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I'm new to 7th, and I've never really played an all reserve army. I know there used to be a rule where basically if a player didn't have any models on the table at the end of a turn, they auto lose the game (or something to that effect), even if they still had units in reserve.

How does it work now?

I have a Tyranid list where they are all fliers or all can deepstrike. Can I keep them all in reserves without worrying about auto losing the game?

Any assistance on clearing this up for me is greatly appreciated.

End of a GAME turn. Not player turn.

So, you null deploy and your opponent goes first. Their first turn is wasted, and then your stuff shows up on your turn 1. If you don't have any turn 1 reserves, THEN you lose.

Martel732 wrote:
End of a GAME turn. Not player turn.

So, you null deploy and your opponent goes first. Their first turn is wasted, and then your stuff shows up on your turn 1. If you don't have any turn 1 reserves, THEN you lose.

Thank you.

That clears it up.

Null deployment is pretty strong. My local meta has grown to hate it because it's not fun to fight so now we don't even run null deployment or heavy reserve lists. My poor drop pods lol.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Null deployment is pretty strong. My local meta has grown to hate it because it's not fun to fight so now we don't even run null deployment or heavy reserve lists. My poor drop pods lol.

It has weaknesses, though.

Yeah, null deployment can be a depending on the game type, and can end up handing your oppenent a bunch of easy points if playing the objective cards and you have no way of contesting that first turn. It's still strong, but there is a potential strong disadvantage to giving your opponent an unfettered turn when there are win conditions that don't involve killing the heck out of the enemy.

There's also Interceptor and death marks that can spoil the day of anything dropping in to play.

 LemanRuse wrote:

I'm new to 7th, and I've never really played an all reserve army. I know there used to be a rule where basically if a player didn't have any models on the table at the end of a turn, they auto lose the game (or something to that effect), even if they still had units in reserve.

How does it work now?

I have a Tyranid list where they are all fliers or all can deepstrike. Can I keep them all in reserves without worrying about auto losing the game?

Any assistance on clearing this up for me is greatly appreciated.

Reserves start coming in from turn 2. Some units, such as Drop pods, have special rules that specifically allow them to enter play from reserve on turn 1, rather than turn 2. Tyranids do not have a unit capable of this feat (that I'm aware of) and are not able to deploy 0 units.

If your don't have turn 1 reserve arrivals you can also attempt a null deploy of sorts by keeping a hidden and dug in unit to survive a turn until a big wave of turn 2 reserves come in.

For example I played a game as Tau running the Retaliation Cadre that auto arrives on turn 2 via deep strike. I opted to go 2nd, reserved my entire Hunter Cadre core except for 2 units of Stealth Suits with Homing Beacons, and infiltrated them behind LoS blockers near two objectives. Basically hid to keep them alive until the bottom of turn 2 when most of my army arrived.

ITC missions tend to penalize null deployment heavily. Its one of the thingsI dislike about ITC missions. They gave it a double whammy, including both Maelstrom points which are harder to get if you null deploy and then changed the rules on WHEN you get points as well and sicne it is better to go second when Null Deploying in general, the ITC just gives the finger to it.

It's disappointing.

The GAME itself promotes alpha strikes and instead of tempering the power of some of those new formations and lists, they strengthened them.

Ive always been tempted to try this tactic. Does it fold if you don't get turn 1? I assume you want to get turn 1?

 Nithaniel wrote:
Ive always been tempted to try this tactic. Does it fold if you don't get turn 1? I assume you want to get turn 1?

Generally you want turn two. With nothing to shoot at, your opponent can move around a little bit, but wastes most of his turn.

Then you arrive and shoot him. And in eternal war missions, you get last shot at the objectives.

Maelstrom evens things out by letting him grab objectives on turn one. Psychic heavy armys also get buffs off on turn one.

So while there are times you’d want to go first, second has a lot of perks.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Ive always been tempted to try this tactic. Does it fold if you don't get turn 1? I assume you want to get turn 1?

No. it doesn't fold. Think of it more as an option that is built into your army that isn't necesarily built into theirs.

I have done it for a really long time. Just having my army BUILT for a beta strike made my opponents weary and many of them "made" me go first. Now this wasn't bad because I CAN go first simply by deploying and going to town on them. But in the games I went second in, my army wasn't penalized like theirs was for going second. I had a very definite plan for it built into the force. Whereas if they went second, to them it just meant they had to take it in the face at range from me for a round sooner than they would like. Just forcing that choice on them is good.

To play with Null Deployment, you have to practice it a bit. It's not that scary honestly. It's just a bit unorthodox.

What armies work best with this tactic?

 Nithaniel wrote:
What armies work best with this tactic?

I think most any flavor of marines can pull it off. A lot depends on how you want to do it.

From a vanilla POV:

Salamanders: They get boosts to the kind of point blank weapons you will be spamming.
Ultramarines: Click off the right doctrine on the drop for free re-rolls, maximize your alpha strike
Imperial Fists: Bolter drill + special ammo = carnage.
Iron Hands: Drop dread might not be ideal, but they work, and are fun.

BA and SW can load up with weapons suited for drop armies, but I’m not sure of the details of their lists these days. Should still be viable, if not optimal.

 Nithaniel wrote:
What armies work best with this tactic?

In my experience, Tau Empire and the Adepta Sororitas both currently have a vry good ability to do this. I thik my Necrons can do it really well also.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
What armies work best with this tactic?

In my experience, Tau Empire and the Adepta Sororitas both currently have a vry good ability to do this. I thik my Necrons can do it really well also.

