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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A military commander's job is to direct the flow of the battle, not to participate in the battle. The commander's sidearm is for self defense when they have failed as a leader. Space Marine HQs firing their range weapons in combat exemplifies how bad they are as leaders, and way they fail so hard at their job.

SJ

A human commander who has the same lifespam as everyone else and can take maybe 2 bullets. A Space Marine Captain may have centuries of battlefield experience and be able to understand the battlefield and war like no one else can, can take phenomenal amounts of punishment and are more skilled than any other member of the chapter and sometimes are the only ones capable of doing the fighting. A 60 year old general is no good on the front lines, but a 400 year old superhuman is. They lead from the front and by example, and they don't fail at their jobs. Every other story about Space Marine captains is how they arrived at such and such a battle that was at a stalemate or losing and turned it around into a decisive victory is weeks/days/hours/with a single maneuver.

 Deadshot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A military commander's job is to direct the flow of the battle, not to participate in the battle. The commander's sidearm is for self defense when they have failed as a leader. Space Marine HQs firing their range weapons in combat exemplifies how bad they are as leaders, and way they fail so hard at their job.

SJ

A human commander who has the same lifespam as everyone else and can take maybe 2 bullets. A Space Marine Captain may have centuries of battlefield experience and be able to understand the battlefield and war like no one else can, can take phenomenal amounts of punishment and are more skilled than any other member of the chapter and sometimes are the only ones capable of doing the fighting. A 60 year old general is no good on the front lines, but a 400 year old superhuman is. They lead from the front and by example, and they don't fail at their jobs. Every other story about Space Marine captains is how they arrived at such and such a battle that was at a stalemate or losing and turned it around into a decisive victory is weeks/days/hours/with a single maneuver.

This. They aren't just strategists- they are combatants in a way that IG colonels generally aren't.
You or I might find it hard to give orders to ten squads and support whilst operating a heavy weapon. A marine has a backpack with servo arms and ammunition supplies that take care of all the hard work- he just needs to lock his autosenses and fire, whilst grunting commands into his suit's vox.

You may as well question commanders with jumppacks- a device designed to throw them into the enemy lines.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A military commander's job is to direct the flow of the battle, not to participate in the battle. The commander's sidearm is for self defense when they have failed as a leader. Space Marine HQs firing their range weapons in combat exemplifies how bad they are as leaders, and way they fail so hard at their job.

SJ

A human commander who has the same lifespam as everyone else and can take maybe 2 bullets. A Space Marine Captain may have centuries of battlefield experience and be able to understand the battlefield and war like no one else can, can take phenomenal amounts of punishment and are more skilled than any other member of the chapter and sometimes are the only ones capable of doing the fighting. A 60 year old general is no good on the front lines, but a 400 year old superhuman is. They lead from the front and by example, and they don't fail at their jobs. Every other story about Space Marine captains is how they arrived at such and such a battle that was at a stalemate or losing and turned it around into a decisive victory is weeks/days/hours/with a single maneuver.

This. They aren't just strategists- they are combatants in a way that IG colonels generally aren't.
You or I might find it hard to give orders to ten squads and support whilst operating a heavy weapon. A marine has a backpack with servo arms and ammunition supplies that take care of all the hard work- he just needs to lock his autosenses and fire, whilst grunting commands into his suit's vox.

You may as well question commanders with jumppacks- a device designed to throw them into the enemy lines.

And a well placed shot decapitates your army. Challenging out the Primarch only to see him die defeats his legion ever when they are winning. Sniping out the Captain means the strategy now falls on the less experienced lieutenant's shoulders. Yes, 40k is the heroes story. Roboute Gilliman is venerated because he didn't waste his talents as a grunt on his own front line. A Commander that meets the enemy in personal combat is a failure as a leader, because they have chosen not to lead.

Space Marines fight like the cast of Cats act, by rote memory and passion for the art. Which is why smarter opponents win.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A military commander's job is to direct the flow of the battle, not to participate in the battle. The commander's sidearm is for self defense when they have failed as a leader. Space Marine HQs firing their range weapons in combat exemplifies how bad they are as leaders, and way they fail so hard at their job.

SJ

A human commander who has the same lifespam as everyone else and can take maybe 2 bullets. A Space Marine Captain may have centuries of battlefield experience and be able to understand the battlefield and war like no one else can, can take phenomenal amounts of punishment and are more skilled than any other member of the chapter and sometimes are the only ones capable of doing the fighting. A 60 year old general is no good on the front lines, but a 400 year old superhuman is. They lead from the front and by example, and they don't fail at their jobs. Every other story about Space Marine captains is how they arrived at such and such a battle that was at a stalemate or losing and turned it around into a decisive victory is weeks/days/hours/with a single maneuver.

