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I believe the core problem with the game is due to the mechanics being Marine-centric.
It boils down to this - You have an army of supermen vs armies of regular beings that need to fight in some semblance of a fair, fun and competitive game.

The breakdown occurs from the lowliest troops. It's reflected in the prices, and statlines of all other troops in the game minus a few outliers
-Almost all other troops choices in the game are Toughness 3, Strength 3 and have a 5 or worse save but are cheaper, some times significantly cheaper than a marine. But that 1 marine is equal to 1.5 - to 2 or 3 of everyone elses troops or so you're led to believe. Fluff would have it that 1 marine is equal to 10-50 of everyone else's troops.

Fatal Error 1 = In hindsight, it was a mistake to make the marine it's own army.
As the game grew from a skirmish game, Marines shouldn't have been kept as a core army. The raging hard-on that to many people have for Space Marines threw off the ability to balance the game. The marine is the basis for all infantry based unit types in a marine army which leads to the entire army is a capable fighting any unit anyone else has, especially due to the ability to take special/heavy/power weapons, so they always stand a reasonable chance to defeat (almost)every other unit in the game. They're designed to excel against enemy troops but without major modifications.

Fix= Marines should have only ever been allowed to make up a certain percentage of your Imperium army.
I know its blasphemy!

Fatal Error 2 = Every other army's infantry inferior to Marines.
Therefore they had to develop all other armies to have specific counters and play styles to allow them to battle the marine. The general weakness in these armies though, is the troop choice which 90% is worse than a marine. So they're powerful in other ways that usually mean they kill marines easily

Fix = For the sake of game design all other armies should have been similar to marines, in regards to universal statlines and weapons. If the game was setup in such a way where the army of the imperium was the guard with marine help, vs eldar, vs orks etc... you'd have those xenos armies be designed to fight guard and all of their stats and weapons would follow suit.

The Result if the Marine wasn't the focus of the game's design -
Most armies would be similar in nature. Troops would would be roughly equivalent, some elite choices that wouldn't be overly utilized. Probably troop heavy. no real need for heavy weapons in general troop squads.
Marines would be true to their fluff if they were an allied detachment to a main Imperial guard/ Sisters/inquisition force. They would be elite, expensive, not expendable. Not much could kill them because all of the other armies in game would have been designed to fight GEQ level equivalents. Sure those armies would have a few very expensive MEQ level equivalents but you wouldn't see them spammed due to the pricing.
Smaller skirmish games could exist between the Elite level choices of all the armies. Kill team type stuff. I don't think that power creep would be an issue if all of the armies were on roughly the same footing.
Some elite type armies like necrons could still exist but would not be as powerful because they're designed to have to contend with large armies of space marines.

What Marine-centric design has lead to:
-This led to the arms race today. Other factions got introduced with new weapons and interesting designs or older armies go new units, so marines get more tricks and gear, and the circle goes on.
--This was worsened by the seeming lack of play testing that would have shown that the imbalance was circumstantial to the game being marine-centric.

-This is why we ended up with marine killer units. It also means that those units overpower all other units in the game.

-This is why the game is broken and why the game can only be fixed with a major overhaul. Because to be effective you need to effectively be able to kill T4, S4, 3+ in at least shooting or melee.

But it won't happen because I think GW is probably still paying off that giant Marine Statue in front of Head Quarters. It begs the question, if 60-75% of your customers play the army that would have to radically change to make the game balanced, could you ever change that army?

Whats the alternative?
Change every other army to be on par with Space Marines and eliminate power creep?
Make 2 games? Large deployments vs skirmishes?

Am I crazy and its not related to Marines?
What do you think?

It's not related to marines.

Let's look at the history of marines, loyalists, that is:

2nd ed: trash beyond reason. Virtually unplayable. I saw them lose multiple games to Eldar/CSM without even getting a turn. I never won with BA in 2nd, and saw loyalist marine victories that fit on one hand.

3rd ed: very strong at first, reasonable strength by the end. Why only reasonable? That starcannon had a LOT to do with it. It was also the end of terminators being mistaken for durable.

