring them or making them worse.

We have to keep in mind that this is the company who turned down Blizzard entertainment & lost billions of dollars as a result, decided to wage war with independent friendly local gaming stores in a move to force everyone to purchase through their online store minimizing the games exposure to a fraction of what it used to be.

Keep up the great work GW

TheMostWize wrote:
My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

In are enough options to get Guard vehicles in this edition.

Guard Transport

chimaera -> Get them from the inquisiton. For the tax of one inquisitor ( 25 points decent stats weapons and LD 10! ) and 3 dirt cheap msu units (with the best weapon options) you can buy 3 of them.
The bonus of this is is that I chimaera are superior. They have firing holes instead of crappy las batteries.

Guard Fast stuff
Sentinels -> Emperor's Talon Recon Company
Any Flyer you would like -> Use the Air supremacy detachment

Guard heav stuff.

Rus tanks -> Emperor's Fist Armoured Company
Artillery tanks -> Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company:

Bane blades ->Emperor's Fury Super-Heavy Company

Try running scions with fortifications, they really open up options for them. (Especially wall of martyrs sets)

Storm Troopers have been needing a buff for the last few editions and there is not much that we can do sadly. I would probably go along with

+1 WS
Hellgun (NOT Hotshot) becomes S4 AP3 Assault 3
Hell Volleygun becomes Salvo 3/5
LD becomes 8. Sarge 9
All models get a Hellpistol and CCW

And suddenly they become useable. They are still far squishier than Marines but now they have the gear and ability to be scary and used as they where intended.

tneva82 wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).

S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

Yea I agree that they could use some tweaks. Everything on every book cannot be the best unit in the book and I think everyone understands that.

The problem as has been stated is that there are so many units in 40k that have literally no role. They are so bad at everything that no one will take them because something else fits the role better. Or perhaps they are too specialized and because of that you don't waste points on something that can do one thing before it stands there the rest of the game. Maybe making all units more specialized would help this instead of having units be able to fulfill 3 battlefield roles all at one time.

 drunken0elf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).

S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

Hellguns post 2nd ed were S3 AP5.

 drunken0elf wrote:
S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

They already have access to S4.

Volleygun - S4 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24"

The S3 Lasguns themselves are somewhat redeemed by the Tempestus orders, which can either confer Sniper or Rending. There's also a WL trait that increases the range of the their rifles out to 24". Of course, Guard players don't get either of those perks, or Scions/DTs with Obsec.

I've noticed that old school Guard players ("It's not Astra Militarum! I'm calling them Stormtroopers! Get off my lawn!") have a markedly negative view of Scions, whereas players who embraced the MT codex seem overall positive.

Is there any advantage at all to running Scions as IG Elites?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:
S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

They already have access to S4.

Volleygun - S4 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24"

The S3 Lasguns themselves are somewhat redeemed by the Tempestus orders, which can either confer Sniper or Rending. There's also a WL trait that increases the range of the their rifles out to 24". Of course, Guard players don't get either of those perks, or Scions/DTs with Obsec.

I've noticed that old school Guard players ("It's not Astra Militarum! I'm calling them Stormtroopers! Get off my lawn!") have a markedly negative view of Scions, whereas players who embraced the MT codex seem overall positive.

Is there any advantage at all to running Scions as IG Elites?

Access to Platoons (which is an "advantage" that is extremely situational at best and really not worth losing ObSec. for, though it technically allows you to run more Scions as Guard elites than you can run in a Scions CAD) as well as being able to receive the Ignores Cover order, which is indeed a big one. Also having access to a wide range of fire support options within the same detachment.

Volleyguns? top kek. for 10pts, we go for a melta hands down.

The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

Storm troopers are most assuredly lack luster and their weaponry is the clearest reason for that. They do not adequately eliminate enemy infantry units in such a way as render them capable of taking an objective. Rending is essentially useless when the weapon is already ap3 and even then, the largest limitation to damage output is the strength of the weapon. Sniping is quite hilarious as if I wanted a sniper unit I would buy the ratling units which have a much longer range, can infiltrate, and cost less. With sniping, they lose their mobility and thus lose the ability to, you know, storm objectives. But they are just marginally better than guardsman and don't deserve the ability to shoot space marines, or other "stronger" units.

