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I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Don't care. Won't happen, but would be fine.

I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

And sell LESS BOOKS?

Common sense would dictate that this should happen, but as vector pointed out

 Vector Strike wrote:
And sell LESS BOOKS?

It will never happen because Money

I honestly think that would make them sell more books, as all those BA and DA players would have to buy the updated book.

As you said, they won't do that, common sense seems to be few and far between at gee-dubs

Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

So what makes them BA if you dump their unique units? I mean heck, while you're at it, ditch TWC and Wulfen and assimilate the SW dex. Give tac marines the option to take chainswords and boom, grey hunters.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
So what makes them BA if you dump their unique units? I mean heck, while you're at it, ditch TWC and Wulfen and assimilate the SW dex. Give tac marines the option to take chainswords and Bo grey hunters.

TWC and Wulfen are vastly different than angry marines though. Also, read the bit in my post where I said we'd keep some of their more memorable units.

Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

The Marine codex is already bloated, so as you said, a few more pages of rules/fluff won't make things much worse

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

Not everyone''s first company fights the way the DW does.... Also, AFAIK, not even the White Scars have a company of literally nothing but bikes, as the Dark Angels do.

Imo, this also comes down to a balance thing... I can't recall whether DAs get access to grav weapons, but rolling the ability to take a clone "ravenwing" army out of the standard book with an HQ like Khan, would definitely frustrate or infuriate a number of people who already say that Marines are "OP" and that grav is "OP"... Keeping them a separate book continues to keep that balance.

Last time I checked they had grav. Cannons at least I know for sure.

And the whole fluff thing of having a full company of bikes doesn't really effect the models on the table.

BA's are ostensibly a Codex adherent chapter. For years most of their stuff was just weapon-swaps on normal units (Baal pred, Furioso) or extra-angry Tac marines (Death Company). GW added some additional ridiculous stuff just to justify their existence as a separate book, but really not all that much. They could be folded into the normal Vanilla codex with a couple pages of extra rules and lose nothing meaningful (i.e. nothing they might not lose or see changed with a new codex of their own in a new edition). Same goes for DA's.

Frankly (and as a player with a bunch of different marine armies) I would be more than happy to see all of the marine variants rolled into a single book with something akin to the 4th edition Chapter Traits system.

DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

Tbf though most of those DA units literally didn't exist fluff- and crunch-wise until 6th edition.

It'd be a shame to lose them, sure, but most of them (like centurions really) shouldn't have even be made to exist in the first place.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

Most of which are relatively minor variants on existing units, and many of which haven't existed for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the DA's existence. The Interrogator Chaplain for instance is just one of those things that seems distinct because of a quirk of codex edition, vanilla SM's used to have a very similar "big" Chaplain option.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

There's no particular reason that any or all of those couldn't be rolled into the Space Marine codex as unit upgrades to the generic units they are derived from.

text removed.

Reds8n

 insaniak wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

There's no particular reason that any or all of those couldn't be rolled into the Space Marine codex as unit upgrades to the generic units they are derived from.

Other than it adds flavour for them to be unique and to reduce all the unique chapters to being upgrades in the core codex would make it a bit of a mess IMO.

I think the Space Marine chapters should stay separate. If they were never broken off in the first place, then sure I'd say keep them in the main codex, but since they are already separate I think they should stay that way.

Ideally I'd like to see all Marine chapters updated within a few months of each other so they stay consistent with each other, but that's probably never going to happen.

Marines are one of GW's big sellers, so I'm sure they like having Space Marine releases as piecemeal as possible.

There's no reason to keep Blood Angels and Dark Angels out of generic Space Marines anymore.

Space Marines just get everything they do anyway, while they twist away with lack of support.

There's no advantage to keeping those two out.

Space Wolves can maintain their snowflake status.

I say get rid of all the snowflake chapters, while they're at it take renegades out of CSM and put them in C:SM where they belong.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

Is that though good idea? If DA/BA gets access to every toy from normal codex and other marines don't get theirs the BA/DA will start to look like marines+1...

Well, BA and DA have an outstanding history different from the vanilla chapters. It would not be wise to subsume them into the vanilla codex. But game-wise GW should take more care of their codices.

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

Is that though good idea? If DA/BA gets access to every toy from normal codex and other marines don't get theirs the BA/DA will start to look like marines+1...

To be brutally honest, it would be nice to be on the giving, not the receiving end for longer than 7 months out of a fething decade. Before I quit BA I was spending so much money on lube I could only eat 3 times a week. Seriously, last time BA were above average was before some dakka members were BORN. So long as they aren't Un the same league as Tau and Eldar I'd be a very happy camper.


I seriously got reported for suggesting Ensis Ferre not be a spanker to other players at his LGS? Alright, how's this? Try not being a spanker on the forums at least if you can't handle it IRL.

But if they were rolled into the SM codex, i wouldnt be able to create my all walker (minus drop pods) list D;

You guys want to give DA Storm Ravens and Centurions, among other things, I'm all for it

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Other than it adds flavour for them to be unique and to reduce all the unique chapters to being upgrades in the core codex would make it a bit of a mess IMO.

It adds 'flavour' in the wrong way, though... There's no particularly good reason for a mark of tank or aircraft to be unique to one specific Chapter. Certainly some Chapters might use more, or make better use of them... but that's better reflected through Chapter-specific rules, rather than only allowing, say, Black Templars to use Land Raider Crusaders...

Ideally I'd like to see all Marine chapters updated within a few months of each other so they stay consistent with each other, but that's probably never going to happen..

Indeed. Which is exactly why having them in one book is such an attractive idea. It immediately eliminates the issues we see with, for example, some Chapters dreadnoughts having more attacks than others for no discernible reason, or some Chapters being able to cram more guys into a drop pod than others, or only certain Chapters having access to options that have suddenly been a mainstay of the Astartes battleline for centuries...