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I wanted to continue the discussion started in the first draft FAQ thread about the new Grav FAQ.
According to the new Grav FAQ, if a unit has mixed armour values, you use the majority. If no majority exists, the targeted player can use which ever save they feel is best.

So, Eldar Windriders have both a 5+ save from their Mesh armour & a 3+ save from the jetbike. If a unit of 3 models is targeted by Grav, can the Eldar player choose the 5+ armour?
it sound kinda ludicrous to me and quite contrary to the fluff of Grav, but I cannot seem to find a way around this.

RAW, WIndrinders have both saves. If the unit has 3 models, 3 models have a 5+, 3 models have a 3+. No majority exists, the Windriders can "pick" the 5+ save to be wounded by.
Let's assume the FAQ stays as is for the final draft. Can someone point out a rules reason for this not to be the case? I really don't want another reason for people to cry cheese at my beloved bikes that I have been running since 4th ed.

If you *really* don't want people to cry cheese, then don't look for cheesy ways to make your army more powerful.

(Pro-tip: claiming that grav only wounds your bikes on a 5+ while rolling 3+ armor saves is a super cheesy way to make you *already top-tier army* even more powerful)

I don't think guardian wind-riders are actually equipped with mesh armor. They are equipped with a wind-rider jet-bike. Don't have the codex in front of me but is mesh armor included in their unit profile in the codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly if this is the case...it's even nastier for warlocks and farseers on bikes...they have no save without a jetbike.

I checked it the night the discussion came up. It does indeed say they have mesh armour, AND says that they have a Jet-Bike. The rules for the Jet Bike says the model gains a 3+ armour save, and the rules for mesh says the model has a 5+ armour save. I think this was originally done just to illustrate that these are your regular Guardians riding a jetbike, but the implication in this specific situation is, well, pretty funny.

Out of curiosity, what happens with Space Marines and Terminator Armour? Does Terminator Armour save they lose their Power Armour? Can this same rules loophole apply to most of the game's HQ's?

Jet councils now 6+ to wound with grav?

 NightHowler wrote:
If you *really* don't want people to cry cheese, then don't look for cheesy ways to make your army more powerful.

(Pro-tip: claiming that grav only wounds your bikes on a 5+ while rolling 3+ armor saves is a super cheesy way to make you *already top-tier army* even more powerful)

If getting hit by Grav, you can't take an armour save. All Grav is AP2, regardless of what value it wound on. So "rolling my 3+ armour" can't happen in this case.

FYI, I'll don't play all scatter bikes and will still be "choosing" the 3+ for my opponent's Grav to wound on. I just hate that there is another reason for people to complain about my favorite unit that got me interesting in my favorite army, especially since neither of them were considered top-tier when I started playing them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jet councils now 6+ to wound with grav?

I think is a bit easier, since armour save " - " is not an armour save. You must have multiple saves to choose from, and Jetseers only have the 3+ from the jetbike.

-

The absence of an armor save is not itself an armor save. So having an armor save of "-" means there is no armor save.

Also, I thought you could only have one characteristic value? So the 3+ from jetbike would override the mesh armor, and they only have one armor save, of 3+.

BossJakadakk wrote:
The absence of an armor save is not itself an armor save. So having an armor save of "-" means there is no armor save.

Also, I thought you could only have one characteristic value? So the 3+ from jetbike would override the mesh armor, and they only have one armor save, of 3+.

I'll have to check, but I believe the wording is something like "The controlling player 'chooses' the best save". This may be in reference to Invul saves, but it it is for all saves, then Windriders indeed have two armour saves that they can choose to use in any situation.

BossJakadakk wrote:
The absence of an armor save is not itself an armor save. So having an armor save of "-" means there is no armor save.

Also, I thought you could only have one characteristic value? So the 3+ from jetbike would override the mesh armor, and they only have one armor save, of 3+.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but it would certainly help. However, there is a rule in the rulebook that says if you have multiple different saves, you may take the "best" one. GW's FAQs have since further clarified that "best" means "whichever you feel is best", since that allows jinking Dark Angel bikers that reroll their jink save to have a "better" save with a 4+ rerollable jink than their 3+ armour save.

