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What? 11 3+s all day?
No you can't, and the units are only 5 models strong

Martel732 wrote:
Now fragnoughts can punch things out, too. Accept no substitutes. Fragnoughts. MCs have to pretend to pay attention to BA dreads now before they table us. Riptide is still unkillable, but hey, it's an upgrade.

You could make it T5 through a Biomancy Librarian and then Dreadnought it.

Of course that presents it's own problems, namely trying to catch it. But hey it's there.

 Frozocrone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Now fragnoughts can punch things out, too. Accept no substitutes. Fragnoughts. MCs have to pretend to pay attention to BA dreads now before they table us. Riptide is still unkillable, but hey, it's an upgrade.

You could make it T5 through a Biomancy Librarian and then Dreadnought it.

Of course that presents it's own problems, namely trying to catch it. But hey it's there.

I wish Magna Grapples worked on Monstrous Creatures. Rerolling charge range would help a little.

It really bugs me that Cassor the Damned and Murderfang are around the same price in points, but Murderfang is a lot more powerful. Now Murderfang is even more powerful.

Martel732 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Now I'm viewing the BA dreads as CC centurions. Slow and fragile but if podded properly they can be one hell of a menace. Never understood the appeal of fragiosos outside of templating the hell out of T3 armies(preferably gunlines). They would be a lot more awesome if they were anything other than elites. They wouldn't have to compete with DC, SG, and Sternguard. Ya know, units that are reliable AND useful

All that said, I might try running a pair of DC dreads with a libby dread in a 1K escalation on wednesday. I'll report back. I need your best wishes my libby gets wings people. He's gonna need it.

Because frag cannons murder blackknights and anything relying on cover that doesn't have a 2+ save.

I'm confused? How does two extra HTH attacks make a shooting dreadnaught better? If your hoping the cannons to do all the killing, it wouldn't matter if the dread had only one HTH attack.

Dreads still suffer the same problem they always have this edition, can't assault the turn they come in, still slow movement and worse of all one immobilzed result and they spend the game twittling their DCCWs. Now if the FAQ only said, +2 attacks and +2 Hull points to their profile they might be useful. SM dreads didn't start flooding the tables because of two more attacks. All this does is make all the other SM chapters no longer keep the continued whine of why not us?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
So how many wounds can you drop on black knights( with their large bases and proper spacing) with a Frag cannon? If placed PERFECTLY 10, maybe 11? I can roll 11 3+s all day long mate. If you add in a second frag cannon on another dread that's when it gets interesting, but then after you destroy said unit, you get either blown up or immobilized and you've just wasted 2 very, very valuable elite slots on a half assed alpha strike.

Like I said, I know lots of people love em, but if the models aren't on a 28mm base with an okay or worse save, I can't see them being worth the slot and even its points are questionable in my opinion.

That's 4 dead black knights there. How many black knights cost exactly?

Black Knights are a pain due to Hit and Run, and their Plasma Talons. They attack on their terms, not the Furioso's.

At which point it matters not whether frag cannon has assault 10 S10 AP2 or heavy 1 S1 AP-? If one can't shoot either is pointless. If one can shoot then frag cannon is still killing quite a lot.

3+ save isn't that hot. And as any deathwing player knows "lascannon kills a terminator. Rapid fire kills a squad".

tneva82 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
So how many wounds can you drop on black knights( with their large bases and proper spacing) with a Frag cannon? If placed PERFECTLY 10, maybe 11? I can roll 11 3+s all day long mate. If you add in a second frag cannon on another dread that's when it gets interesting, but then after you destroy said unit, you get either blown up or immobilized and you've just wasted 2 very, very valuable elite slots on a half assed alpha strike.

Like I said, I know lots of people love em, but if the models aren't on a 28mm base with an okay or worse save, I can't see them being worth the slot and even its points are questionable in my opinion.

That's 4 dead black knights there. How many black knights cost exactly?

Black Knights are a pain due to Hit and Run, and their Plasma Talons. They attack on their terms, not the Furioso's.

At which point it matters not whether frag cannon has assault 10 S10 AP2 or heavy 1 S1 AP-? If one can't shoot either is pointless. If one can shoot then frag cannon is still killing quite a lot.

3+ save isn't that hot. And as any deathwing player knows "lascannon kills a terminator. Rapid fire kills a squad".