Why can't an imperial guard unit be able to storm an objective with specially trained troops?

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

yes, Orders help, but are also a highly variable factor and additional cost, and usually still will not make them worth their points, there's too many problems with the weak S and short range to overcome with just Orders in most cases.

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

I assume that everyone loves sniping with 18" ranged guns or rending with AP3?

The real reason guard players won't use them for purposes outside of Drop Melta is that they already have one of the best anti-infantry options in 40k, the Wyvern. AV12 Chimera hulls and 48" Barrage have a much better synergy with their troops choices.

More orders from the Command Squad would be nice, and the Command Vehicle rule for the Taurox Prime. But considering Tempestus can go toe-to-toe with Battle Company -- in a CAD with no bonuses -- I don't think the actual unit is wildly broken, at least in its own codex.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/05/04/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tournament-report/

Yoyoyo wrote:
The real reason guard players won't use them for purposes outside of Drop Melta is that they already have one of the best anti-infantry options in 40k, the Wyvern. AV12 Chimera hulls and 48" Barrage have a much better synergy with their troops choices.

More orders from the Command Squad would be nice, and the Command Vehicle rule for the Taurox Prime. But considering Tempestus can go toe-to-toe with Battle Company -- in a CAD with no bonuses -- I don't think the actual unit is wildly broken, at least in its own codex.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/05/04/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tournament-report/

They cost as much as Space Marines do but have a far shittier profile, a weapon that is barely useful and no special rules or abilities to make up for this. There is no way anyone can claim Stories are balanced.

Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Tac Squads also have a LOT for the 2 point difference between the two. Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, drop pods for alpha striking, better stats. And they don't need orders to be effective.

TheMostWize wrote:
Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Space marines are standard Ld 8.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

 Grimskul wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Tac Squads also have a LOT for the 2 point difference between the two. Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, drop pods for alpha striking, better stats. And they don't need orders to be effective.

Agreed on most points, save for the drop pod one. As a separate unit, they should not factor in a straightforward discussion.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations. Plus most of the weapons you get for Tacticals (Flamer, Plasma Gun, and Melt Gun) are available to Scions. You can argue for Grav Guns, but nobody buys those on Tactical Marines.
2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.
3. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.
4. MTC and Deep Strike can be seen as Chapter Tactics, but I'll mostly concede on this point.

Tactical Marines suck. The inability to take two Special Weapons at any number and a very meh basic weapon doesn't do anyone favors. Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

they can get DS thats far safer, comes with all sorts of shennanigan options, for a very low price, while being superior in just about every way. MTC is pretty minor as far as abilities go, especially in an infantry unit thats dies like basic guardsmen in assaults.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

they can get DS thats far safer, comes with all sorts of shennanigan options, for a very low price, while being superior in just about every way. MTC is pretty minor as far as abilities go, especially in an infantry unit thats dies like basic guardsmen in assaults.

The Scions can get that too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations.

in most situations it is. Better S, better range, AP only matters against Sv4/3 units, and can be heavily mitigated by cover, and in a straight up fireight in the open, the two units are trading equal casualties, except the SM's have better range

2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.

but the Scions autolose to the Tacs in CC which they are ostensibly kitted to fight. The Tacs can hold or at least hurt anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit, the Scions cannot.

. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.

its generally far more favorable than not, and the LD difference doesnt hurt either.

Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

aside from being far cheaper to do the same job with the same resiliency.The Taurox Prime is painfully expensive for what it offers.

The thing I hate most about Scions is that their HQ can issue one order max, and it's almost always better to issue that order on the HQ itself than another unit because that HQ is packing more special weapons. It's so incredibly frustrating and restricting, not to mention unfluffy.

Classic dakka. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

Engage snark

Your deepstrike woes: if only the Imperium has a 3pt item that could reduce your scatter to D6, while simultaneously shutting down Scout and Infiltration. I guess the search continues.

Rhinos outperforming Taurox Primes: perhaps Taurox Primes might be more useful with 48" S7/S8 shooting and used as fast fire support from cover, rather than gamely transporting troops with native Deepstrike. Oh well. Until then, buying 35pt FA Rhinos from the SM codex really helps Scions get an edge.

