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Here'so a few suggestions that might help the game:

Bikes
-Lose +1T

-Ork Bikers gain 'Der Bigga' - +1T (no net change)

Dangerous Terrain
Bikes, Jetbikes, jump packs, and jet packs receive no Armor Save from failed DT

Bikes and Vehicles must stop movement when DT is failed, even if the wound is saved.

Vehicles suffer a Glance, and roll d6:
1-3: nothing
4: Shaken
5: Stunned
6: Immobilized

I take it you think bikes are too hard to kill (except ork bikes) and don't suffer enough penalties from terrain?

The toughness bonus was a way of representing the fact that 40k warbikes are big armoured engines that can repel small arms fire.
Prior to 3rd ed I believe shots could hit the bike (which was treated as a vehicle) and potentially do nothing- in 3rd ed they abstracted this to extra toughness.

How would you represent this if you take the +1T away, and what's the rationale for keeping it for orks?

I think the dangerous terrain changes are an overnerf: they force jump infantry to stay in open terrain, basically. Jet Pack infantry is similarly affected, though at least they can choose to slowly pick their way through ruins.

How is a Bike tougher than the SM riding it? SM are walking tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Orkz, they are bigger. Bigger is better. Because Orkz. Might as well ask why a red Battle Wagon is faster.

As for CWE and Harlequins, the 3+ and 4+ respectively show that.

As for readers, their bikes don't really offer protection. Look at them.

I don't think I thought through the DT penalties enough, though.

Bharring wrote:
How is a Bike tougher than the SM riding it? SM are walking tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Orkz, they are bigger. Bigger is better. Because Orkz. Might as well ask why a red Battle Wagon is faster.

As for CWE and Harlequins, the 3+ and 4+ respectively show that.

As for readers, their bikes don't really offer protection. Look at them.

I don't think I thought through the DT penalties enough, though.

I think the idea is that bike can absorb some of the incoming fire or blows. That could be represented as an armour save buff but armour saves don't have much room for buffing especially for marines so they went for toughness instead.

Kinda like how cavalry is tougher than infantry.

Except against firepower, typically being mounted on somethingetting made you more vulnerable.

If an Autocanoon smokes the bike, the Marine is probably out of action too.

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like how cavalry is tougher than infantry.

Except against firepower, typically being mounted on somethingetting made you more vulnerable.

If an Autocanoon smokes the bike, the Marine is probably out of action too.

Which is failing your save.

Why do you think any of this is necessary? Just make bikes a bit more expensive until they are no longer a no brainer.

The way I see it, whether the shot hits the bike or PA Marine, it's about equally likely to take it out.

Sure, some hits to the bike won't take it out that would have taken out the marine, but also some hits to the bike would take it out that wouldn't take out a Marine.

The same explosive bolter round that'd drop a Marine on foot might hit the bike instead of the Marine, but what makes the bike tougher? If it were, why not make Power Armor out of it?

The armor save and T4 seems to be enough to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bikes should be an option. But it should be a mobility choice, not a tankiness choice.

In pure mobility a jump pack is better.

There are large parts of a bike where being hit means nothing. The same cannot be said of a Marine.

Armor save and T4 is crap in 7th ed. At least T5 stops instakill on some nasty weapons and makes scatterlasers wound a 3+.

You couldn't make a change like this without gutting half a dozen other codices at the same time. It's why the "fix such and such faction" and "nerf such and such" threads always are futile without 100 other changes to go with them.

I'm not so sure this'd break any faction.

SM bikers would still be effective.

Orkz would be unchanged.

While Shining Spears don't need the nerf, Guardians and IC jet bikes do. SL bikes would still be OP, but less so. Boaters would kill them 33% faster. Las guns, if they get in range, 5p% faster. Not enough, but it'd help.

Harlies it'd suck for. That many points for a t3 4+/5++ 2w model that isn't great at t4. But it'd only be a few already-fragile models. It wouldn't affect them much.

DE reveavers die when they get looked at as is. No real change there.

It's really just SM and CWE that would notice.

This doesn't actually nerf windriders though. Nobody complains about them being as tough as a Space Marine. The problem is the damn scatter lasers/shuriken cannons. This just nerfs things that don't need it like Spears, Harlequins and Dark Eldar more than solve any actual problem units. The one unit that may be an issue is Space Marine Bike but the better way of fixing them is nerf scat bikes and SM Bikes individually.

I seem to be just about the only one who thinks it's a good idea.

Consider it retracted.

Easy way to fix bikes:

1. Make bikes a flat x points upgrade from the basic unit that it's supposed to modify, regardless of the codex, except for HQ choices.

2. Strip bikes of relentless.

3. Make it so that bikes cannot affect armor saves.

Keep everything else the same.

Thus:

Tactical Marine: 14 ppm.

Bike confers +1 toughness (mark of nurgle, a 2 points upgrade in the CSM codex), mobility similar to a jump pack (a 3 ppm upgrade in the SM codex), an additional weapon (a TL bolter), hammer of wrath and the ability to jink.

Let's say 10 points for a normal bike.

Jetbikes should cost more. For the sake of argument, let's say 12 points.

24 ppm for a biker marine. No relentless.

Eldar want a bike version of their dire avengers? Fine. Pay up 25 points for it. No relentless. And enjoy that 4+ armor save.

"Bike version of a Dire Avenger"?

Please don't give GW ideas. That's a fluff abomination. That'd be like giving SM something like Termies. But bigger. With bigger guns. Because reasons.

Bharring wrote:
"Bike version of a Dire Avenger"?

That's basically what a windrider is.

Sure, sure, fluffwise, it's a bike version of a guardian. Ruleswise, it acts a lot more like a bike version of a dire avenger.

