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str00dles1 wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
$60 USD is a crazy price for a game with four plastic models.

It basically amounts to a 50% on the four minis with a free minigame included.

Suppose the minis cost $100 each, making this box an 85% discount off retail. Would the box suddenly become more valuable to you than it is currently?

Crazy is crazy.

Of course it would. Your spending 60 to save 340 bucks. 95% of these one off games GW makes are for the minis, not the actual game. The one offs are short time fillers. You can buy this to use the models in Silver Tower and in Age of sigmar, so 60$ for this is a great price. Ive paid for more games that come with crappy colored wooden meeples. Id rather get 4 high quality/detailed plastic figures.

Don't be dissing meeple. They're a staple of the gaming community

Yay more pricing discussions, wooo.

Yeah... it's gonna' take a very nice human-sized model for me to think it's worth $15, and as a board gamer, I think that's an absurd price for four pawns in what I'm expecting is going to be a cheap little game without great replay value.

If you just think of them as pawns, then I imagine someone will sell you the cards and tiles for $5-10. It's disingenuous to ignore the fact that the game is using high quality gaming pieces rather than minimal tokens in order to compare the cost to those minimally required tokens.

Also, by 28mm standards, those characters are all ogre sized rather than human sized.

decker_cky wrote:
Also, by 28mm standards, those characters are all ogre sized rather than human sized.

Yes, yes they are

decker, I more meant that the price for what you get will likely turn off just about any board gamer.

Regarding them being pawns, I mostly meant that they're just play pieces. I think GW's doing what GW does best, which is make a kit too complex, then charge even more for it, based on it being too complex.

Regarding size, I don't have any comparison shots. So, they're like 2.5" tall? 'cause that's what I'm used to as a minimum for "ogre-sized," and those guys don't look that bulky

Think Space Marine Terminator size and you have a good idea.

Thanks for the comparison, that's what I'd thought.

Yeah- I think GW makes perfectly nice models, but prices them way above what they should. I just got Silver Tower for $90 off of ebay or something, which come with a lot of models, but not fantastic quality (several things broke, and all the printed materials other than the tiles were low quality), and with okay game value. With caveats, I'd recommend it at $90, and think it's a bit rough for $150, This one, though, you're looking at practically no game boards; half as many elaborate models; and none of the 44 simpler (1-4 piece) models, for nearly half the price. So, to me, this looks like a really poor deal.

The Silver Tower is the only "real" board game imo. Every other board game GW has put out recently have been roundabout ways of them making bundles for their other models.

Each of the Gorechosen models here was available for 35 CAD (so I think 25-30 USD?) on their own on release. So four of them together would have been a ballbustingly expensive 140 CAD (or 100-120 USD). For Four Models. The board game parts were an afterthought because they needed to move models.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah... it's gonna' take a very nice human-sized model for me to think it's worth $15, and as a board gamer, I think that's an absurd price for four pawns in what I'm expecting is going to be a cheap little game without great replay value.

I hate to see what you think of the new Star Trek game then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yay more pricing discussions, wooo.

Woo another person who can choose not read the comments and move on but doesn't.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The Silver Tower is the only "real" board game imo. Every other board game GW has put out recently have been roundabout ways of them making bundles for their other models.

Each of the Gorechosen models here was available for 35 CAD (so I think 25-30 USD?) on their own on release. So four of them together would have been a ballbustingly expensive 140 CAD (or 100-120 USD). For Four Models. The board game parts were an afterthought because they needed to move models.

DW:O was actually a solid board game as well.

As is Betrayal at Calth.

I am quite tempted by Gorechosen. For me I think about my hobby in terms of projects. Making a 3000pt AoS tournament army, painting up DW:O, completing my Necromunda Escher collection etc etc. These are all projects I have and some will take a long time to complete because I like to paint everything to my best ability (my AoS tournament army is now 2000+ points fully painted - but that has taken me over a year and a half).