Note, this issue didn't come up until then, since the rulebook actually defined that a model's "best" save is whichever is numerically better. At that time, Grav worked against bikes just fine, since the 3+ save was "better", even if a player would've preferred to use the 5+ mesh. Now that GW effectively errata'd what "best" means, this door is open. I don't tend to run Eldar Jetbikes except when a player wants a more challenging game (I tend to run my Chaos and Harlequins more than anything right now), but if they have Grav, you can bet I'm going to choose my 5+ mesh armour. Thankfully, Grav is pretty sparse around here except in tournaments, so I don't think I'll be ruffling any feathers any time soon. If somehow my Chaos forces got access to Grav-type weapons, I would tell my opponent I'm only wounding them on 5's if they so choose.

 Yarium wrote:
Note, this issue didn't come up until then, since the rulebook actually defined that a model's "best" save is whichever is numerically better. At that time, Grav worked against bikes just fine, since the 3+ save was "better", even if a player would've preferred to use the 5+ mesh. Now that GW effectively errata'd what "best" means, this door is open. I don't tend to run Eldar Jetbikes except when a player wants a more challenging game (I tend to run my Chaos and Harlequins more than anything right now), but if they have Grav, you can bet I'm going to choose my 5+ mesh armour. Thankfully, Grav is pretty sparse around here except in tournaments, so I don't think I'll be ruffling any feathers any time soon. If somehow my Chaos forces got access to Grav-type weapons, I would tell my opponent I'm only wounding them on 5's if they so choose.

Not entirely. This type of question has been brought up many times because of that rerollable Cover Save. If you always have to use the best one, then it doesn't matter if it is a Cover, Armour, Invulnerable, or multiples of the same type of Save. Best is Best.

 Yarium wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
The absence of an armor save is not itself an armor save. So having an armor save of "-" means there is no armor save.

Also, I thought you could only have one characteristic value? So the 3+ from jetbike would override the mesh armor, and they only have one armor save, of 3+.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but it would certainly help. However, there is a rule in the rulebook that says if you have multiple different saves, you may take the "best" one. GW's FAQs have since further clarified that "best" means "whichever you feel is best", since that allows jinking Dark Angel bikers that reroll their jink save to have a "better" save with a 4+ rerollable jink than their 3+ armour save.

Note, this issue didn't come up until then, since the rulebook actually defined that a model's "best" save is whichever is numerically better. At that time, Grav worked against bikes just fine, since the 3+ save was "better", even if a player would've preferred to use the 5+ mesh. Now that GW effectively errata'd what "best" means, this door is open. I don't tend to run Eldar Jetbikes except when a player wants a more challenging game (I tend to run my Chaos and Harlequins more than anything right now), but if they have Grav, you can bet I'm going to choose my 5+ mesh armour. Thankfully, Grav is pretty sparse around here except in tournaments, so I don't think I'll be ruffling any feathers any time soon. If somehow my Chaos forces got access to Grav-type weapons, I would tell my opponent I'm only wounding them on 5's if they so choose.

How is it listed on the datasheet? do they have two different values in the stat line (i.e 3+/5+), or is it listed as just 3+?

 EnTyme wrote:
How is it listed on the datasheet? do they have two different values in the stat line (i.e 3+/5+), or is it listed as just 3+?

The datasheet's statline says 3+, but both the Jetbike and the Mesh Armour are listed in their wargear. So, even assuming the 3+ in the profile wasn't from the jetbike, they'd have 3 armour saves... their statline armour save of 3+, their jetbike armour save of 3+, and their mesh armour save of 5+. Since we'd have an equal number of all saves, we can choose which is "best" when hit by the Grav, and can choose the 5+. Just because it's in the statline doesn't mean that overrides everything. As stated, a Space Marine Captain might have a 3+ armour save in their profile, but if they have purchased Terminator Armour, the player can choose to use their Terminator Armour's save of 2+ instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
Not entirely. This type of question has been brought up many times because of that rerollable Cover Save. If you always have to use the best one, then it doesn't matter if it is a Cover, Armour, Invulnerable, or multiples of the same type of Save. Best is Best.

I won't get into an argument about this, since that's the whole reason we were waiting on an FAQ. I was just using that to point out that in either case, before the FAQ, this wasn't an issue because what's "best" between a 3+ and a 5+ armour save (with no rerolls either) was commonly accepted as being the 3+. Since then, GW's FAQ says you can use whatever you feel is best, which means that an illogical person can choose to feel that their 5+ armour is better than a 3+, and because it's about what they feel rather than what is, they are legitimately able to do so in order to reduce Grav's effectiveness.