Having two extra attacks certainly doesn't hurt. But the preferred tactic of Black Knights (running alongside a Land Speeder Darkshroud) makes the Frag Cannon worthless since the Darkshroud will make the Furioso unable to fire Overwatch.

The knights would then be hit with at least 4 str10 ap2 hits at init 4. The last thing you want is to charge the dread in this case.

Black Knights skirt around Dreadnoughts and hit rear armour with Plasma.

The Furiouso puts in work against Black knights by denying their cover save, possibly their armour save.

So can I make a list with 6 dreads then? Would it be viable?

Dreads was what brought me into 40k anyway.

kburn wrote:
So can I make a list with 6 dreads then? Would it be viable?

Dreads was what brought me into 40k anyway.

It really depends on your local meta. I was able to run Ork walker heavy lists but that was because guys in my group didn't play cheese/super list tailor and the walkers were able to live better than they normally would.

kburn wrote:
So can I make a list with 6 dreads then? Would it be viable?

Dreads was what brought me into 40k anyway.

Viable, probably not, workable, sure. Try it out. But agreed, I love my Angry Washing Machines (I have five of them right now).

kburn wrote:
So can I make a list with 6 dreads then? Would it be viable?

Dreads was what brought me into 40k anyway.

Well they didn't bring me to 40k per se but I remember enjoying story in the 3rd armageddon war of huge dreadnought vs ork walker battle. Can't wait to play something like that with the 2nd ed rules(where dreadnoughts are actually threat to be affraid off!). Just need few more walkers...9 killa kans, 3 ork dreadnoughts and like 3,4 dreadnoughts. Though need to make up rules for killa kans and BA lib dread. But going to be fun

Black Knights was just an example. There's actually a lot of good targets for the frag cannon. The extra two CC attacks will help against tarpit a lot.

" I can roll 11 3+s all day long mate"

No, you can't. You'll fail 3-4 each time you try. Sometimes you'll get them all, but sometimes you'll fail 6. I'll take 3-4 dead black knights. If you shoot your plasma at my rear armor, it's still better than that vanguard squad that just arrived. Once DA are down to just speeders, they lose. I assault you off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Now I'm viewing the BA dreads as CC centurions. Slow and fragile but if podded properly they can be one hell of a menace. Never understood the appeal of fragiosos outside of templating the hell out of T3 armies(preferably gunlines). They would be a lot more awesome if they were anything other than elites. They wouldn't have to compete with DC, SG, and Sternguard. Ya know, units that are reliable AND useful

All that said, I might try running a pair of DC dreads with a libby dread in a 1K escalation on wednesday. I'll report back. I need your best wishes my libby gets wings people. He's gonna need it.

SG are terrible. They don't compete with anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Now I'm viewing the BA dreads as CC centurions. Slow and fragile but if podded properly they can be one hell of a menace. Never understood the appeal of fragiosos outside of templating the hell out of T3 armies(preferably gunlines). They would be a lot more awesome if they were anything other than elites. They wouldn't have to compete with DC, SG, and Sternguard. Ya know, units that are reliable AND useful

All that said, I might try running a pair of DC dreads with a libby dread in a 1K escalation on wednesday. I'll report back. I need your best wishes my libby gets wings people. He's gonna need it.

Because frag cannons murder blackknights and anything relying on cover that doesn't have a 2+ save.

I'm confused? How does two extra HTH attacks make a shooting dreadnaught better? If your hoping the cannons to do all the killing, it wouldn't matter if the dread had only one HTH attack.

Dreads still suffer the same problem they always have this edition, can't assault the turn they come in, still slow movement and worse of all one immobilzed result and they spend the game twittling their DCCWs. Now if the FAQ only said, +2 attacks and +2 Hull points to their profile they might be useful. SM dreads didn't start flooding the tables because of two more attacks. All this does is make all the other SM chapters no longer keep the continued whine of why not us?

Because AV 13 sometimes lives. And having four attacks makes it much more double duty as an anti-MC unit.

Not only BA dreads get a huge boost.