What I see here is a very very manageable project - 5 models (including the free WD mini). I love the Bloodbound but don't want the commitment of another army just yet - this gives me a fun game to play potentially with non-wargamers. If it is ridiculous and gory it could be some good laughs. Even if I don't play it that often it is a full set I can display together in my cabinet as a centrepiece.

And at £35 it seems very reasonable to me - but I don't value it specifically in weight of plastic but instead how much enjoyment the project is going to give when working on it and after completion. Four/five models I can really go to town on with the paint jobs and great gaming set to go with it.

 Bottle wrote:
I am quite tempted by Gorechosen. For me I think about my hobby in terms of projects. Making a 3000pt AoS tournament army, painting up DW:O, completing my Necromunda Escher collection etc etc. These are all projects I have and some will take a long time to complete because I like to paint everything to my best ability (my AoS tournament army is now 2000+ points fully painted - but that has taken me over a year and a half).

What I see here is a very very manageable project - 5 models (including the free WD mini). I love the Bloodbound but don't want the commitment of another army just yet - this gives me a fun game to play potentially with non-wargamers. If it is ridiculous and gory it could be some good laughs. Even if I don't play it that often it is a full set I can display together in my cabinet as a centrepiece.

And at £35 it seems very reasonable to me - but I don't value it specifically in weight of plastic but instead how much enjoyment the project is going to give when working on it and after completion. Four/five models I can really go to town on with the paint jobs and great gaming set to go with it.

Also keep in mind that all 4 minis have rules for Silver Tower.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
I am quite tempted by Gorechosen. For me I think about my hobby in terms of projects. Making a 3000pt AoS tournament army, painting up DW:O, completing my Necromunda Escher collection etc etc. These are all projects I have and some will take a long time to complete because I like to paint everything to my best ability (my AoS tournament army is now 2000+ points fully painted - but that has taken me over a year and a half).

What I see here is a very very manageable project - 5 models (including the free WD mini). I love the Bloodbound but don't want the commitment of another army just yet - this gives me a fun game to play potentially with non-wargamers. If it is ridiculous and gory it could be some good laughs. Even if I don't play it that often it is a full set I can display together in my cabinet as a centrepiece.

And at £35 it seems very reasonable to me - but I don't value it specifically in weight of plastic but instead how much enjoyment the project is going to give when working on it and after completion. Four/five models I can really go to town on with the paint jobs and great gaming set to go with it.

Also keep in mind that all 4 minis have rules for Silver Tower.

Was just about to post this same thing. I am hoping that in fact, Gorechosen will in turn have rules for the other heroes from Silver Tower or other AoS models. It doesn't make immediate thematic sense, but I could see "captured Stormcasts or Orruks" being forced to fight in the arena.

It's probably a pipe dream. We still don't have a Silver Tower FAQ.

There's a silver tower errata (not a FAQ, but they come piece and parcel these days).

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/ENG_Silver_Tower_v1.0.pdf

I'm hoping that GW will include silver tower cards in the box, but am not holding my breath - they would have listed it on the product page if that was the plan.

I imagine the first issue of White Dwarf will have some specific rules for using the hackblade slaughterpriest in Gorechosen. Adding other heroes would be fun like you say, there are lots of other Khorne champions which could be added in.

Silver tower eh? just when I thought I didn't need this...

I promised myself no more GW till I get all of the heroes painted, but they say promises are made to be broken.

It seems to be Gorechosen has rules for all AoS Khorne heroes.

Waaargh wrote:
It seems to be Gorechosen has rules for all AoS Khorne heroes.

I believe the app has rules available for all plastic AoS heroes.

I just hope it's a fun little game. Outside of things like ST's terribly laid out rulebook the recent GW boardgames are nice (well, haven't bought Lost Patrol). The Bloodbound heroes are okay models, but only the Slaughterpriests are truly great IMO, so I want some gaming fun out of them if I buy them.


