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So, in 7th is there a rule in the BRB (or FAQ for 7th) that explicitly stops you from shooting your own unit with a non-template weapon if it is not locked in assault? (Not looking at ITC etc. rulings on this kind of thing currently)

I am looking for the page number that does forbid it.

It is mostly for curiosity sake, but here it the hypothetical situation:

I am running a Piranha Firestream Wing formation and one of my piranhas gets immobilized but not destroyed in mid field. I cannot recur the formation if they are not all within 6” of the board edge. If I cannot move that piranha I would rather sacrifice it for the Greater Good to get the formation into ongoing reserves potentially. So if i nuke it and all others are within 6” after that at the end of the next movement phase I would be able to recur the formation.

Thoughts? It is broken, cheesy, and unfriendly if you can, but I am still curious about it.

If you can find a rule in the BRB or an FAQ for 7th that forbids it I would really appreciate it. My friends say no, but have yet to cite a page number

I would also be curious if you could or couldn't in old editions.

 Zeuriel wrote:
So, in 7th is there a rule in the BRB (or FAQ for 7th) that explicitly stops you from shooting your own unit with a non-template weapon if it is not locked in assault? (Not looking at ITC etc. rulings on this kind of thing currently)

I am looking for the page number that does forbid it.

That's not really the way the rules work. You need a rule that PERMITS you to fire at your own units. Can you provide a rule that allows you to target your own units in the Shooting phase?

 Zeuriel wrote:
So, in 7th is there a rule in the BRB (or FAQ for 7th) that explicitly stops you from shooting your own unit with a non-template weapon if it is not locked in assault? (Not looking at ITC etc. rulings on this kind of thing currently)

I am looking for the page number that does forbid it.

It is mostly for curiosity sake, but here it the hypothetical situation:

I am running a Piranha Firestream Wing formation and one of my piranhas gets immobilized but not destroyed in mid field. I cannot recur the formation if they are not all within 6” of the board edge. If I cannot move that piranha I would rather sacrifice it for the Greater Good to get the formation into ongoing reserves potentially. So if i nuke it and all others are within 6” after that at the end of the next movement phase I would be able to recur the formation.

Thoughts? It is broken, cheesy, and unfriendly if you can, but I am still curious about it.

If you can find a rule in the BRB or an FAQ for 7th that forbids it I would really appreciate it. My friends say no, but have yet to cite a page number

I would also be curious if you could or couldn't in old editions.

In general you could not. I think there were some very limited exceptions, such as one of the assassins who was allowed to pick out a target without restrictions, IIRC. The only other example I could immediately think of would be going back to the era of third edition and artillery style 'guess' weapons where you guessed the range to the target and put the template down at that distance. If you were really good (or really bad) at estimating range and the blast template came down on your unit, they were hit. There certainly were situations were deliberately hitting your own units could be to your benefit, but that was really the only way to do it.

To expand on what Ghaz is saying: Games work by outlining what actions you may take in a given situation, and then sometimes placing restrictions on things that it has already permitted you to do. In this case, let's look at the actions the shooting section of the rules allows you to take.

Page 30 describes the process of selecting a target to shoot at. This is what it permits your nominated unit to do (bold emphasis mine)

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at.

You are only given permission to choose enemy units as targets. You cannot target friendly units for the same reason you cannot target the enemy player. There are no rules permitting you to do so in the first place, so no restriction is necessary.

Bojazz is right: You must target an enemy unit.

That being said, is the Piranha part of a squadron? And if so, does the formation rely on the squadron of Piranhas being a full squadron?

Because if the answer to those two questions was yes then no, then (by the rules about squadrons on Page 79) you could abandon the Piranha and continue moving the formation up.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Because if the answer to those two questions was yes then no, then (by the rules about squadrons on Page 79) you could abandon the Piranha and continue moving the formation up.

there is your answer. If one of the squadron is immobilized, abandoning it would allow you to leave the field and 'rearm', and depending on how you read the rule, get another piranha. (though if you don't have an extra model available, I'd say that you are out of luck)

Currently, there is only one model in the game (that I know of) that can target friendly models - Inquisitor Lord Karamazov of the Inquisition. (and his bank shot is fun!).

The formation states "all of the surviving models" so if one piranha is inmobilized and 6" away from table edge you are screwed.

Funily enough if all models are within 6 of any table edge (not even need the same edge for all models) the rule allow you to put the inmobilized into reserves and return fully rearmed and repaired.

What happens to a vehicle in a squadron that is immobilised when the rest of the squadron moves?

The vehicle gets left behind, forming a new unit. Change to 5th when it was destroyed, from memory

Ordinance Tyrant can also fire at his own units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The vehicle gets left behind, forming a new unit. Change to 5th when it was destroyed, from memory

I see. We have played them incorrectly then, though only our eldar sometimes fields war walkers in a squadron.

How would that work with the Piranha Factory?

Naw wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The vehicle gets left behind, forming a new unit. Change to 5th when it was destroyed, from memory

I see. We have played them incorrectly then, though only our eldar sometimes fields war walkers in a squadron.

