Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Twiqbal wrote:
If we're talking about things that are basically rounding errors in good faith, then it doesn't really matter.

It isn't an error in good faith at all. You know that when you total up your list and it says 1503 points for a 1500 point game you have an illegal list. This isn't a case of "oops, I had no idea that was 3 points over", it's a deliberate decision to break the rules to gain an advantage.

Let them have the gun and I'll have the moral highground when we come to an issue later.

And that would be rather poor behavior. If you're going to accept the illegal list then you accept it, you don't hold that over them later when it's convenient for you to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Twiqbal wrote:
If you're going to really rules-lawyer on the limit then you're going to be some sort of hard-ass to deal with.

You have a very strange definition of "rules lawyer". The point limit is not ambiguous and there is nothing to argue about. You either have a legal list or you don't. Rules lawyering is about exploiting vague rules to gain an advantage, not saying "hey, I think we should play by the rules instead of cheating". If anything the rules lawyer is the person bringing the extra points and trying to get their opponent to bend the rules in their favor.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
If we're talking about things that are basically rounding errors in good faith, then it doesn't really matter.

It isn't an error in good faith at all. You know that when you total up your list and it says 1503 points for a 1500 point game you have an illegal list. This isn't a case of "oops, I had no idea that was 3 points over", it's a deliberate decision to break the rules to gain an advantage.

You've never seen a situation where someone miscalculated?

And that would be rather poor behavior. If you're going to accept the illegal list then you accept it, you don't hold that over them later when it's convenient for you to do so..

Nah, it's negotiation. You give them some rope, but you just did them a solid, so when you all are arguing over whether the captain can see through the trees or not, they're more likely to give you the benefit. More sugar than salt.

The point limit is not ambiguous and there is nothing to argue about. You either have a legal list or you don't.

And I'm saying it doesn't really matter. it's a game, and 3 points out of 1,500 is literally less than 1%, in other words, a rounding error. Pieces will be moved more or less than the specified distance, maybe accidentally 12.10 inches or 11.8 inches, again, it's margins that simply aren't material. When I buy a coffee and the cashier owes me 4 cents after I give them $2 for $1.96, and they give me a nickel because a nickel is less hassle than counting 4 pennies, we all recognize it doesn't really matter.

 Twiqbal wrote:
You've never seen a situation where someone miscalculated?

Of course I have, but that's not what we're talking about here. Saying "I'm 5 points over, is that ok" is not an accidental miscalculation. You know that your list is illegal, you just want to take it anyway.

And I'm saying it doesn't really matter. it's a game, and 3 points out of 1,500 is literally less than 1%, in other words, a rounding error. Pieces will be moved more or less than the specified distance, maybe accidentally 12.10 inches or 11.8 inches, again, it's margins that simply aren't material. When I buy a coffee and the cashier owes me 4 cents after I give them $2 for $1.96, and they give me a nickel because a nickel is less hassle than counting 4 pennies, we all recognize it doesn't really matter.

You know, it's funny that you say the people who insist on a strict limit are being rules lawyers when you've just provided a pretty good example of rules lawyering: breaking the rules to gain an advantage for yourself and then claiming "it's too small to matter" to justify it. This is exactly what I mean about how bringing an illegal list demonstrates your attitude towards the game even if it has very little practical impact on the outcome of the game. If you're willing to start the game by cheating and defend it with "I'm only cheating a little bit, so you should let me do it" then you're not the kind of person I really want to play against.

I think we also have to bear in mind that this forum is not a good representation of the hobby. I think you all represent a very serious player base ) My list wasnt a result of a miscalculation, i knew it was 3 points over, as the alternative would be to drop a whole unit of the limited models i have. It was a friendly game; i know tournaments would not allow this list, but in the 3 V 3 battle i played, everyone was within 5 points under to 5 over! I dont know whether you all put in mouthguards before you go and play a casual game of WH40K, but i like to see it as a game. Hence why every 2 weeks i agree to play a Tau supremacy battle suit list with an infrantry heavy CSM army. All in the name of fun!