For SW, imagine Bjorn with his brethren of the fell handed in pods. If they all charge one unit, 12 hits (assuming they have the axe and shield, and to be honest, why wouldn't you?), rerolling failed at ws 5, and then 7 attacks at ws 6 rerolling to hit and wound.
Or, put murderfang in a pod along side that formation of 2 dreads an iron priest for IWND.

kburn wrote:
So can I make a list with 6 dreads then? Would it be viable?

Dreads was what brought me into 40k anyway.

Space Wolves does it a little better than BAs because of the Company of the Great Wolf detachment (which lets you take dreadnoughts for all compulsories).

I am currently building a SW army led by bjorn and comprised entirely of dreads.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a shame BA doesn't have telepathy, a Lib Dread with both Psychic Shriek and Frag Cannons could really put the pain on MSU Scatterbikes.

Future FAQ material maybe?

I wouldn't count on it. The card that came with the AA Psychic Powers still has them not having access to Telekinesis or Telepathy. Why the best Loyalist Space Marine Psykers lack access to anything, but DA still get them is beyond me.

Dark Angels ARE the best loyalist Space Marines!

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Dark Angels ARE the best loyalist Space Marines!

Loyalist?

The whole demanding the same thing for Helbrutes just seems like demanding something on principle, and not much else.

Why? Because:

Competitive tournament players wouldn't use them in their lists even if they got 2 bonus attacks. They'd still be bad in the current meta, as is their Codex as a whole.

The fluffy players who want to play them, already play them and 2 attacks from a dread that becomes obsolete when shot once with a Gravgun hardly makes any real difference.

You know the above to be true.

Just demanding something out of principle "because others got it too" is a bit childish, and secondly an endless road. Next step is to start demanding chapter tactics, yada yada yada.

 Runic wrote:
The whole demanding the same thing for Helbrutes just seems like demanding something on principle, and not much else.

Why? Because:

Competitive tournament players wouldn't use them in their lists even if they got 2 bonus attacks. They'd still be bad in the current meta, as is their Codex as a whole.

The fluffy players who want to play them, already play them and 2 attacks from a dread that becomes obsolete when shot once with a Gravgun hardly makes any real difference.

You know the above to be true.

Just demanding something out of principle "because others got it too" is a bit childish, and secondly an endless road. Next step is to start demanding chapter tactics, yada yada yada.

Helbrutes should have 4 attacks as well. It just keeps the dreadnought a little more up-to-date in the 7th ed meta.

 Runic wrote:
The whole demanding the same thing for Helbrutes just seems like demanding something on principle, and not much else.

Why? Because:

Competitive tournament players wouldn't use them in their lists even if they got 2 bonus attacks. They'd still be bad in the current meta, as is their Codex as a whole.

The fluffy players who want to play them, already play them and 2 attacks from a dread that becomes obsolete when shot once with a Gravgun hardly makes any real difference.

You know the above to be true.

Just demanding something out of principle "because others got it too" is a bit childish, and secondly an endless road. Next step is to start demanding chapter tactics, yada yada yada.

Helbrutes are for all intents and purposes loyalist dreadnoughts. They cost the same and are quite literally warped loyalist dreads. They are about as much of a mirror unit as you can get.
So bringing all dreadnoughts in line quite reasonably entails also buffing helbrutes. Not so much maulerfiends and even less so for ork dreads, but updating helbrutes is a logical consequence to this errata.

I love all the arm chair anti dread generals.

AV 12 in cover is nothing to sneeze at. AV 13 is even better.

The dreads biggest issue is how easy it was to bog down and kill in assault. It was always good at shooting.

Now that you get one grenade and have to deal with four or more attacks, that is a pretty massive buff imo. Most squads are going to break against those odds outside of dedicated storm shield thunder hammer units......

Dreads are also kinda slow. But unlike other walkers it can at least buy a drop pod.

I remember the days of trolling enemy armor with a bare-bones MM dread in a pod. Mmmm cheapness.

Grav is a serious problem. However, you'll need to use grav cannons to be assured of getting a "6".

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a shame BA doesn't have telepathy, a Lib Dread with both Psychic Shriek and Frag Cannons could really put the pain on MSU Scatterbikes.

Future FAQ material maybe?

I wouldn't count on it. The card that came with the AA Psychic Powers still has them not having access to Telekinesis or Telepathy. Why the best Loyalist Space Marine Psykers lack access to anything, but DA still get them is beyond me.

Dark Angels ARE the best loyalist Space Marines!