 Yarium wrote:
I won't get into an argument about this, since that's the whole reason we were waiting on an FAQ. I was just using that to point out that in either case, before the FAQ, this wasn't an issue because what's "best" between a 3+ and a 5+ armour save (with no rerolls either) was commonly accepted as being the 3+. Since then, GW's FAQ says you can use whatever you feel is best, which means that an illogical person can choose to feel that their 5+ armour is better than a 3+, and because it's about what they feel rather than what is, they are legitimately able to do so in order to reduce Grav's effectiveness.

Indeed. I am just saying that this type of question has come up before. It was between different types of Saves, but that really doesn't change the point of the discussion.

And yes, it is better to be Wounded on a 5+ than a 3+.

If no one else is backing me up on it, then I'm probably wrong. I honestly wouldn't even want the headache trying to explain this to opponents though. Well, maybe if they're being a heavy rules lawyer to me, then I might throw this wrench at them.

But yeah @Galef, I figured that "best save" thing was in reference to models having two different kinds of saves, such as armor and invul. I honestly hope they clarify this, and against being able to pick which armor save you use against which gun. It would be so much simpler.

It's stated with mixed saves and no majority, the owning player chooses which save the grav has to use to roll wounds. The council you speak of are not mixed saves. They all have a 3 plus. So grav rolls 3 's to wound.

You use the best save number for saving throws, so they use the same number to wound.

Explained this way. You have 3 dudes with 3 plus, in a unit of 3 dudes with 5 plus. With no majority you as the eldar player tell me to use the 5 as my to wound roll. Your choice plus harder to wound. Right?

3 wind riders in their own unit by themselves is NOT a mixed unit of saves. Let's say that unit only has a 4 up invulnerable save and no armor save. Grave rolls to wound need to be 6's.

You can have the 5+ save, but you're T3 if you choose to do so IHIWPI.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can have the 5+ save, but you're T3 if you choose to do so IHIWPI.

Wont matter vs grav

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jet councils now 6+ to wound with grav?

no, they wond on a 3+ because the armor save is a 3+

the context of the FAQ answer is talking about having two models in a unit and they both have different armor saves.

Like a captain in terminator armor and an inquisitor with armor that gives a 5+ save, in this case they can chose the 5+ for grav to wound that unit.

The FAQ answer should not be applied to a single unit of 10 that all have a 3+ and a 5+ armor save because the context of the FAQ is not talking about identically equipped models.

Lungpickle wrote:
It's stated with mixed saves and no majority, the owning player chooses which save the grav has to use to roll wounds. The council you speak of are not mixed saves. They all have a 3 plus. So grav rolls 3 's to wound.

You use the best save number for saving throws, so they use the same number to wound.

Explained this way. You have 3 dudes with 3 plus, in a unit of 3 dudes with 5 plus. With no majority you as the eldar player tell me to use the 5 as my to wound roll. Your choice plus harder to wound. Right?

3 wind riders in their own unit by themselves is NOT a mixed unit of saves. Let's say that unit only has a 4 up invulnerable save and no armor save. Grave rolls to wound need to be 6's.

Better keep the Warlocks out then. Their sole Armour Save of 3+ would make that the majority until he dies.

Isn't this all moot. it does not matter if the jetbike has either a 5+ or a 3+ when they are not the one choosing what to be wounded on. If there really is a question about what armor save to use, the player controlling of the grav gun is the one who would select which armor save to wound on. therefore it will always be on a 3+.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jet councils now 6+ to wound with grav?

no, they wond on a 3+ because the armor save is a 3+

the context of the FAQ answer is talking about having two models in a unit and they both have different armor saves.

Like a captain in terminator armor and an inquisitor with armor that gives a 5+ save, in this case they can chose the 5+ for grav to wound that unit.

The FAQ answer should not be applied to a single unit of 10 that all have a 3+ and a 5+ armor save because the context of the FAQ is not talking about identically equipped models.

Makes sense but thats not how it's worded according to the OP.

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
Isn't this all moot. it does not matter if the jetbike has either a 5+ or a 3+ when they are not the one choosing what to be wounded on. If there really is a question about what armor save to use, the player controlling of the grav gun is the one who would select which armor save to wound on. therefore it will always be on a 3+.

The FAQ says the controlling player being TARGETED chooses the save. Otherwise you'd be right and the point would be moot

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jet councils now 6+ to wound with grav?

no, they wond on a 3+ because the armor save is a 3+

the context of the FAQ answer is talking about having two models in a unit and they both have different armor saves.