4th ed: I sat this one out, but I don't read too many accounts of marines dominating 4th. Call them reasonable again.

5th ed: They were hot for a bit, but they never truly were better than the 4th ed Ork book and as soon as SW and IG hit, marines were getting their heads handed to them left and right.

6th/7th ed: The trouble times. Grav cannons. Invisibility via Tiggy and then librarian conclave. Formations. Chapter tactics. Endless options.

The gold standard for 40K power lists is Eldar, not marines. The marine statline isn't even that good anymore. Almost all the best marines units AREN'T marines.

I think you are crazy its not marine based

The entire problem with 40k is Power creep and edition changes

and it occurs because the writers that like a particular faction will over write for them. pretty much the dark days of spiritual lineage Matt Ward

now a days the books are credited to a writing department instead of individual writers but i have a feeling they are still for the most part one writer takes the lead and dose what they want.

that and i dont think too many of them really care for some of the other factions so they get very sub par rules.

I agree it's marine based because they are by far the most common army. It makes sense to balance around them.

The imbalance is not caused by marines but the combination of apathy and incompetence of GW.

I think the over usage of re-roll buffs and bonuses is to blame for all the big factions.

Playing against Eldar is only a pain because they can reroll their dice in every phase of the game, sometimes causing you to reroll your own dice, whike Orks or chaos are stuck with (very limited) twin linked weapons only.

This is the most inane thing I have ever heard on Dakkadakka and that is an INCREDIBLE feat. This is a half step up from saying the game is unbalanced because we keep letting models kill each other.

The game will ALWAYS HAVE A BASELINE IT IS BALANCED AGAINST, whether it is marine S4T4I4 Sv 3+ or a guardsman's s3t3i3 Sv5+ is utterly irrelevant, it will end up being roughly the same game. Oh this is a guardsmen's statline, marines are superhuman so what should they be? I know! 4443+! well eldar are quicker than guards and have better tech but around the same strength and toughness what should their statline be? I know! 3353+!

You have allowed whatever personal vendetta drives you against marines to run you miles in the wrong direction. Yes the balance issues are real, yes they need to be dealt with; but, on the other hand, it is not, will not, and could not be due to a single army at this point in the games evolution.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think the over usage of re-roll buffs and bonuses is to blame for all the big factions.

Playing against Eldar is only a pain because they can reroll their dice in every phase of the game, sometimes causing you to reroll your own dice, whike Orks or chaos are stuck with (very limited) twin linked weapons only.

Basically this. There are too many re-rolls/twin linked stuff in the game. As a tau player I can't count the time I rolled and said "good thing they're twin linked". Re-rolls used to be a rarity, now they're everywhere. It also takes the fun out of the game a bit as shocking random things don't happen that often. Play 30k a bit and suddenly the games are much more exciting. Better make that roll!

And formations giving free bonuses everywhere. And shv/gmcs. But not marines being marines.

This entire OP can be summed up in a few words.

"I hate Marines they ruin my fun, they should be removed because Reasons"

You can replace "Marines" with every other army choice in the game right now except Eldar and Maybe Tau.

Every game has a baseline. For all you know CSM could be the Baseline, and everything was built around them, leaving them mediocre.

The game has a power Balance problem, and always has, and probably always will. That problem is the Pendulum of Power Swings between Codex choices on a seemingly random path.

Space Marines may be the Poster Boy army for GW and 40k specifically, but saying the game is problematic because they exist is rather crazy. If they didn't exist, you'd have the game built likely identically around another army's base stats and we would be in the same spot.

Becuse if say Guard was the baseline, Chaos would be the same or better, Eldar would be the same to have the same powers over guard and survive against chaos and so on..

Lets blame the Marines, because as we all know they are without a doubt the most powerful stand alone army in the game every single edition.....wait....thats Eldar not SM....feth.

You are all missing a very poorly worded, but valid point.

