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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 19:05:33
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.
The model kit has one laser per model. It will never be 1 per 3 again.
A scatterlaser should rightfully cost the same as an assault cannon; ie 20 pts. It is better in practice anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 19:07:08
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.
Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.
SW have Wolfstars.
Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.
The model kit has one laser per model. It will never be 1 per 3 again.
A scatterlaser should rightfully cost the same as an assault cannon; ie 20 pts. It is better in practice anyway.
I really don't see why people like that. GW don't give a flying feth about the kits.
Debatable. An Assault cannon gains AP4 and Rending.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 19:15:19
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 19:21:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:06:09
Subject: Re:Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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So About that Grav Martel,
Your telling me that a list like this, where the Sang Priests join the Assault Squads and everyone is deep striking in with the detachment rule:
Storm of Angels: You can re-roll failed Reserve Rolls for units in this Detachment with the Deep Strike special rule. In addition, units in this Detachment arriving from Deep Strike Reserve scatter D6" less (normally D6" rather than 2D6").
with this much melta, plasma and grav shots can't compete? I'm starting to wonder if BA even need some updates, aside from getting a decurion etc...  The 4 Command Squads each firing 6 grav shots the turn they DS, from 18 inches away... + 2 Assult squads shooting 5 plasma shots from 12" + 2 grav shots at 18"
That doesn't even cover the troops dropping in with Melta shots, missile and sniper shots from the scouts, 2 predators in the back shooting as well.
+++ New List for Martel (1850pts) +++
++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Baal Strike Force) ++
+ (No Category) +
Relics and Detachment-rules
·· Exterminatus: Archangels [Archangels Strike Force]
+ HQ +
Sanguinary Priest [Additional Weapon, Chainsword, Combi-Grav, Jump pack]
Sanguinary Priest [Additional Weapon, Chainsword, Combi-Grav, Jump pack]
+ Elites +
4 X Command Squad [Jump Packs]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
·· Veteran [Chainsword, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
+ Troops +
2 X Scout Squad [Missile Launcher, 4x Scouts, 3x Sniper Rifle]
·· Scout Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Sniper Rifle]
2 X Tactical Squad [Meltagun, 4x Tactical Marine]
·· Drop Pod [Deathwind Missile Launcher]
·· Tactical Sergeant [Chainsword, Combi-Melta]
+ Fast Attack +
2 X Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, Jump Packs, 2x Plasmagun]
·· Assault Sergeant [Chainsword, Plasma Pistol]
+ Heavy Support +
2 X Predator [Autocannon, Heavy Bolters]
The problem with the faction is still the lack of quality blitzing and blazing fast units that rock CC. I suppose my fixes are still valid. All BA really can do is some mobile average shooting.
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9000
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Knights / Assassins 800 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:23:22
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Regular grav guns are extremely pedestrian.
It takes 20 BS4 grav gun shots to down a Stimtide with no nova charge. With nova charge, this bloats to 41(!) shots.
The regular grav guns suffers worse against the WK. While is still takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to down a WK with no shield, it would only take 15 grav cannon shots, which is only a single cent squad.
The storm shields you included would help a lot vs intercepting IAs, but they will still kill enough to make it so you don't get enough grav shots to even kill a single riptide. So no, this is not competitive.
The firepower coming from the preds, the assault squads and tactical squads is basically negligible. The same units would have the same problems for vanilla marines, but they'd have free transports and they'd all be obj sec.
"with this much melta, plasma and grav shots can't compete?"
Go look at a Tau or Eldar list and tell me how many shots this really is. SW will run over the entire list with a single TWC unit. And none of these units can actually beat a Riptide in CC.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 20:30:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:29:58
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:33:52
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering. Warp spiders being considered "costly" is a big lol with terminators in the game.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 20:35:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:35:43
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering.
They're expensive T3 3+ jet infantry. They aren't massively hard to kill without BLOS terrain.
Then you'll be happy to not use any of it then.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:36:46
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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AP4 and Rending are great against 4+ units and 2+ units without layered saves.