Tau...? We don't have any ' automatically come first turn' unit. Having Infiltration Cadre on the table isn't Null Deployment...
Tell me your secret!

IMO the best null deployment at 1750pts is running a doulbe skyhammer with a libby/tigurius and two tacs with pods.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
What armies work best with this tactic?

In my experience, Tau Empire and the Adepta Sororitas both currently have a vry good ability to do this. I thik my Necrons can do it really well also.

Tau...? We don't have any ' automatically come first turn' unit. Having Infiltration Cadre on the table isn't Null Deployment...
Tell me your secret!

Actually I used the Infiltration Cadre and it is pretty much the definition of Null deployment. You put a Piranha on the table. Done. Go second. Bite hard with the Piranha or force them to kill it in which case everything floods on where you need it turn one.

Another way I have done it is to put the Heavy Rail Rifle Broadsides in disparate corners (preferably going second here again) and attempting to get the enemy to chase me down. Oneo ne hand they cannot kep letting me fire weeker missiles, plasma nd Rail shots at them round after round and two, shooting me with 2+ armore and a couple shield drones is no sure way to ensure the death of that irritant. What that does for me (between that and the need to eventually reach objectives) is splits the enemy force up and allows me to attack a weaker flank and gives them less ability to support each other, whereas I have great ability to do so.

With Dark Eldar they have a Scalpel Squadron hat will actually allow you to deploy nothing and the Scalpel Squadron can be added to any army as long as you abide by the normal deployment restrictions which is no problem since it deploys from Deep Strike. So even a Tau force canuse it if they dont want to pay the cost of the Infiltration Cadre (being somewhat of a purist, this doesnt appeal to me nearly as much but if you aren't a purist, this is a dirt cheap way to make it work).

Well, the problem is going second. AFAIK, Tau has no native way to win Initiative (aside the normal roll) and hand it to the enemy after deployment...

Essentially, true 'null deployment' needs a 'deploy on first turn' ability.

The units I can think of which have this capability:

Any units in a Planetstrike Attacker Detachment (for obvious reasons!)

Space Marine Drop Pods
Blood Angels Angel's Fury Spearhead Gunships
Chaos Space Marine Dreadclaw & Kharybdis Assault Claws
Deathwing Terminators
Grey Knights in a Nemesis Strike Force
Elysian Drop Trooper (and D-99) Valkyries


I can't think of anything else, although I'm sure someone will pick out something I missed.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, the problem is going second. AFAIK, Tau has no native way to win Initiative (aside the normal roll) and hand it to the enemy after deployment...

Your eenmey will generally want to go first. if you win the roll, you make him deploy and go first. Pretty simple.

Some armies can pull it off fairly well. Marines of course with their drop pods. Tau can do it to a lesser degree, its not total null deployment but works almost the same. Put an infiltration cadre on the board and dare him to kill one of the units, on your next turn bring everything in in a massive deep strike.

Elysian guard can do it with their Valkyries arriving from deep strike and deploying their cargo turn one, plus a few other units dropping.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, the problem is going second. AFAIK, Tau has no native way to win Initiative (aside the normal roll) and hand it to the enemy after deployment...

Your eenmey will generally want to go first. if you win the roll, you make him deploy and go first. Pretty simple.

Not when he knows your list. Tried that some times; when they noticed a pattern, they started handing me the initiative.

I always make deep strikers go first if i can.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, the problem is going second. AFAIK, Tau has no native way to win Initiative (aside the normal roll) and hand it to the enemy after deployment...

Your eenmey will generally want to go first. if you win the roll, you make him deploy and go first. Pretty simple.

Not when he knows your list. Tried that some times; when they noticed a pattern, they started handing me the initiative.

...In which case, you deploy normally and say "thanks for that". Because like i told you, it is an option, not an obligation to go second.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, the problem is going second. AFAIK, Tau has no native way to win Initiative (aside the normal roll) and hand it to the enemy after deployment...

Your eenmey will generally want to go first. if you win the roll, you make him deploy and go first. Pretty simple.

Not when he knows your list. Tried that some times; when they noticed a pattern, they started handing me the initiative.

...In which case, you deploy normally and say "thanks for that". Because like i told you, it is an option, not an obligation to go second.

Except that won't work if using the standard deployment method on page 132

1) players roll off, winner decides who will deploy first and who deploys second (tau's opponent wins roll off and decides to deploy first)

2) the side deploying first must set up all the unis in their army

3) the other side does the same ( this includes any models going into reserves)

4) The player who deployed first can choose to take the first or second turn (so if the tau null deployed they give it to the tau, and if they didn't then he decides he wants to go first)

So like the OP said he needs to win the roll of and deploy first and then after both sides have deployed can choose who gets to go first

There is a difference between the way the ITC and regular warhammer does it. So i suppose you need to be clear on which way you're playing.

Thanks for all of the great replies!

So it is viable for Tyranids, but I'll just have to deploy a few units (I'm thinking a flyrant and a venomthrope and maybe a tervigon and a venomthrope) in some cover and hope they survive long enough for my other units to hit the table.

Also, I assume such a strategy would benefit greatly from a comms relay, so I probably need to include an aegis or a bastion.

 Jancoran wrote:
There is a difference between the way the ITC and regular warhammer does it. So i suppose you need to be clear on which way you're playing.

Well, I believe here everyone agrees we're using, as base, GW's method. ITC is an alternative - someone using it should be clear about it, not who's using GW's.