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
I think we also have to bear in mind that this forum is not a good representation of the hobby.

I think you should consider that maybe some people are pissed off when you go 5 pts over but are too polite to say anything in real life because they also don't want to be impolite, but on the internet they'll be more inclined to speak their minds..

That's why I talk about it being rude or impolite to go over on points. Just because it doesn't get a response doesn't mean your opponent doesn't find it irksome. It's just not nice to put it back on your opponent to have to either accept it or turn it down.

I don't like it when my opponent goes 5pts over because I always make sure I'm within the points, even if it means I have to completely reshuffle my army because I don't have any wargear I can easily drop off..... but I'm still not going to make a dick of myself whinging about it at the local store when someone rocks up with an army that's 5pts over.

The internet is the place I can whinge about it annoying me without it affecting my actual social life because I can just close the window when I've had enough of all you bastards

Maybe I'm just odd but my thinking is that if I can't overcome letting someone have their five point upgrade then I'm probably not going to beat them when their list is right on the money.

Five points is a lucky roll.

Honestly i dont think they cared one bit haha! They proceeded to pull out their unbalanced resin battlesuits, which one could simply refuse to play. I think eventually this all comes down to how strict the match is and who the people are. I did ask several times as i was deploying for them to qualify that they were happy. I dont think it affected the quality of the game they had, nor how quickly they won XD

 Peregrine wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
You've never seen a situation where someone miscalculated?

Of course I have, but that's not what we're talking about here. Saying "I'm 5 points over, is that ok" is not an accidental miscalculation. You know that your list is illegal, you just want to take it anyway.

Illegal? What rules has he broken? You're not at a tournament. You agreed to play 1500 and he would now like to play 1503.

And I'm saying it doesn't really matter. it's a game, and 3 points out of 1,500 is literally less than 1%, in other words, a rounding error. Pieces will be moved more or less than the specified distance, maybe accidentally 12.10 inches or 11.8 inches, again, it's margins that simply aren't material. When I buy a coffee and the cashier owes me 4 cents after I give them $2 for $1.96, and they give me a nickel because a nickel is less hassle than counting 4 pennies, we all recognize it doesn't really matter.

 Peregrine wrote:
You know, it's funny that you say the people who insist on a strict limit are being rules lawyers when you've just provided a pretty good example of rules lawyering: breaking the rules to gain an advantage for yourself and then claiming "it's too small to matter" to justify it. This is exactly what I mean about how bringing an illegal list demonstrates your attitude towards the game even if it has very little practical impact on the outcome of the game. If you're willing to start the game by cheating and defend it with "I'm only cheating a little bit, so you should let me do it" then you're not the kind of person I really want to play against.

But it isn't rules lawyering? We aren't robots- and inevitably something will get pushed slightly too far or not enough. Simple parallax will make certain that your scatter dice rolls are never 100% accurately applied.
It's played with human eyeballs and tape measures on homemade boards, not drafting tables. The point was that the kind of player who'd get their panties in a twist over 3 points would also rage at the smallest human error on the table- breaking out the micrometers to double check their movements.

 Peregrine wrote:
you're not the kind of person I really want to play against.

I'd still play you both, at least once.

If your a new player then it can waved, but after a month you should be accurate.
If a player wants to play over points then they should inform there opponent as soon as possible, not as the game is being set up.
It's simply being rude, ask for a realistic points rise.
And ask as soon as you know, if you are always over points then inform them when you set up the game.
A lot of players won't hit exactly the right points, and will stay under.

In future to solve this as Apple fox suggested, i will request to play at 2005 points to still be able to use that list, BEFORE i arrive That way its not a surprise to my opponents

I have a Necron list I play that's 1837 points. I bring it to 1850 point games. I don't want to bring another Warrior because I want to mount the Warriors in their Arks.

So you'd be okay with me blatantly breaking the rules and just adding an Immortal and go 4 points over? That's stupid.