Not even. If anything the DA are the most pathetic, heretical Loyalist Chapter due to there actions during the Horus Heresy and currently in the 40k universe.

As for the Furioso, I have always run them in Drop Pods while the rest of my Army advances with the use of transports and jump back infantry. Personally that is the best way I have found to use them, because they force your opponent to address them most of the time and now they have become even better at it.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a shame BA doesn't have telepathy, a Lib Dread with both Psychic Shriek and Frag Cannons could really put the pain on MSU Scatterbikes.

Future FAQ material maybe?

I wouldn't count on it. The card that came with the AA Psychic Powers still has them not having access to Telekinesis or Telepathy. Why the best Loyalist Space Marine Psykers lack access to anything, but DA still get them is beyond me.

Dark Angels ARE the best loyalist Space Marines!

Not even. If anything the DA are the most pathetic, heretical Loyalist Chapter due to there actions during the Horus Heresy and currently in the 40k universe.

Based on? If you're talking about Fenris, A) Tzeentch/The Changeling fooled them into doing it because plot reasons and B) the Space Wolves deserve it for being willing to fight alongside the Wulfen

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a shame BA doesn't have telepathy, a Lib Dread with both Psychic Shriek and Frag Cannons could really put the pain on MSU Scatterbikes.

Future FAQ material maybe?

I wouldn't count on it. The card that came with the AA Psychic Powers still has them not having access to Telekinesis or Telepathy. Why the best Loyalist Space Marine Psykers lack access to anything, but DA still get them is beyond me.

Dark Angels ARE the best loyalist Space Marines!

Not even. If anything the DA are the most pathetic, heretical Loyalist Chapter due to there actions during the Horus Heresy and currently in the 40k universe.

Based on? If you're talking about Fenris, A) Tzeentch/The Changeling fooled them into doing it because plot reasons and B) the Space Wolves deserve it for being willing to fight alongside the Wulfen

Horus Heresy: Gave weapons to the Iron Warriors that were used to slaughter nearly all of the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands, sat back and waited when the Battle of Terra was going on, and the Lion set things in motion that lead to a good part of his Legion betraying them.

40k: Are Hostile towards other Marine Chapters, willing to shoot and kill other Space Marines to preserve their secret, untrustworthy, very emo..... I can go on lol .

Stay on topic please mate.

X

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
So aside from using Cassor, is there any way to make a pure BA Dread army? It's been a while since i looked into their formations.

Sadly to make a pure BA dreadnought list (minus Drop Pods) you NEED cassor
Play the "Flesh Tearers Strike Force" FoC (compulsory 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack) as Cassor is a Troop Choice, then just fill up all 6 of your Fast Attack slots with Drop Pods

I once made a 2000 point list using this, it also has a Warhound in it
I believe it is still on the BA tactics page on 1d4chan, just under where it lists the "Flesh Tearers Strike Force"

daveh974 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah 1100 points could get you a FT detachment of 2 lv2 furilibbies with flamers in pods, 3 fragiosos in pods, and Cassor in a pod. Good launching point for adding in skyhammer or 1st company podded sterns.

You could also do a Archangels Sanguine Wing. Lots of free upgrades.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact I wish that the Librarian Furioso could replace their arm with a Frag Cannon. They already lose out on Specialist Weapon, might as well get to blow stuff up.

They don't lose out on specialist weapon. They're walkers they gain +1 attacks based on a different rule wording than basic models do. I don't have my book so you'll have to look it up.

Wait... really? Im at work so I cant look it up either lol

 th3maninblak wrote:

daveh974 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah 1100 points could get you a FT detachment of 2 lv2 furilibbies with flamers in pods, 3 fragiosos in pods, and Cassor in a pod. Good launching point for adding in skyhammer or 1st company podded sterns.

You could also do a Archangels Sanguine Wing. Lots of free upgrades.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact I wish that the Librarian Furioso could replace their arm with a Frag Cannon. They already lose out on Specialist Weapon, might as well get to blow stuff up.

They don't lose out on specialist weapon. They're walkers they gain +1 attacks based on a different rule wording than basic models do. I don't have my book so you'll have to look it up.

Wait... really? Im at work so I cant look it up either lol

No. Specialist Weapon's rules trump the rule in the Walker description.