(Of course I could always use them with Arena Rex rules if I like those during my upcoming tryout game)

decker_cky wrote:
There's a silver tower errata (not a FAQ, but they come piece and parcel these days).

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/ENG_Silver_Tower_v1.0.pdf

I'm hoping that GW will include silver tower cards in the box, but am not holding my breath - they would have listed it on the product page if that was the plan.

Ya. They have been working on a more robust FAQ to clarify several of the oddities since then.

Yeah, of all the things that need clarifying, that really wasn't what I'd consider a high priority compared to some more essential/widespread mechanics.

fortunately, someone working on the game has been fairly active on BGG, so, I've got decent hopes that a better one will be released.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
decker, I more meant that the price for what you get will likely turn off just about any board gamer.
Regarding them being pawns, I mostly meant that they're just play pieces. I think GW's doing what GW does best, which is make a kit too complex, then charge even more for it, based on it being too complex.

Regarding size, I don't have any comparison shots. So, they're like 2.5" tall? 'cause that's what I'm used to as a minimum for "ogre-sized," and those guys don't look that bulky

2.5"? That's pretty much 65mm. As a "minimum" for Ogre sized? I'd love to see which models you consider to be "ogres" in 28mm heroic scale, along with their RRP for that size.

You're also being deliberately disingenious. We all know the current wave of GW reboxings and boxed "games" are stealth price reductions via bundling - so that Rountree can say to his investors that sales have increased without any price drops. The games, if decent are essentially icing on the cake, but a lot of them are simply glorified boxed versions of the stuff we used to get in WD back in the day. WQ:ST and D:O seem to both be decent, though - and even though Execution Force is basically aka "The New Assassin Models Bundle", reports on it as a game are that it's pretty decent, if a little shallow.

The target market isn't so much the BGG crowd or even the CMON BG KS crowd, but us - the dedicated miniatures gamers/painters and those stepping into the hobby.

Where do you get Silver Tower rules for other models? Do you have to buy them in the app?

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Where do you get Silver Tower rules for other models? Do you have to buy them in the app?

Yes. They're .99 USD each, or you can buy them all for 27.99. I've bought rules for all the Khorne Bloodbound models I own.

 Azazelx wrote:
2.5"? That's pretty much 65mm. As a "minimum" for Ogre sized? I'd love to see which models you consider to be "ogres" in 28mm heroic scale, along with their RRP for that size.

1- warmachine, malifaux, kingdom death, are all examples of lines where you commonly get things with a head height at 2.5+"
2- I consider the khorne guys heavy infantry-sized, I'm not going to compare how good a deal they are compared to something I don't think they are equivalent to.

You're also being deliberately disingenious. We all know the current wave of GW reboxings and boxed "games" are stealth price reductions via bundling - so that Rountree can say to his investors that sales have increased without any price drops. The games, if decent are essentially icing on the cake, but a lot of them are simply glorified boxed versions of the stuff we used to get in WD back in the day.

No, I'm not, because, as you said,

WQ:ST and D:O seem to both be decent, though - and even though Execution Force is basically aka "The New Assassin Models Bundle", reports on it as a game are that it's pretty decent, if a little shallow.

I don't care if they re-box things or recycle rules to cut costs. I think space hulk is fantastic with basically old rules; I'm thoroughly enjoying silver tower which recycles a bunch of mechanics; I think lost patrol was complete trash because it didn't copy balanced mechanics from its predecessor, not because it was a lazy repackaging. I look for nice models with enjoyable rules for a reasonable price, possibly making exceptions to one category if another is spectacular. Considering GW, though, I don't think that the rules will blow my mind, and know what to expect from the other two, so will take a pass.

The target market isn't so much the BGG crowd or even the CMON BG KS crowd, but us - the dedicated miniatures gamers/painters and those stepping into the hobby.

Is it? And are those crowds mutually exclusive?