Also I've literally only miscalculated ONCE near the beginning of the hobby. I use Army Builder, Battle Scribe, AND write very thing down and have lists of varying point levels ready to go when I step into the LGS.

I probably wouldn't care, but I always go under rather than spilling over; there's always something you can drop.

If I had to set a limit, it'd probably be 1 less than the cheapest item on your list (so if you've got a 2 point additional weapon/object, you'd only be allowed to go over by 1).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So you'd be okay with me blatantly breaking the rules and just adding an Immortal and go 4 points over? That's stupid.

Well. Yes. It's just 4 points and if there's no upgrade of 5 points or whatever that you can remove then it doesn't really matter. If a tournament has a hard rule of up to 2000 points exactly or you want to add 40 then that's another thing but if someone says 1500 points and we bring lists that are 1499 and 1502 my reaction is *shrug*

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Maybe I'm just odd but my thinking is that if I can't overcome letting someone have their five point upgrade then I'm probably not going to beat them when their list is right on the money.

Five points is a lucky roll.

Im sure its a LOT less you letting them play than it is just a window into the opponents character if they cant be arsed to double check the math, or at least try and fix it.

its an agreement between two people to play at 1500 points not 1500+. there is basically no situation i can think of where its cool to do so.

not rules lawyering or competitiveness involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
You've never seen a situation where someone miscalculated?

Of course I have, but that's not what we're talking about here. Saying "I'm 5 points over, is that ok" is not an accidental miscalculation. You know that your list is illegal, you just want to take it anyway.

Illegal? What rules has he broken? You're not at a tournament. You agreed to play 1500 and he would now like to play 1503.

....soooooo Peregrine has every right to not play the guy then right? since he doesn't have to agree to the additional 3 points.

Going one point over is cheating. If you want to make an army that is 1501, then you may as well go 1850 or 2000 then.

The way I see it, if you can make an army at 1501 points you can make an army at 1500 points. I guess I am basing this on from what I read on the internet and the donkey caves here. While yes that 1 point is only giving an extra grenade or what ever by not allowing this the person might not be able to filed the Star Knight now because that would change his troop choice since taking that one point away would mean he can't take his troops. So now instead of taking his Star Knight he will have to take something else less powering. I said StarKnight because it can be that over powering unit that the donkey cave would take and is only taking it because it will be easier for him to win so that 1 point is a cheat. That being said I know not everyone is a Donkey Cave but since we are going off by the internet, that is how I view it. If it's in real life, it all depends on the person and circumstances you are playing since a lot of factors can factor into the decision.

As others have said if you agreed to a 1500 point game, then say you want to play a 1501 or a 1503 point game instead. Right away when you say you need to go "over a bit" you are already cheating. Say right from the beginning when you are asking for how many points to play. If it's 1503 and you don't want to be TFG who asks for it and then making your opponent TFG for refusing "a lousy 3 points" you in fact are the Donkey Cave.

The point people make is that a person who is sloppy with their list making will likely cut corners in gameplay. Ranges will be assumed or models will be moved in excess. And that person isn't worth playing.

You either follow the rules or you do not.
Sounds like a Yoda quote.
1 point over is according to the rules: cheating - end-stop.

The reason why so many rules in games say "with your opponent's permission" is because a game is only a game when you both agree to the terms and rules.
If you both agree to play 5 points more, that is fine.
You just do not get to decide for him.

Anyone who decides to play different from the rules and not inform their opponent is by definition: a cheater.

No opinion or "feeling" here.

Davor wrote:
Going one point over is cheating. If you want to make an army that is 1501, then you may as well go 1850 or 2000 then.

The way I see it, if you can make an army at 1501 points you can make an army at 1500 points. I guess I am basing this on from what I read on the internet and the donkey caves here. While yes that 1 point is only giving an extra grenade or what ever by not allowing this the person might not be able to filed the Star Knight now because that would change his troop choice since taking that one point away would mean he can't take his troops. So now instead of taking his Star Knight he will have to take something else less powering. I said StarKnight because it can be that over powering unit that the donkey cave would take and is only taking it because it will be easier for him to win so that 1 point is a cheat. That being said I know not everyone is a Donkey Cave but since we are going off by the internet, that is how I view it. If it's in real life, it all depends on the person and circumstances you are playing since a lot of factors can factor into the decision.