If I, a competent and varied player (sisters, csm, daemons, kdk) do not plan on killing space marines in my list, then I get wrecked because everyone else is planning on it. (Or playing marines.)

Think about it, the 3+ has become the defacto standard. If you cannot get a 3+, you better have a vehicle or shrouded/stealth. (Or at least negate damage somehow.)

The point is not "MARINES ARE RUINING THE GAME". The point is that the game is rotating around and around the same gold standard.

The tactical squad, or one of it's variants is generally considered the best unit in the game, for a couple editions now. And not because it's over powered, but because it's "the standard".

Ork players: We should be S4 just like marines!
Imperial Players: We have to take melta or plasma to defeat power armor, grenades and snipers are worthless.
Tau: BS4 or better or you are dead
Eldar: T4 bikes, T3 sucks and marines also have bikes.
CSM: WHY IS MY STUFF WORSE, I AM OLDER! BLARG
Daemons: Blood letters suck because they cannot get near a 3+ reasonably for their cost.

Literally everyone except marine players were overjoyed by the grenades in assault ruling. Why? Those marines all get S6 krak grenades we don't get.

To me the gray knights play like a pyschic version of what marines should be, small but powerful elite units that have glaring weaknesses against larger armies.

Give this idea a thought folks, it has some merit.

Maybe the biggest problem is not Marines existing, but that many, many people play them. This makes them the standard to go against in both competitive and casual scenarios. So lists must take in consideration that Marines will be a frequent opponent.

One way to help metas being more diverse is GW advertising other armies. Tau have some popularity now, but how many people really play Dark Eldar, Chaos Daemons or Astra Militarum, compared to Space Marines and its flavors?

Of course, having balanced codexes to everyone would help people at least start a different army.

So, in summary, a more balanced game, with more advertising to other armies than SM/BA/DA/SW would do good to the game.

ERJAK wrote:
The game will ALWAYS HAVE A BASELINE IT IS BALANCED AGAINST, whether it is marine S4T4I4 Sv 3+ or a guardsman's s3t3i3 Sv5+ is utterly irrelevant, it will end up being roughly the same game.

Except this isn't true because of two problems: power creep and stat compression. The original intent of the game's stat system was that a 2 is cannon fodder, 3 is average, 4 is elite, and 5 is heroic. That's three possible stat values for "normal" units, and one for exceptional characters. But if you make space marines the standard then a 3 is cannon fodder, 4 is average, and 5 is still heroic. Now only only have two possible stat values for "normal" units, and everyone is going to complain that their average units should get 4s because they clearly aren't cannon fodder (for example, GW making all the BS 3 Eldar units BS 4). And then you get more power creep because everyone has to be able to fight the new average. Weapons that have AP 4-6 might as well be AP - and all that matters is AP 2-3, etc. Then of course space marines need their elite stuff to be properly elite, so let's add on even more of a bloated mess of rules because there aren't enough numbers left to do it with the stat line alone.

The biggest problem atm, is GW(The guys, who write the fething rules!). Not the marines.

 sfshilo wrote:
You are all missing a very poorly worded, but valid point.

If I, a competent and varied player (sisters, csm, daemons, kdk) do not plan on killing space marines in my list, then I get wrecked because everyone else is planning on it. (Or playing marines.)

Think about it, the 3+ has become the defacto standard. If you cannot get a 3+, you better have a vehicle or shrouded/stealth. (Or at least negate damage somehow.)

If everybody is gearing at killing 3+ it makes sense to actually go for 4+ or even worse. If you are killing at 3+ save then 3+ save guys wasted their points. Meanwhile 6+ save guy just laughs at your AP3 weapons. You pay for AP you didn't need!

The tactical squad, or one of it's variants is generally considered the best unit in the game, for a couple editions now. And not because it's over powered, but because it's "the standard".

Tactical squad is not generally considered best. It sees use now because of free razorbacks/drop pods. Not because it's good in itself...

Naaris wrote:

Am I crazy and its not related to Marines?

Yup.