Tacs outshooting Scions: I guess we're still patiently waiting on high-volume S4 AP3 shooting to help Scions gain an advantage. *cough* Volleygun *cough* When will the evil GW hear our pleas?

Poor Leadership: It's too bad there's not a Special Rule that buffs them to LD9. Boy. That would be reeeeealllly useful.

CC woes: Let's give them full BS Overwatch! And a IC that has a 4++, Zealot, and let's the whole squad reroll saves! But most importantly, let's not spend points on it.

Ignoring Cover: Well I certainly can't think of anything in the entire Imperium. Can you?

In hindsight, I think the major problem with Scions is that they aren't part of the Imperium. If only we could use allies to help overcome their weaknesses!

Disengage snark

I don't mean to be abrasive but do you see what I'm saying? It's not a forgiving unit, and synergy is necessary. Drop Pods are simple because their scatter and reserves mitigation are inherent. But 6x of them cost over 200pts. You can buy a Comms Relay, Servo-Skulls, and Fleet Officer for the same effect, and it's probably a better investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ExFideFortis wrote:
The thing I hate most about Scions is that their HQ can issue one order max, and it's almost always better to issue that order on the HQ itself than another unit because that HQ is packing more special weapons. It's so incredibly frustrating and restricting, not to mention unfluffy.

Definitely agree on that, though.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Classic dakka. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

Or in this case: We are trying to make an unusable unit use-able

Your deepstrike woes: if only the Imperium has a 3pt item that could reduce your scatter to D6, while simultaneously shutting down Scout and Infiltration. I guess the search continues.

And is not part of the Guard codex. If a codex is so strong because it can ally then, well, I guess we are all equal because we can ally with Eldar.

Rhinos outperforming Taurox Primes: perhaps Taurox Primes might be more useful with 48" S7/S8 shooting and used as fast fire support from cover, rather than gamely transporting troops with native Deepstrike. Oh well. Until then, buying 35pt FA Rhinos from the SM codex really helps Scions get an edge.

The Rhino actually has more armour than the Taurox and is a lot cheaper. Players do not want yet another overpriced IFV, we wanted something that could get our lose quarters troops into position rapidly, not a long range support transport that is heinously overpriced.

Tacs outshooting Scions: I guess we're still patiently waiting on high-volume S4 AP3 shooting to help Scions gain an advantage. *cough* Volleygun *cough* When will the evil GW hear our pleas?

The Volleygun? If that thing is giving you nightmares then go home now. Tacs have a longer range and better overall strength. That AP3 only ever matters if the target is toting a 3+/4+ save and even then terrain will remove its usefulness.

Poor Leadership: It's too bad there's not a Special Rule that buffs them to LD9. Boy. That would be reeeeealllly useful.

Is this another one of those obscure once-per-turn rules from the storm trooper mini codex?

CC woes: Let's give them full BS Overwatch! And a IC that has a 4++, Zealot, and let's the whole squad reroll saves! But most importantly, let's not spend points on it.

If we could we would. But Imperial Guard psykers are stupidly expensive.

Ignoring Cover: Well I certainly can't think of anything in the entire Imperium. Can you?

One order. Per turn. If you pass a LD check on the sole target unit. And are within order range. Have fun.

In hindsight, I think the major problem with Scions is that they aren't part of the Imperium. If only we could use allies to help overcome their weaknesses!

The same can be said for most of the weak codexes. The issue is that you start bringing a couple more allies here and there just to shore up those weaknesses and then you need that one because it does what that unit does but better and then you take another.... And suddenly you find that you are pretty much playing your allied army primarily with your once main one allied too it. And the you realise that your Guard units are nothing but dead weight and you drop them.

I don't mean to be abrasive but do you see what I'm saying?

That you have never given the IG codex a read through ever?

It's not a forgiving unit, and synergy is necessary. Drop Pods are simple because their scatter and reserves mitigation are inherent. But 6x of them cost over 200pts. You can buy a Comms Relay, Servo-Skulls, and Fleet Officer for the same effect, and it's probably a better investment.

Comms relay is of little use, Servo Skulls require Inquisitors, Fleet Officers only serve to either hasten your or slow your opponents reserves.