How would that work with the Piranha Factory?

try reading the thread

Lord Perversor wrote:
The formation states "all of the surviving models" so if one piranha is inmobilized and 6" away from table edge you are screwed.

Funily enough if all models are within 6 of any table edge (not even need the same edge for all models) the rule allow you to put the inmobilized into reserves and return fully rearmed and repaired.

Let me rephrase then. If I have 4 piranhas at my table's edge and one of them gets immobilized on enemy's turn. I then move the rest of the squadron away to create new units, then both use the special rule to go rearm etc. What would happen?

The single unit would come back on, as per the rule, but with all vehicles fully repaired / rearmed

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The single unit would come back on, as per the rule, but with all vehicles fully repaired / rearmed

To clarify, the unit of 1 immobilized would come back as 1 repaired and the unit of 3 would come back as unit of 3?

Or, the unit of 1 immobilized would come back as 4 and the unit of 3 would come back as 4?

The latter is how the rules work, as the unit is restored to full strength. This is clearly not the intent, but the immobilized piranha could be somewhere in middle of the board and could not leave to be rearmed in the first place.

The unit of 1 and unit of 3 come back as a unit of 4, as the unit of 1 isnt a unit from the formaiton. (by definition, this new unit could not have existed when the formation was purchased)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit of 1 and unit of 3 come back as a unit of 4, as the unit of 1 isnt a unit from the formaiton. (by definition, this new unit could not have existed when the formation was purchased)

In a Battleforged army, all units must belong to a Detachment. Assume that your only Detachment is the Piranha Formation.

What Detachment does the immobilized Piranha belong to? I contend it belongs to the only possible choice. It's a model that was purchased as part of a unit from the Formation. The fact that the unit splits into two units doesn't change the fact that all models involved were purchased as part of the Formation.

I would think that in this somewhat rarified circumstance that the unit of 3 would come back as a unit of 4 (its original state) and that the unit of 1 would come back as a unit of 1 (its original state at the time of its creation).

Realistically, HIWPI... I wouldn't allow an immobilized vehicle to leave the board. It's immobilized. The clear intention is that it just sit there and fire whatever guns it might have left until it either dies for real or the game ends. It shouldn't be able to magically fly off the board due to the wording of a rule not calling a move a move.

Only at list building must htey belong to a detach,ment, or any of the other list building restrictions.

The unit did not exist. the unit, as composed, did not exist. that is trite.

If you dont let it "leave" then you should only allow 3 models to "come back", as their 4th model is still on the board.

However RAW the single model is removed but only one unit returns.

But the only way for the unit of 1 to even leave the table is to have the special rule. It doesn't lose it when it becomes a unit of one.

But ok, it makes sense that they would come back as 4 and 1 then.

 deevil wrote:
Ordinance Tyrant can also fire at his own units.

Also any Chaos Psyker with Boon of Mutation, Aetos'rau'keres if he fails LD,

Wouldn't the bold text on page 30 answer it?

Choose a single enemy unit to shoot at

Making that the base rule that you need special rules to bypass (split-fire, Commissar shoots his own guys)

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Wouldn't the bold text on page 30 answer it?

Choose a single enemy unit to shoot at

Making that the base rule that you need special rules to bypass (split-fire, Commissar shoots his own guys)

Yep, that was covered in the 3rd post in the thread. The discussion turned into how the Piranha Firestream Wing formation's rules interact with piranhas that have been abandoned by their squadron.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 deevil wrote:
Ordinance Tyrant can also fire at his own units.

Also any Chaos Psyker with Boon of Mutation, Aetos'rau'keres if he fails LD,

Inquisitor Karamazov likes to call orbital strikes on his own troops too.

I don't know if Tau has beam weapons, but you could target a spot on the board right behind it, if you have access to a beam weapon.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
I don't know if Tau has beam weapons, but you could target a spot on the board right behind it, if you have access to a beam weapon.

'Beam' is not a weapon type. It's a sub-category of the 'Witchfire' psychic power type.

 Ghaz wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
I don't know if Tau has beam weapons, but you could target a spot on the board right behind it, if you have access to a beam weapon.

'Beam' is not a weapon type. It's a sub-category of the 'Witchfire' psychic power type.

I play Tau. We are not familiar with these "psychic powers" you speak of.

Aren't convertor beams a beam weapon? I play CSM- so the most technologically advanced weaponry is autocannons. I thought that beam could be on a weapon profile- I could be wrong.

No, blast

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Aren't convertor beams a beam weapon? I play CSM- so the most technologically advanced weaponry is autocannons. I thought that beam could be on a weapon profile- I could be wrong.

Its best not to assume that the weapon's name has anything to do with the weapon's profile. Assault cannons are not Assault weapons and heavy flamers are not Heavy weapons. Likewise the conversion beamer is not a Witchfire psychic power.

The Necron Death Ray used to be Beam-like, but it was changed to a Blast in the last codex.