This. They aren't just strategists- they are combatants in a way that IG colonels generally aren't.
You or I might find it hard to give orders to ten squads and support whilst operating a heavy weapon. A marine has a backpack with servo arms and ammunition supplies that take care of all the hard work- he just needs to lock his autosenses and fire, whilst grunting commands into his suit's vox.

You may as well question commanders with jumppacks- a device designed to throw them into the enemy lines.

And a well placed shot decapitates your army. Challenging out the Primarch only to see him die defeats his legion ever when they are winning. Sniping out the Captain means the strategy now falls on the less experienced lieutenant's shoulders. Yes, 40k is the heroes story. Roboute Gilliman is venerated because he didn't waste his talents as a grunt on his own front line. A Commander that meets the enemy in personal combat is a failure as a leader, because they have chosen not to lead.

Space Marines fight like the cast of Cats act, by rote memory and passion for the art. Which is why smarter opponents win.

SJ

Except no one defeats a Primarch except another Primarch. The captain beats you because he is centuries older and a better fighter, or he has a maneuver in place that puts himself at harm in order to win the wider battle. Guilliman had tactical acumen such that the wider battle was his best place, but Angron was better off rampaging enemy lines because he's worth more there. Killing off a captain just means the veteran sergeant of 3 centuries learning from said captain now takes charge and same situation. A commander that meets the enemy is personal combat because no one else is able to defeat the enemy is just doing the obviously smart thing which is not waste his soldiers on a useless action. For example. Why sit back and order this squad to tackle that Ork Boss and his Meganobz when you, Captain Awesomesauce of the Supermarines, can waltz in with a Thunder Hammer and defeat them all yourself in the same time, taking out the enemy commander and sending them into dissarray, while also allowing your troops to do other jobs. Space Marines are of equal physical ability no matter their age, unlike humans. Not putting that to use by hunching over a warroom table is irresponsible.

You can't out age a bullet, or dodge a nuke. Your combat prowess is meaningless versus a gunline. Be as transhuman as you want, a stray bit of shrapnel will still end your day. And above any other maxim, a leader that fights instead of leads is a fighter, not a leader. It is ridiculous to assume Astartes are even remotely competent when their leadership courts sudden death by fighting challenges and blazing away with bolter fire instead of staying out of combat while directing the fight over multiple fronts.

A SEAL team leader would get his butt chewed for expending a single round during a fire fight, because they would have fail at their job of staying disengaged so they can observe and direct the mission. Astartes are terribad at their jobs because their doctrine is built on movie tropes.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can't out age a bullet, or dodge a nuke. Your combat prowess is meaningless versus a gunline. Be as transhuman as you want, a stray bit of shrapnel will still end your day. And above any other maxim, a leader that fights instead of leads is a fighter, not a leader. It is ridiculous to assume Astartes are even remotely competent when their leadership courts sudden death by fighting challenges and blazing away with bolter fire instead of staying out of combat while directing the fight over multiple fronts.

A SEAL team leader would get his butt chewed for expending a single round during a fire fight, because they would have fail at their job of staying disengaged so they can observe and direct the mission. Astartes are terribad at their jobs because their doctrine is built on movie tropes.

SJ

Except that's a SEAL team leader (human) and not a Space Marine. Space Marines do all of that simultaneous, while tanking that gunline. Shrapnel vs PA? Are you kidding? A single bullet doesn't do gak vs a hardened Space Marine veteran. some of them survive being ripped limb from limb and get put in giant warmachines to lend their tactical experience to new commanders while also ripping the enemy limb from limb and being even tougher to finally kill.

Let me just reiterate this. Space Marines are better than humans and follow movie tropes because they are designed to make movie tropes work. Every potential threat to movie trope tactics has been thought about and made irrelevant.

And if a an opponent is using a nuke to kill the enemy leader, job well done, they've expended their WMD to kill 1 easily replaced leader. Except they don't fire that nuke because while the leader was dueling their leader he wasn't paying attention to the squads hitting his undefended nukes while simulaneouly his army lost to a superior foe in hiding (the space marine squad hitting from orbit via drop pod).