As others have said if you agreed to a 1500 point game, then say you want to play a 1501 or a 1503 point game instead. Right away when you say you need to go "over a bit" you are already cheating. Say right from the beginning when you are asking for how many points to play. If it's 1503 and you don't want to be TFG who asks for it and then making your opponent TFG for refusing "a lousy 3 points" you in fact are the Donkey Cave.

"If you go 1 point over, you are to be tried and executed for unsportsmanlike conduct"-Davor

 Desubot wrote:
....soooooo Peregrine has every right to not play the guy then right? since he doesn't have to agree to the additional 3 points.

You always have every right to not play someone. 'I do not feel like it anymore' is perfectly valid.

Ton of TFGs in this thread. Really hope none of you have ever gone 5 mph over the speed limit.

At the end of the day, 3 points over doesn't hurt. If your friend asks if you mind, you're well within your rights to say no, but no reason to get righteous about it.

You have every right not to play me haha. When i played this game, if anyone hadnt looked happy i would have just taken out a unit and played at 1950. If you dont want me to play a casual game 3 points over, dont be all sour over it, just tell me and ill make adjustments!!!! I won't make you feel bad over it, well just carry on and have a great game!!!!

 Desubot wrote:
....soooooo Peregrine has every right to not play the guy then right? since he doesn't have to agree to the additional 3 points.

Is there any situation where you are not 100% allowed to say, "I don't want to play this game with you," and not play? Yes, he's totally allowed to just not play the guy if he so chooses, for any reason he sees fit, and ideally he should be completely free to say no to the new points limit and insist on the original agreement. I think you could probably refuse to play a game in a tournament too, it'd probably just count as a forfeit or the most severe category of loss. I suppose maybe if you were playing the game as part of your job you might be required to play a game or else risk being fired.

 Twiqbal wrote:
Ton of TFGs in this thread. Really hope none of you have ever gone 5 mph over the speed limit.

At the end of the day, 3 points over doesn't hurt. If your friend asks if you mind, you're well within your rights to say no, but no reason to get righteous about it.

If it doesn't hurt me for you being 3 points over, then it won't hurt you to drop whatever is making you 3 points over and then be under the points?

Or you can hang around while I make a new list at the new 1503 point limit.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
Ton of TFGs in this thread. Really hope none of you have ever gone 5 mph over the speed limit.

At the end of the day, 3 points over doesn't hurt. If your friend asks if you mind, you're well within your rights to say no, but no reason to get righteous about it.

If it doesn't hurt me for you being 3 points over, then it won't hurt you to drop whatever is making you 3 points over and then be under the points?

Or you can hang around while I make a new list at the new 1503 point limit.

Sound like a plan! X

 Twiqbal wrote:
Ton of TFGs in this thread. Really hope none of you have ever gone 5 mph over the speed limit.
At the end of the day, 3 points over doesn't hurt. If your friend asks if you mind, you're well within your rights to say no, but no reason to get righteous about it.

Interesting determination of TFG: Those who prefer to work within the rules.

I will bite on the "straw man": an officer is well within their rights to pull you over for the 5mph over but typically decides it is not worth their time.

"3 points does not hurt" so that can easily apply in the other direction and stay below that much.
We have a rule for the limit but not how much "extra" you wish to go when the rules are inconvenient so guess which one makes more sense?

I tend to get "righteous about it" if nothing is said and people take the extra points as a matter of course without even a "by your leave".

When players decide to change a little rule here and there and feel it is not worth mentioning, you are by definition playing a different game than your opponent agreed to.
It is a "breach of trust", I would say feeling entitled to whatever you wish is more of a TFG behavior than anyone being strict about the rules would you not agree?