Scatterbikes : 3+, 4+ Jink
Warp Spiders : 3+, Flickerjump
Wraithknight : 3+, potential 5++, FNP
Riptide : 3+, 5++, potential FNP
Stormsurge : 3+, 4++, FNP
Necrons : 3+ or 4+, 3++ on Wraiths, 4+ Reanimate
Gladius : 3+, AV11
Daemons : 5++, can be improved
Wolfstar : 3+, 3++, potential 4+ FNP
There aren't a lot of popular 4+ units, though. It's pretty much just Warriors, and you definitely don't want to park a tank within 24" of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:42:09
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Yoyoyo wrote:AP4 and Rending are great against 4+ units and 2+ units without layered saves.
Scatterbikes : 3+, 4+ Jink
Warp Spiders : 3+, Flickerjump
Wraithknight : 3+, potential 5++, FNP
Riptide : 3+, 5++, potential FNP
Stormsurge : 3+, 4++, FNP
Necrons : 3+ or 4+, 3++ on Wraiths, 4+ Reanimate
Gladius : 3+, AV11
Daemons : 5++, can be improved
Wolfstar : 3+, 3++, potential 4+ FNP
There aren't a lot of popular 4+ units, though. It's pretty much just Warriors, and you definitely don't want to park a tank within 24" of them.
You never can mass up enough shots to make it great, though. No one gives a feth about one or two assault cannons, which is how they always come for the Imperium. Assault cannons suck vs 2+ armor, because you can never roll enough rends to matter. You need to fire two assault cannons to average a single rend. Yippee. Show me who's boss. The assault cannon happens to be a good with the Gladius because the razorbacks were free. But that's free stuff being good, not the assault cannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not debatable in my mind. AP 4 is garbage, and rending is useless in the numbers that the Imperium can field them. Meanwhile the scatterlaser gets +12" range. Scatterbikes will always get the alpha strike on assault cannon armed models. 36" range is just crazy useful. All that matters is that S6 ROF 4.
" GW don't give a flying feth about the kits. "
Actually, they do. The reason scatterbikes are one heavy per model is the kit was designed before the rules. The assault cannon is actually overcosted garbage compared to the scatterlaser, and it really boils down to 1) platforms and 2) range.
It's not just scatterbikes. WK and Warp spiders also rape BA lists. The other elements in the Eldar army aren't too good for BA, either.
BA have the double whammy of not being able to project enough power in the shooting phase, and don't project enough power in the assault phase due to taking too many casualties in the enemy shooting phase. Nerfing scatterbikes alone doesn't fix this.
"in my mind" this seems to be why I almost never agree with you. Warp Spiders are also costly and their OPness is based entirely on terrain. Try a game without LOS blocking terrain. It nerfs Spiders and according to you doesn't help much anyway. What elements can't you deal with apart from a WK?
If the rules were based on kits Space Wolves wouldn't have flamers and melta guns seeing as all they have is a plasma gun in the kit.
I'll take a bunch of scatterlasers and you can have a bunch of assault cannons. We'll see who wins. It won't be you.
Warp spiders are still quite good in the open because of virtual immunity to templates. And jumping out of double tap range. That list that was posted above? They can easily flicker out of the range of deep striking grav guns. 9" range sucks.
LOS blocking terrain helps a lot against shooting lists that are penalized for moving. Tau and Eldar aren't those lists.
BA have no answers for Warp spiders, scatterbikes, wave serpents, or WKs. Moving down to the next tier of units, they are still difficult for BA because our firepower sucks and the return firepower is withering.
They're expensive T3 3+ jet infantry. They aren't massively hard to kill without BLOS terrain.
Then you'll be happy to not use any of it then.
They're hard to kill when you have the old Imperial heavy weapons and a low model count. What's efficient to shoot at them that you would have in a TAC list?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 20:49:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 20:58:01
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 21:07:39
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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pm713 wrote:You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
A typical eldar list will cut that list to pieces.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 21:11:10
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:You don't even need heavy weapons. By my standards pretty much everything in the list.