Like a captain in terminator armor and an inquisitor with armor that gives a 5+ save, in this case they can chose the 5+ for grav to wound that unit.

The FAQ answer should not be applied to a single unit of 10 that all have a 3+ and a 5+ armor save because the context of the FAQ is not talking about identically equipped models.

Makes sense but thats not how it's worded according to the OP.

I truly believe the intent is to apply to units with mixed MODELS with different armour saves. Sadly it only says units with mixed armour saves. By that loose definition, Windriders will always be a unti with mixed armour says as they each have 2 different saves provided by their wargear.

--

If you want to say your models have a 5+ for the purpose of Grav, but a 3+ for all other purposes, don't be surprised when you opponent calmly packs up his/her models and leaves. This is an obvious exploitation of a possible loophole that isn't even really a loophole. It is purposefully misinterpreting a rule to gain an advantage. This is the textbook definition of TFG. Why are we still even having this discussion?

We are having this discussion because GW has now made the option possible. People will use it. I was hoping someone was going to provide a concrete reason why this wouldn't be possible, but it appears to have only confirmed it.

GW has taken the "use whichever save you feel is best" to a whole new level.

Fortunately for me and my group, GW has left this as an "option" So just like taking Scatter lasers which I don't feel compelled to spam in casual games, I have the option to let my opponent wound on 3's.

 EnTyme wrote:
If you want to say your models have a 5+ for the purpose of Grav, but a 3+ for all other purposes, don't be surprised when you opponent calmly packs up his/her models and leaves. This is an obvious exploitation of a possible loophole that isn't even really a loophole. It is purposefully misinterpreting a rule to gain an advantage. This is the textbook definition of TFG. Why are we still even having this discussion?

Because we're discussing the Rules, not whether or not we like them. This is unlikely to impact your game, because it's unlikely that all your games are ultra-high end game. This loophole only exists in a corner case for the game at large, but exists far more commonly in tournaments where Grav is dominating. As such, this is an important discussion with major implications to the competitive circuit.

 EnTyme wrote:
If you want to say your models have a 5+ for the purpose of Grav, but a 3+ for all other purposes, don't be surprised when you opponent calmly packs up his/her models and leaves. This is an obvious exploitation of a possible loophole that isn't even really a loophole. It is purposefully misinterpreting a rule to gain an advantage. This is the textbook definition of TFG. Why are we still even having this discussion?

Yep, this. If someone tried this on me, I'd make damn sure I never played them again.

 Nazrak wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
If you want to say your models have a 5+ for the purpose of Grav, but a 3+ for all other purposes, don't be surprised when you opponent calmly packs up his/her models and leaves. This is an obvious exploitation of a possible loophole that isn't even really a loophole. It is purposefully misinterpreting a rule to gain an advantage. This is the textbook definition of TFG. Why are we still even having this discussion?

Yep, this. If someone tried this on me, I'd make damn sure I never played them again.

I have stopped playing a 1/3 of the local players because they ARE TFG.

On a side note, I would like to mention that Terminator armor REPLACES the other armors (and usuallly replaces weapons with power weapon and storm bolter and grenades as well). There might be an exception to this somewhere, but I do not know where it is if there is one.

Terminator armour does replace, but doesn't Artificer stack? In other words you would have Power Armour and Artificer Armour, for both a 2+ and 3+.

Isn't there a relic Terminator armour?

since the entry jetbike says.

"A model riding an Eldar jetbike has a 3+ Armour Save"

i understand the unit armor save just become a 3+ and lost it's previous save (even if the unit would had a 2+ save) since the unit just not gain an extra save it's just Become 3+

This whole thread is based on an unproved fact: that the windriders indeed have 2 different armor save.

The natural answer is obviousy something like:

I checked it the night the discussion came up. It does indeed say they have mesh armour, AND says that they have a Jet-Bike. The rules for the Jet Bike says the model gains a 3+ armour save, and the rules for mesh says the model has a 5+ armour save.

But it doesn't mean the Windrider actually has two different armor save (both a 3+ and a 5+) at the same time.

Armor Save is a characteristic of the model. Here you simply have two pieces of wargear that apply a "set" modifier to this characteristic. In the end, the big question is simply to know in which order those modifiers are applied.

Think of it this way: imagine the Mesh Armor makes the model S3, and the Jetbike makes it S5. Would you say the model has two different Strength values ? Or would you rather say the model is either S3 or S5 depending on the order you apply those modifiers ?