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If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
A grudge never too old to settle with metal and ire on the funeral pyre of vanquished foe
Doing a 40K End Times would be cool, as long as it doesn't actually end like Fantasy. Building up to a cleaned-up (read slimmed down) 8th ed would be ok.
I just don't want to relearn a whole new ruleset and have to revamp all my army lists....again.
Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
Forcing CSM Daemon Primarchs into 40K would exacerbate all of the current problems. Apocalypse has already crept into standard 40k way too much and there's so much rules bloat for everything and unbalanced units that throwing Daemon Primarchs into the mix would be awful. I'm the models would look great but what kind of points value would you need to play at to include Daemon Primarchs? If they have stats that reflect the fluff they'll cost a ton of points and now you're playing huge games with hundreds of models in a system with rules bloat that drags out gameplay even more. I don't see how putting more new and powerful units into 40k fixes anything.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/06/28 21:27:21
Subject: Re:40k moves forward - The End times begin?
Every rumor I've seen in past 9 months says move timeline forward but not destroy setting. Even wity lessons learned from AoS and rules simplifying I just can't see the exact AoS steps being taken.
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Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
Forcing CSM Daemon Primarchs into 40K would exacerbate all of the current problems. Apocalypse has already crept into standard 40k way too much and there's so much rules bloat for everything and unbalanced units that throwing Daemon Primarchs into the mix would be awful. I'm the models would look great but what kind of points value would you need to play at to include Daemon Primarchs? If they have stats that reflect the fluff they'll cost a ton of points and now you're playing huge games with hundreds of models in a system with rules bloat that drags out gameplay even more. I don't see how putting more new and powerful units into 40k fixes anything.
I suppose I was getting more at the risk to the fluff that has been built up over the past few decades but yeah you are right about the effect it will also have on the rules; irrespective of this I can see GW viewing the release of big epic Primarch models as fitting in with its current trend of bigger is better.Rules and Fluff wise there is a lot to be concerned about but I would still love to see what kind of models they put out all the same
A grudge never too old to settle with metal and ire on the funeral pyre of vanquished foe
Well, it'll be interesting to see how this shapes up. I'm waiting on 8th to determine if the future of 40k is something I want to continue to invest in (I just buy models I like from time to time). Honestly, the lore is an insignificant issue compared to what they do with the gameplay itself. If the game doesn't get any cheaper to play/introduce people into and/or if the bloat isn't managed, I think I'll just leave it behind for some other options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/28 22:27:56
A huge Chaos incursion could allow many reboot/soft reboot options. Anything from warping reality and bringing back missing races, like a comics crisis, to 'lost' personalities and units returning, to entirely new factions. Could be a smart move! Suspect crowd-pleasing resculpts of classic units plus some new showstoppers, if current trends are anything to go by.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2016/06/28 22:43:06
Subject: Re:40k moves forward - The End times begin?
Meh, whatever GW does concerning Demon Primarchs in 40K, I'm sure Forgeworld will do it better with them in 30K.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
lord_blackfang wrote: But the grognards rage every time something new is introduced and goo their pants every time a concept from Rogue Trader is brought back.
That's because one of these things is much cooler than the other:
There's a way to introduce new things, but they need to be well done and fit in with the 30-odd years of the established fluff and background. I don't think people have so much a dislike of "new" stuff, just that it needs to be done well, and not badly.
Am I the only one that thinks this will be a ten year project at least. A major mistake that Gw made with the warhammer end times was finishing it too quickly. I know a lot of people here hated it but it was a pretty big finincial success for gw. They could easily have made double the number of books.
With 40k I could easily see a 20 book series with 2 released each year. You could argue that this has already started with fenris and baal.
My hope that is that they will do at least two global campaigns and lean hard into the results. Meanwhile they can bring 30k more into the mainstream, perhaps expanding it beyond the end of the Heresy. I could easily see it being the leading product in ten years time.
Gw is a very different company now from a year ago. It is exciting to see where things will go.
JohnnyHell wrote: If multiple posters could stop referring to fluff as being raped that would be magical. Rape isn't funny or a clever comparison for the story that sells plastic figures being altered a bit and you not being happy about it. Just stop. Thanks. I've reported a few posts on a bunch of threads lately as it isn't acceptable, but let's save the mods work editing your inappropriate posts, yeah, and just not do it?
1. Internet Hyperbole is a thing. Everything is always the worst thing ever in the history of ever, even when it isn't (hell, especially when it isn't). You should know this by now.
2. Etymologically speaking, it's a perfectly fine word to describe the sundering of something else.
Can we please try to be a little bit better than 'fine' Using that word may be fine. Not using it is better.
Chikout wrote: Am I the only one that thinks this will be a ten year project at least. A major mistake that Gw made with the warhammer end times was finishing it too quickly. I know a lot of people here hated it but it was a pretty big finincial success for gw. They could easily have made double the number of books.
With 40k I could easily see a 20 book series with 2 released each year. You could argue that this has already started with fenris and baal.
My hope that is that they will do at least two global campaigns and lean hard into the results. Meanwhile they can bring 30k more into the mainstream, perhaps expanding it beyond the end of the Heresy. I could easily see it being the leading product in ten years time.
Gw is a very different company now from a year ago. It is exciting to see where things will go.
And Damocles even though most people don't like Tau it had a lot of stuff changing in it. Well more like a setup.
The demon primarchs will no doubt be the CSM equivilent to knights, wraithknight, etc. They'll have some fluff justification for them having their stats being 'mortal tier'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/29 00:51:49
ClockworkZion wrote: FW has already said they won't give the Daemon Primarch models so GW will be our only source of the models.
When did they say that? Because I thought they did plan to do those who became demons during the Heresy.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
Sinful Hero wrote: If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
You mean like the Eye of Terror Campaign? Or the Armageddon Campaign?
Sinful Hero wrote: If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
You mean like the Eye of Terror Campaign? Or the Armageddon Campaign?
I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
Or did Chaos win back then on the back of a dud codex?
I think my only concern with Daemon Primarchs is making sure they're priced properly and line up with FW's power level for primarchs... that is to say they should obviously be stronger and more expensive, but I half expect GW to cost them cheaper than their unascended versions just to sell more.
Sinful Hero wrote: I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
Or did Chaos win back then on the back of a dud codex?
Ah, I see what you mean.
And no, Chaos had the 3.5 'Dex then and the Eye of Terror Codex (Lost & The Damned armies were amazing!).
aka_mythos wrote: I think my only concern with Daemon Primarchs is making sure they're priced properly and line up with FW's power level for primarchs... that is to say they should obviously be stronger and more expensive, but I half expect GW to cost them cheaper than their unascended versions just to sell more.
And they'll be T6 as well, 'cause you just know they will be. 'Cept Mortarion. He'll be T7, and he'll have an extra wound.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 02:27:39
If they do another campaign they need to make the results matter. The best way would be to plan at least two stories based on the results. The imperium resurgent with primarchs at the fore, or the imperium facing it Darkest hour both have the potential for some compelling future campaigns. They have gone a long way to ressurecting aos by heavily involving the community. 40k would benefit from the same attention.
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