<edit> There are so many times I wanted that extra melta-bomb and had to forgo it due to being at 1998 out of 2000 pts and needed it later... it DOES make a big difference.
So yes, I can with clear conscience tell you to suck it up and do without.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
Ton of TFGs in this thread. Really hope none of you have ever gone 5 mph over the speed limit.
At the end of the day, 3 points over doesn't hurt. If your friend asks if you mind, you're well within your rights to say no, but no reason to get righteous about it.

Interesting determination of TFG: Those who prefer to work within the rules.

I will bite on the "straw man": an officer is well within their rights to pull you over for the 5mph over but typically decides it is not worth their time.

"3 points does not hurt" so that can easily apply in the other direction and stay below that much.
We have a rule for the limit but not how much "extra" you wish to go when the rules are inconvenient so guess which one makes more sense?

I tend to get "righteous about it" if nothing is said and people take the extra points as a matter of course without even a "by your leave".

When players decide to change a little rule here and there and feel it is not worth mentioning, you are by definition playing a different game than your opponent agreed to.
It is a "breach of trust", I would say feeling entitled to whatever you wish is more of a TFG behavior than anyone being strict about the rules would you not agree?

<edit> There are so many times I wanted that extra melta-bomb and had to forgo it due to being at 1998 out of 2000 pts and needed it later... it DOES make a big difference.
So yes, I can with clear conscience tell you to suck it up and do without.

Incase you havent seen my previous posts...i did 100000% ask!!!! If i needed one more melta bomb, i would have totally asked: hey guys can i go 3 points over? If they said no, then never mind! As i have said repeatedly i should have messaged them before and said: can we make the limit 2005k please?

 Talizvar wrote:

<edit> There are so many times I wanted that extra melta-bomb and had to forgo it due to being at 1998 out of 2000 pts and needed it later... it DOES make a big difference.
So yes, I can with clear conscience tell you to suck it up and do without.

That's a case of there being a 5-point upgrade you can remove to get under the limit, tho. There usually is something in the single-digits that can get the boot but if there isn't then it's just a few points over. It's a silly hill to die on, for sure.

I'll tell you how I deal with this...

When I agree to play someone at, we'll say, 2000 points, I expect that the armies will cost up to, but not over, 2000 points.

If someone wants to go over, I say, "Hey, no worries. Since you're going over, do you mind if I go over a bit?". If they were at 2003, I'll pick a 5 point upgrade... give someone a meltabomb or something. If they say ok, I know they're decent sports who just couldn't quite fit the list in the allotted points. If they say something to the effect of "but I'm only over by 3 points... you want to take 5 extra", then I know that sportsmanship isn't a priority. I generally embrace the former and walk away from the latter.

Drop an upgrade or a unit champ or something. Or trim that character down.

If I Agree to 2000 pts that's what i bring not 2001 or more. Often times I end up at 1990/2000 or sometimes even less. One game I played I was 23pts shy, all my units were maxed, formations etc, but adding even a minimum size unit would take me over by 20 or more. So I played 23 short. (And won). The only time I would accept an overage is notify me before the game. If you just CANT make it fit - and need 2005 - tell me. That way I can check my list and maybe get to the same mark. If I can't then fine, we are playing 2005 pts and lets roll. I've been in games that agreed to a pts lvl then at the end the other guy either brushes off his win or loss by going "well I was 15 pts over, so that may have been the factor" or some gak. Can't stand that. Makes the inner rage thirster in me get all green and grumpy.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'll tell you how I deal with this...

When I agree to play someone at, we'll say, 2000 points, I expect that the armies will cost up to, but not over, 2000 points.

If someone wants to go over, I say, "Hey, no worries. Since you're going over, do you mind if I go over a bit?". If they were at 2003, I'll pick a 5 point upgrade... give someone a meltabomb or something. If they say ok, I know they're decent sports who just couldn't quite fit the list in the allotted points. If they say something to the effect of "but I'm only over by 3 points... you want to take 5 extra", then I know that sportsmanship isn't a priority. I generally embrace the former and walk away from the latter.

Thats effectively what happened; he added an upgrade all sorted