This actually looks like good value IMO. They figures are cool looking and there are few enough that it will be fun, not tiresome, to paint them all. If the game is decent I will certainly purchase this.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
2.5"? That's pretty much 65mm. As a "minimum" for Ogre sized? I'd love to see which models you consider to be "ogres" in 28mm heroic scale, along with their RRP for that size.

1- warmachine, malifaux, kingdom death, are all examples of lines where you commonly get things with a head height at 2.5+"
2- I consider the khorne guys heavy infantry-sized, I'm not going to compare how good a deal they are compared to something I don't think they are equivalent to.

Kingdom Death is in a firmly different scale, as is Malifaux (somewhat).

The newer Khorne stuff is larger than the old Chaos Warriors who I'd call heavy infantry. The Bloodbound and Bloodhumpers and so forth are like heavy heavy infantry, in terms of Warhammer-scaled - though not quite Ogre sized. Champions are larger, and certainly on a par, though proportioned differently. Still, the point here is "ogre sized" or what you'd apparently call the minimum for that- and Warmachine Ogruns are basically the same size as a GW Ogre (or even a Mantic Ogre), though with different proportions to the current OK stuff.

I won't argue against the fact that the current GW clampacks are overpriced, as I also feel that way, though I personally am happy with the proxy price of $15/ea. Anyone used to WM/H, KD or Malifaux shouldn't be shocked at those (proxy) price points, regardless of the aesthetic value which is subjective.

You're also being deliberately disingenious.

No, I'm not, because, as you said, <snip>
I don't care if they re-box things or recycle rules to cut costs. I think space hulk is fantastic with basically old rules; I'm thoroughly enjoying silver tower which recycles a bunch of mechanics; I think lost patrol was complete trash because it didn't copy balanced mechanics from its predecessor, not because it was a lazy repackaging. I look for nice models with enjoyable rules for a reasonable price, possibly making exceptions to one category if another is spectacular. Considering GW, though, I don't think that the rules will blow my mind, and know what to expect from the other two, so will take a pass.

I'm taking each game on its own merits, basically falling into one or both of two categories -

"Start Collecting-ish" bundles of models at a good price with rules tacked on (that may or may not be good or rubbish) - examples: Calth, Execution Force, that Imperial Knight game, Gorechosen.
These are aimed at us, as they're repackaging (or pre-packaging, as with Calth) of existing/new models at a more attractive price point for various business reasons - price drops/bundling without bundling, and also because sales of "new boxed games" looks much better than sales of "boxed models" in some business metrics.

"Games as Games" - again, quality is variable. I bought Lost Patrol for the components (I can use more scouts and stealers) but mostly because I have the original rules because internets - and it's much easier for me to buy the tiles in the boxed set than bugger about making my own (I'd rather be painting or gaming with my precious spare time). Otherwise I'd have easily given it a pass. DW:O and WQ:ST, as I think we both agree are on the other wise of the spectrum, being solid products in and of themselves at a (relatively) good price point. Premium compared to other boardgame products, but very reasonable when compared to GW retail products and how much we all know they'd charge for the models outside of a "starter set" format. (and may choose to do at some stage with sprue recuts).

The BGG/CMON KS crowd and Minis gamers are of course not mutually exclusive. There's tons of crossover - yourself and myself obviously included, but I'm clearly talking about the harder-core of each and their interaction on the Venn Diagram with some of the GW boxed "games". The ones that are glorified bundles. They're not going to buy Imperial Knights: Renegade because of the revolutionary gameplay - which is not why we bought it. But they aren't going to buy it simply because it saves you a few bucks on a pair of knights either, which is what we did.

Not sure about Kingdoms of Death, but Malifaux started at 32mm scale in first edition (similar height to GW heroic 28mm at the time, but finer proportions), then in second edition, the scale really ramped up. Malifaux is probably currently roughly a 35mm scale game.

The disappointing part of the khorne characters is that the basic khorne troops increased in scale too (though not to that extent). GW went for badasses among badasses, which doesn't really work when every other faction they face are badasses as well.