Go and play a Marine list based around PA infantry (without the free stuff from Gladius that props it up) vs a hard Eldar or Tau list.
Come back after and tell us if you still feel the same.

YEAH! Marines are to blame! Its all their fault!!

What? Oh....no dont ummmm, dont even pay any mind to those xenos....yeah, yeah i know they have more AP 2 then you can shake a chain sword at......Cmon i mean scatter bikes arnt that bad....what do you mean my phycik phase takes 30 min alone no it does not?!

Ok man cmon, D-wepons in a 1500 point game arnt THAT bad, i know they only used to show up in Apoc games but cmon you guys are totally balanced and fair.

Well, he's right about the fact marines are to blame for the game's issues, but not the reasons for it.

The reason why marines throw the game out of wack is simple, ATSKNF.
Having such a common ability to outright negate nearly every debuff/crowd control/moral effect in the game means that none of them can actually be used (see DE and their LD attacks, all are unplayable because marines are a thing)
This leads to that every new gun can do nothing EXCEPT kill, there is no room for debuffing and the sorts, and they are useless against a large swat of enemies, so they will either be completely unplayable, or insanely powerful against everything that isn't marine, making every non-marine irrelevant.
Once all the guns are just 50 shades of kill efficiency, you start a spiral where you get increasingly buffed defense, matched by increasingly buffed kill power.

Had ATSKNF give a layer of protection against moral effects (like a reroll) rather than outright immunity, there would be design space for alternate attack methods-like debuffing, weapons that specialise at braking moral, etc.
But as long ATSKNF exists, these weapons simply cannont be allowed to exist. they'll either be OP enough to erase anything non-marine, or be inferior to guns that outright kill marines (or quite possibly both, as its not like marines are a rare sight)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, he's right about the fact marines are to blame for the game's issues, but not the reasons for it.

The reason why marines throw the game out of wack is simple, ATSKNF.
Having such a common ability to outright negate nearly every debuff/crowd control/moral effect in the game means that none of them can actually be used (see DE and their LD attacks, all are unplayable because marines are a thing)
This leads to that every new gun can do nothing EXCEPT kill, there is no room for debuffing and the sorts, and they are useless against a large swat of enemies, so they will either be completely unplayable, or insanely powerful against everything that isn't marine, making every non-marine irrelevant.
Once all the guns are just 50 shades of kill efficiency, you start a spiral where you get increasingly buffed defense, matched by increasingly buffed kill power.

Had ATSKNF give a layer of protection against moral effects (like a reroll) rather than outright immunity, there would be design space for alternate attack methods-like debuffing, weapons that specialise at braking moral, etc.
But as long ATSKNF exists, these weapons simply cannont be allowed to exist. they'll either be OP enough to erase anything non-marine, or be inferior to guns that outright kill marines (or quite possibly both, as its not like marines are a rare sight)

Maybe. But there have been plenty of periods where ATSKNF marines were not the top. I'd be fine with removing sweeping altogether from combat in a revised rules set.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, he's right about the fact marines are to blame for the game's issues, but not the reasons for it.

The reason why marines throw the game out of wack is simple, ATSKNF.
Having such a common ability to outright negate nearly every debuff/crowd control/moral effect in the game means that none of them can actually be used (see DE and their LD attacks, all are unplayable because marines are a thing)

Unless there's something I'm missing in regards to ATSKNF, that's absolutely not true.
All ATSKNF does it make it so you automatically pass Fear and Regroup tests, you get to act as normal when Regrouping, and if caught by a Sweeping Advance they remain locked in combat.
That's in the BRB. P157.

This leads to that every new gun can do nothing EXCEPT kill, there is no room for debuffing and the sorts, and they are useless against a large swat of enemies, so they will either be completely unplayable, or insanely powerful against everything that isn't marine, making every non-marine irrelevant.
Once all the guns are just 50 shades of kill efficiency, you start a spiral where you get increasingly buffed defense, matched by increasingly buffed kill power.

That's bunk. There's plenty of things that could be added in for debuffing, it just requires you to actually stop and think--and what's more? Debuffing isn't really something that should be associated with weapons but rather specialized equipment or Psyker abilities.