40k is high fantasy. Nothing about this setting is practical or remotely grounded in reality. Besides in the table top YOU are the commander who issues the orders and makes decisions. Your troops (be it a chapter master or a lowly grot) are the pawns and cogs that do their task and generally die a glorious death. Besides the fluff and the narrative of 40k is basically propaganda and hero worship so of course the "leaders" who get into close combat tend to become glorified. For crying out loud we have old man Yarrick who has a freaking power klaw attached to his arm after he cut it off a Warboss in close combat.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Roboute Gilliman is venerated because he didn't waste his talents as a grunt on his own front line. A Commander that meets the enemy in personal combat is a failure as a leader, because they have chosen not to lead.

Like the time he teleported down with TWO POWER FISTS to fight Angron and Lorgar? Tactical genius.
Like the time he fought hand to hand with Alpharius and killed him, ridding the Alpha Legion of their leadership forever? He sure outwitted him.
Like the time he fought a multi armed Daemon primarch and got his throat nicked with a venomed blade, dooming him to be stasis'd forever? Chessmaster at work.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Space Marines fight like the cast of Cats act, by rote memory and passion for the art. Which is why smarter opponents win.

Do they win?
Or do the leadership of the dying Eldar race also carry swords and spears and ride attack bikes and fly around on wings?
Do the alien Tau commanders strap themselves into mecha with short ranged plasmaguns and meltaguns - often of a completely different model to their rank and file battlesuit pilots?
I'm aware that human commanders often lead by example, fighting at the front and where they choose to lead from the rear, teleport and drop pod assaults often render such a tactic ineffective.

Perhaps in the 41st millenium, show of force is an important facet of psychological warfare against prideful Eldar and barbaric Orks. Perhaps a commander being at the front and being seen to rout the enemy, whether or not a duel is actually fought, is incredibly culturally significant for all races involved, 40,000 years in the future. Perhaps a 21st century army wouldn't achieve the same victories as the guard- they might just piss off an enemy who never observe a single banner or glorious charge, strengthening their resolve that their opponents are weakings.

Perhaps if you reject the efficacy of this approach, there are other wargames and universes for you.

2nd ed eldars had ability to carry heavier weapons. Melta guns, missile launchers etc. Though in balance that meant they couldn't ignore targeting rules anymore like normal characters. High BS heavy weapon capable of targeting anything would have been too nasty sniper.

 Kommisar Kyn wrote:

This has to have rules

Yes, yes this does need rules. Awesome conversion dude!

Just to note, It is not my conversion. But yeah it is great : D

Melevolence wrote:
I wish there were a few Ork vehicles that had were designed to be scratch built and had various options and rules that reflected your choices.

Likely would be too complicated to do but...would be cool of them to at least try.

Did you ever readd Imperial Armour 8 and the Dread mob list? There are rules for just that: the Mekboy Junka, Looted wagon, Guntrukk and Gunwagon are all you need. I've build myself a junka with a Shock Attack gun, one with a Grot bomb launcher and one with 4 flamers as well as an open-topped transport vehicle.

 Vankraken wrote:
I really want to mount an avenger gatling cannon inside the nose of a dakkajet to make an Ork version of an A-10. Ork flyers really need moar dakka.

Use the Blastabomber from IA:8. It has the Deff Arsenal which is a 3d6 S9 AP3 gun, as well as 9 Big shootas IIRC. Do you need even more Dakka? Here's my (WIP) conversion for the machine. Do you really need more Dakka?

Hmm. Still needs more Dakka!

(That is still an impressive amount of dakka. Fairly sure firing everything at once would start making it fly backwards though!)

It appear you guys are missing my point, be it intentional or not.

My point is that Space Marines exemplify movie trope over the top elite military, which even in a fantasy setting is still bad bith tactically and strategically. And the reason why is because they are written to be horrible at their jobs. If they were in fact good at their jobs, they would be an integrated part of the Imperial war machine rather than a devicive element in the Imperium. And I am pretty sure it is intentional.

You do not put your most important leader in front of your troops so he can take cannon blasts to the chest while the troops fire their popguns around his waist and over his shoulders. That's asinine. Yet, Astartes do it all the time in fluff and in game. Because they are tactically stupid. They stand in the open relying on their armor when simply taking covered firing points while providing covering fire for a leap frogging forward is a time proven tactic that children can perform it with little practice.

My point is that Astartes are written to be really bad at their jobs, because if they were even remotely good at their jobs they would have conquered the galaxy and successfully suppressed any rebelions, effectively giving us no game at all. The game exists because Astartes are god-children warriors with poor military training.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


My point is that Astartes are written to be really bad at their jobs, because if they were even remotely good at their jobs they would have conquered the galaxy and successfully suppressed any rebelions, effectively giving us no game at all. The game exists because Astartes are god-children warriors with poor military training.