A typical eldar list will cut that list to pieces.
Depends what you consider typical doesn't it? Where I am it will be fine against Eldar for a mix of reasons.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 21:13:43
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'm talking about the ba not holding back and the eldar not holding back. Best possible tac lists for each army. Discussing anything else is meaningless. I should have said typical eldar net list.
Sw will have a good laugh, too.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 21:15:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 21:18:44
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Naaris wrote:Right cause they have amazing assault units, access to a lot of storm shields, T5 and 2W models. They are fast and can hammer the opponent in close combat. Everything BA should be doing. But they should be doing it better, based on the fluff. So Rather than leaving everthing as is and giving them formations, they need a new dex with new tools to get the job done. Not everyone wants to run a decurion type detachment. I'd think a lot of people would want a dex that can run a cad, one where they can be creative and one with strong internal balance where any unit can be viable. Hence my suggestions. And frankly there are only so many special rules so as all armies get "decurions" there's going to be overlap.
Regardless of what you're doing and how effective it'll be, you're still basically building a BA codex from the skeleton of a SW one. The BA have more in common with a Codex Compliant chapter than the Space Wolves. Seriously, the fluff reflects this. They follow the Codex's doctrines regarding formation, size, tactics - their traditional deviations are Sanguinary Priests (basically Apothecaries) all troops being able to be equipped with jump packs and a Death Company. That's literally it. Instead, you butcher the fluff, add unprecedented equipment and create gear that doesn't make sense (why does only BA artificer armour grant a 6++?) BA are not about being T5, or having Storm Shields, or having 2W. They NEVER have. They are about jump packs, fire, blood, and being a surgical swift angelic blade. Reduce the scatter on their deep strike, grant them a psuedo-Jink save as a Chapter Tactic when using jump packs. Relentless on infantry is a bad idea - well done, now you have Devastators sprinting up the table. That is not a BA trait. Lightning Claws are not a BA thing, far more a Raven Guard one. All SM should have Decurions - you are not forced to use them, but they should exist. Why should they not? Perhaps look into the HH rules for the BA. They have got them rather spot on, IMHO (barring a few cases).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/14 21:19:54
They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:33:10
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav  So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
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Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
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100 Vostroyan Firstborn
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:47:45
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav  So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
Actually based on what Martel has said in the past he does actually only play in tournament level games.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:54:14
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Im disappointed in the lack of vampire bat rider cavalry.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:55:21
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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Then he should at least acknowledge not everyone does, and stop complaining that the army HE chose in HIS meta isn't standing up to the big dogs when he fully well knew his BA wouldn't pull their weight against uber-competitive lists.
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Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:56:51
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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To be fair IIRC he had Blood angels for a LONG time and isnt some new army he picked up.
as is the case with a lot of people that end up getting shafted from the true problem with the game which is codex power creep. which is more now like a power sprint.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/14 23:58:43
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Fixture of Dakka
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Desubot wrote:Im disappointed in the lack of vampire bat rider cavalry.
That idea is just batty.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 00:27:29
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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And they wouldn't even have to make more models!
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Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
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100 Vostroyan Firstborn
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 00:56:27
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Then he should at least acknowledge not everyone does, and stop complaining that the army HE chose in HIS meta isn't standing up to the big dogs when he fully well knew his BA wouldn't pull their weight against uber-competitive lists.
I'm not complaining this thread as much as pointing out how complicated a fix is. Automatically Appended Next Post: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Martel732 wrote: #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.
The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav  So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)
Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.
"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."
This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
Where did you get the notion that you can't win without grav or free stuff? Do you by chance literally only play at tournaments? Not every game is triple tide spam, and even if it is it's not like wolves will succeed too well either. "B-But TWC!" At best they've got a 3++ inv. Definitely not impossible to get through, even with t5 and 2 wounds if you think such firepower is so easily accessible.