You want debuffing weapons? Go play Infinity and use Adhesive Launchers.

Had ATSKNF give a layer of protection against moral effects (like a reroll) rather than outright immunity, there would be design space for alternate attack methods-like debuffing, weapons that specialise at braking moral, etc.
But as long ATSKNF exists, these weapons simply cannont be allowed to exist. they'll either be OP enough to erase anything non-marine, or be inferior to guns that outright kill marines (or quite possibly both, as its not like marines are a rare sight)

It gives protection against Fear and Regroup. You can't force them out by simply killing them or having Fear run at them.

Marines aren't the issue. Even Allies shenanigans aren't the issue.

The issue is that there are a large number of codices which are still dealing with a design mentality that is back in the 1990s. The issue is that there are a large number of USRs or just plain classifications within the game that need to be reworked badly, that vehicles need to be put under a microscope and deconstructed until they match their MC counterparts, and any number of things that can be done to make things far better.

Have to disagree that Eldar are the biggest power army out there now, definitely at the start of 7th Edition they were but after the barrage of releases giving Space Marines better and better shenanigans each time I am starting to think that they are now the power army of the game. The flexibility, options and just how strong the recent releases (Psychic Powers, Formations ect.) to me makes them stronger the Eldar in a lot of aspects, I dread facing both equally at this point. Eldar, Necrons, Tau and Marines all have shenanigans and are all top tier hands down, however have to agree Marines are now the top of the pile, feel many on here claim Eldar are because they are Marine players themselves.

 gmaleron wrote:
Have to disagree that Eldar are the biggest power army out there now, definitely at the start of 7th Edition they were but after the barrage of releases giving Space Marines better and better shenanigans each time I am starting to think that they are the power army of the game at this point. The flexibility, options and just how strong the recent releases (Psychic Powers, Formations ect.) to me makes them stronger the Eldar in a lot of aspects, I dread facing both equally at this point.

You can disagree all you want; you're still wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can disagree all you want; you're still wrong.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, "You don't agree with me so you're wrong" grow up maybe? Its an opinion, don't like it its not my problem.

Reading this post actually made me dumber. Are we really calling marines OP because of their 4 base stat-line and 3+ save? Marines die in droves in this game - only useful as fodder. Marines are OP because of super-friends and thunder-wolves. Gladius is really strong BUT it's at the same tier as eldar necron and tau competitive stuff.

I've run gladius 15 times or so now and you would not believe how crappy marines are. Even in numbers of 30-40 they can do anything useful outside of shoot special weapons - that's not really special - much cheaper units can do that.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can disagree all you want; you're still wrong.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, "You don't agree with me so you're wrong" grow up maybe? Its an opinion, don't like it its not my problem.

The issue is that, as has been shown to you and others time and again, Eldar are a VERY strong book. There are very few "bad" options within the book, and the Eldar Warhost detachment and its components are amazing.

There is NOTHING within the recent Marine stuff that really compares to the ability to run a Windrider Host and multiple Wraithknights.

And I disagree, and I have NEVER said Eldar were not a strong book, in fact I have always agreed since the release of their new Codex they were the top army however with the recent shenanigans Marines have acquired especially their new Psychic Powers on top of everything else they already have I feel Marines are on par and even eclipse Eldar in certain aspects now. The same could be said for the other top tier armies like Necrons and to a smaller extent Tau as well based on unique or different aspects found in their codex. The biggest difference I have seen is attitude, don't understand why so many Marine players get so defensive and angry when they are told they are a top tier army and have some things that are just as bad as the other top tier armies or even worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Reading this post actually made me dumber. Are we really calling marines OP because of their 4 base stat-line and 3+ save? Marines die in droves in this game - only useful as fodder. Marines are OP because of super-friends and thunder-wolves. Gladius is really strong BUT it's at the same tier as eldar necron and tau competitive stuff.