Your point makes me think of how nonsensical Star Trek is in the way the captains of the extremely powerful starships put themselves in harms way intentionally time and time again. "It's OK, Number One, if I don't come back, make it so."

Back on topic, I'd love to see some rules for 40k Skaven. I'd also like to see rules for Medieval-level Astra Militarum regiments.

jeffersonian - You say it's stupid, and ineffective, and myriads else. Yet it works in setting. I don't care if it wouldn't in our universe, or any other. It works in 40k, and that's what matters.

You can't cite modern terms, are we don't have anything that can do that same thing. Space Marines can walk for storms of bullets, shrug off battlecannon rounds, and STILL command the battle. That's why they're so vaunted in fluff.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
jeffersonian - You say it's stupid, and ineffective, and myriads else. Yet it works in setting. I don't care if it wouldn't in our universe, or any other. It works in 40k, and that's what matters.

You can't cite modern terms, are we don't have anything that can do that same thing. Space Marines can walk for storms of bullets, shrug off battlecannon rounds, and STILL command the battle. That's why they're so vaunted in fluff.

It doesn't work in setting, though. The setting is full of stupid decisions losing battles, leaders failing to do their jobs because they sot glory, and navel commanders taking orders from Astartes line soldiers which lead to unnecessary slaughter.

Of course it leads to cool conversions. My Sister Seraphim Superior with Power Fist still gets head to turn.

SJ

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

Use the Blastabomber from IA:8. It has the Deff Arsenal which is a 3d6 S9 AP3 gun, as well as 9 Big shootas IIRC. Do you need even more Dakka? Here's my (WIP) conversion for the machine. Do you really need more Dakka?

No but not having a 10/10/10 hull on a 400-600 point model would help.

A Malcador Tank with a twin-linked Volkite Demi-culverin like the Leman Russ Incinerator.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It appear you guys are missing my point, be it intentional or not.

My point is that Space Marines exemplify movie trope over the top elite military, which even in a fantasy setting is still bad bith tactically and strategically. And the reason why is because they are written to be horrible at their jobs. If they were in fact good at their jobs, they would be an integrated part of the Imperial war machine rather than a devicive element in the Imperium. And I am pretty sure it is intentional.

You do not put your most important leader in front of your troops so he can take cannon blasts to the chest while the troops fire their popguns around his waist and over his shoulders. That's asinine. Yet, Astartes do it all the time in fluff and in game. Because they are tactically stupid. They stand in the open relying on their armor when simply taking covered firing points while providing covering fire for a leap frogging forward is a time proven tactic that children can perform it with little practice.

My point is that Astartes are written to be really bad at their jobs, because if they were even remotely good at their jobs they would have conquered the galaxy and successfully suppressed any rebelions, effectively giving us no game at all. The game exists because Astartes are god-children warriors with poor military training.

SJ

Except

A) They are not bad at their jobs. See the X thousand stories of Space Marines saving the day in a single attack after weeks of Imperial Guard meat grinder.

B) The commander has a forcefield capable of reflecting anything.

C) Their armour is better than the cover. Just because the tabletop models always die to AP3 and buckets of dice doesn't mean the fluff versions do.

D) Again, why take cover and leapfrog when you can send your entire guys marching forwards at once and the enemy can't hurt you? Or better yet, drop your guys straight into enemy lines in giant metal boxes fired from orbit, because, y'know, they are tough and deadly enough that they don't care about enemy guns.

E) They aren't an integrated part in the same way nothing is integrated. Every element of the imperial armed forces is a seperate entity to prevent Horus Heresy Mk2. The Space Marines have relatively small and weak ships so the Navy can counter an Astartes rebellion, small numbers so the Imperial Guard can outnumber them, but the Navy doesn't have any proper fighters so are vulnerable to Astartes boarding, and the Imperial guard are squishy and badly trained. Its rock paper scissors lizard Spock.

F) Just because the medieval space fantasy featuring supersoldiers doesn't conform to your vision of having elite space knight supersoldiers doing squishy human Special Forcs tactics, doesn't mean its wrong, it means you are incapable of realising 40K and Space Marines are a Michael Bay's wet dream, and don't care one bit about your modern tactics.

Take the SM vs navy SEAL argument to another thread.

I'd love for the cadians on bikes that I have converted to be able to... you know... not have to use horses 38000 years in the future.