A lot of things work in twc's favor vs tau. IA doesn't double out twc and that's through a 3++. Hymp is the biggest threat.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 00:58:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 02:59:08
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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Martel732 wrote:You never can mass up enough shots to make it great, though. No one gives a feth about one or two assault cannons, which is how they always come for the Imperium.
True. But nobody cared much about Scatterlasers either, when they were an auxiliary weapon on a platform like a Wave Serpent or a Falcon.
Martel732 wrote:Assault cannons suck vs 2+ armor, because you can never roll enough rends to matter. You need to fire two assault cannons to average a single rend.
Meh. It's better than not having Rending. Pointing 3-4 free Razorbacks at a Terminator Squad will remove them in 2 shooting phases.
It's really the cost of the platform. Like you mentioned, free Razorbacks help a lot. Just not for BA.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 03:04:46
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Scatterlasers have been OP since they were introduced. There just have been a lot more limiting factors. But I had a friend that still crushed in 5th ed using the 4th ed eldar codex by spamming scatterlasers before it was cool. The range was ALWAYS a huge advantage. He's use Eldrad to fortune scatterwalkers in ruins which was crazy good back in 5th. Mass S6 has always been devastating.
I agree about the razorbacks, but we are back to free stuff making marines good, not the actual unit entries. Although grav devs ARE good. But BA get neither free razors nor grav devs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 03:05:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 03:32:32
Subject: Re:Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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The BA have always been great their codex not so much some time's.
I actually think the fix for our BA's is really simple and we should stick to what we know. By that I mean that I would supplement us and remove all of the C:SM stuff and just let them use the formation's etc in C:SM but also keep the current list of stuff they don't get, Ironclad, thunder-fire Cannon's, Centurion's, hunter's etc. This one simple change whilst making them a supplement will resolve a lot of simple issue's in a heart beat. Point's discrepancies and access for our devastator's to grav-cannon's that are in the kit but we can't use are all fixed in one fell swoop. Although even I do think gladius should be DP only for the BA if they use it as their transports have fast and even I'm not that mental to suggest that fiasco from happening as it's bad enough already.
That's 80+%? of the codex/army list fixed and after all we are a codex compliant-ish chapter. This may not be Ideal to many but I think this is the best we can hope for for a long time. This alone could probably lift BA straight into the fair fight ground rather than the whipping league's where they have been for 7th ed pretty much and that's even without any tweak's to our own unique units like dread attack's.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 04:08:13
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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Martel732 wrote:Scatterlasers have been OP since they were introduced. There just have been a lot more limiting factors.
Yeah that's how games are balanced.
Scatterlasers being out of control has everything to do with 3-man Jetbike units. It's not like the very similar IG Multilaser can leverage the same advantages, and I don't think that's just a ROF issue. Meanwhile Warp Spiders are also bonkers with a S6 weapon, even with 12" range.
Scatterwalkers ARE good, but they're not anywhere near the major Eldar power units. I get the point you're trying to make but you are overdoing it just a tad.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/15 04:11:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 12:08:56
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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They were much better under the 5th ed vehicle rules, trust me. And 5th ed lists suffered against 10+ scatter lasers just as 7th ed suffers vs 20+ scatter lasers. Let me be clear: there weren't enough limiting factors on the weapon. It has always been too accessible in the Eldar codex, it's just much worse now.
The statline for the weapon itself is broken, and even more broken with the hull point system.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/15 12:13:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 13:29:26
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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I know you're stubborn, and I know you hate Eldar, but c'mon man. Right now in 7th:
Eldar Scatterlaser : 36" Heavy 4, S6 AP6
Guard Multilaser : 36" Heavy 3, S6 AP6
It's pretty much the same weapon. It's not broken for IG. So how is the problem the statline? Isn't Eldar supposed to have advanced technology and firepower, after all?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/06/15 13:36:19
Subject: Make Blood Angels Great Again
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
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To be fair though the eldar one has an extra shot and higher BS using it. And it's very dependent on the platform using it, a chimera and jetbike are very different.
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