I've run gladius 15 times or so now and you would not believe how crappy marines are. Even in numbers of 30-40 they can do anything useful outside of shoot special weapons - that's not really special - much cheaper units can do that.

Thank you. Can you make a kickass SM list? Yes, but Marines are hardly part of it. It's either Grav Centurions, Free Transports, or all bikes. The basic Tac Marine is pretty average and his price tag reflects that.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Thank you. Can you make a kickass SM list? Yes, but Marines are hardly part of it. It's either Grav Centurions, Free Transports, or all bikes. The basic Tac Marine is pretty average and his price tag reflects that.

I don't think anyone is arguing (or at least I hope not) that the standard Tac Marine is what makes them so strong (I don't like using "OP" for describing anything). A standard Guardian for Eldar or Fire Warrior or Necron Warrior are not "OP" either rather much like every top tier army I feel it falls into support options, Formations, Sepcial Rules, wargear ect. where people nowadays may find a little to ridiculous to their liking.

 gmaleron wrote:
And I disagree, and I have NEVER said Eldar were not a strong book, in fact I have always agreed since the release of their new Codex they were the top army however with the recent shenanigans Marines have acquired especially their new Psychic Powers on top of everything else they already have I feel Marines are on par and even eclipse Eldar in certain aspects now. The same could be said for the other top tier armies like Necrons and to a smaller extent Tau as well based on unique or different aspects found in their codex. The biggest difference I have seen is attitude, don't understand why so many Marine players get so defensive and angry when they are told they are a top tier army and have some things that are just as bad as the other top tier armies or even worse.

Probably because of the fact that unlike Tau, Necron, or Eldar?

Choosing a specific Chapter actually affects what you can/can't take, if one uses the Angels of Death supplement and its unique detachments for Iron Hands, Salamanders, Imperial Fists White Scars, or Raven Guard.
As a Raven Guard player, I get told that I have a super strong book. That's great. But guess what?

I have access to ONE of the super strong items in my unique detachment, and it requires me to take an entire friggin' Battle Demi Company to acquire it
I don't have access to Centurions in my Pinion Demi-Company; I need to run a BDC to run a single squad of them.
I don't have access to Librarians or a Conclave, period, in my detachment. I need to run a CAD to bring them in.
I don't have access to Bikers except in the BDC; I do get Scout Bikers via the 10th Company Task Force.
And hey, while we're at it? Everyone else gets to use all of their Chapter Tactics all game long. My most defining Chapter Tactic, the "Strike From the Shadows"(Shrouded) one? It lasts until the start of the second turn and requires the unit to have not started the game in a vehicle or building.

What happens if an Eldar player chooses to pick a specific Craftworld? How about a Tau player picking between FSE or TE?
Nothing, because there is no unique Detachment for Iyanden where Wraith units become more plentiful or a restriction on Bikers if you take Wraith(Iyanden doesn't field too many bikers; they have more Aspect Warriors and Wraith Constructs than Guardians).

So the fact that you play one aspect of Space Marines or in this case chapter that does not fit the mold that doesn't automatically mean Marines are not a top-tier army or are stronger than Eldar in certain aspects. You choose to play with them like that which is cool because Raven guard are awesome however it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of chapter tactics are really strong and are compatible with everything that makes them a top tier Army to begin with.

Singling out a weak aspect of your book to justify an entire range doesn't work, that would be like me saying Eldar suck because storm Guardians are not that good you have to look at it as a whole.

 gmaleron wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Thank you. Can you make a kickass SM list? Yes, but Marines are hardly part of it. It's either Grav Centurions, Free Transports, or all bikes. The basic Tac Marine is pretty average and his price tag reflects that.

I don't think anyone is arguing (or at least I hope not) that the standard Tac Marine is what makes them so strong (I don't like using "OP" for describing anything). A standard Guardian for Eldar or Fire Warrior or Necron Warrior are not "OP" either rather much like every top tier army I feel it falls into support options, Formations, Sepcial Rules, wargear ect. where people nowadays may find a little to ridiculous to their liking.

This is specifically what the OP is saying though.