If they want it to be, ruleswise, a guardian on a bike, then they need to make it cost 12 points more than a guardian, lose the relentless and make it have a 5+ armor save.

"nerf stuff that isn't my army!" Love threads like these.


Also, in OPs argument about space marines on bikes and replace that with orks. If no one else is getting extra toughness, they shouldn't.

(My armies are CWE, SM, and Harlies. I have some others, but don't have Orks. I don't think that characterization is accurate.)

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
"nerf stuff that isn't my army!" Love threads like these.


Also, in OPs argument about space marines on bikes and replace that with orks. If no one else is getting extra toughness, they shouldn't.

Do you deny that bikes, currently, are OP?

If you do deny this, then consider the fact that lots of people consider them auto-take.

The point of excluding Orks is because of two very different reasons:
Balance: They're Orkz. They don't need the nerf. They're basically the only bikes that pay the points for what bikes bring.

Fluff. With Orkz, bigger is better. An SM on a bike is an SM who is riding a bike. An Ork on a bike is bigger than an Ork on foot. SM don't think that way, but Orks do. And, just like red paint or ammo without gunpowder, Ork things work the way they think they do. So if Orkz think they're bigger, then they are tougher.

Bharring wrote:
The point of excluding Orks is because of two very different reasons:
Balance: They're Orkz. They don't need the nerf. They're basically the only bikes that pay the points for what bikes bring.

Fluff. With Orkz, bigger is better. An SM on a bike is an SM who is riding a bike. An Ork on a bike is bigger than an Ork on foot. SM don't think that way, but Orks do. And, just like red paint or ammo without gunpowder, Ork things work the way they think they do. So if Orkz think they're bigger, then they are tougher.

A Zhadsnark's warbiker costs 18 ppm. For all intents and purposes, it is a boy in heavy armor (a 10 point model) + bike. Bike confers 1. a gun that's better than a boltgun, 2. movement similar to a jetpack, 3. relentless, 4. the ability to jink, 5. hammer of wrath and 6. +1 toughness.

For 8 points.

Plus, they're troops. So if you run them in a CAD, they get objective secured!

No, orks aren't paying what they should be paying for their bikes.

Even if you took away relentless, there's still no way that this should only be an 8 point upgrade.

That's why ork bikes are considered a "competitive" option for the ork codex.

"Competitive" = OP bull gak.

Even taking into account the fact that boys in heavy armor are probably overcosted, there's no way that a Zhadsnark's warbiker should cost any less than 20 ppm (22-23 ppm is probably about right).

Bharring wrote:
"Bike version of a Dire Avenger"?

Please don't give GW ideas. That's a fluff abomination. That'd be like giving SM something like Termies. But bigger. With bigger guns. Because reasons.

What, like a Centurion?

A la carte doesn't work that well.

A powersword is 15 points per model.
A Banshee is a Storm Guardian (9ppm) + Power Sword (15ppm) + Aspect Armor + Acrobatic + Mask.

A Banshee is not worth 24ppm. Even if the rest of her kit were free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Tiernoc - that was the joke.)

Bharring wrote:
A la carte doesn't work that well.

A powersword is 15 points per model.
A Banshee is a Storm Guardian (9ppm) + Power Sword (15ppm) + Aspect Armor + Acrobatic + Mask.

A Banshee is not worth 24ppm. Even if the rest of her kit were free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Tiernoc - that was the joke.)

There's an easy way to test this.

Would you pay 24 ppm for a SM biker without relentless? If your answer is "no," would you at least have considered it?

What about 22 ppm for a Zhadsnark's warbiker without relentless?

How about 21 ppm for a windrider with a 5+ armor save and no relentless?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternative way of looking at Zhadsnark's warbikers:

A Zhadsnark warbiker is only 4 ppm better than a tactical marine with bolter?

I cry bull gak!

 Traditio wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
"nerf stuff that isn't my army!" Love threads like these.


Also, in OPs argument about space marines on bikes and replace that with orks. If no one else is getting extra toughness, they shouldn't.

Do you deny that bikes, currently, are OP?

If you do deny this, then consider the fact that lots of people consider them auto-take.

Never said they weren't. OP might be a bit much, but strong for sure.

The only Bikers that are currently a problem are the ones that Eldar have in the form of Scatterbikes. Make Scatterlasers 15 points and do something to make Shining Spears more worth it (like they gain Hit And Run as opposed to Warp Spiders having it for no reason other than them being better than everyone).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only Bikers that are currently a problem...

Please explain to me why a Zhadsnark's warbiker is only 4 ppm better than a tactical marine with bolter.

Bharring wrote:
The point of excluding Orks is because of two very different reasons:
Balance: They're Orkz. They don't need the nerf. They're basically the only bikes that pay the points for what bikes bring.

Fluff. With Orkz, bigger is better. An SM on a bike is an SM who is riding a bike. An Ork on a bike is bigger than an Ork on foot. SM don't think that way, but Orks do. And, just like red paint or ammo without gunpowder, Ork things work the way they think they do. So if Orkz think they're bigger, then they are tougher.

My point still stands. They get special treatment because they're orks? Talk to a BA player about their bikes being t4 now and see their reaction. (BY THE POWER INVESTED IN ME I SUMMON MARTEL! ) when you apply a rule like this try putting it in the other players stead. Sure you beefed up orks but suddenly white scar lists are moot.

And on fluff, I get the orks have the whole psychic thing going on, but how is a boy on a bike any bigger than a normal boy? And nobs, why aren't they t5, they've got huge egos! See? It doesn't really make sense.

And back to OP, you're nerfing vehicles and jump pack infantry even more, when they're already a lack luster choice. Why? Immobilization on a glance, what? No armour saves on DT is crap too.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be Orkz?

More seriously, I see it as kinda like the real world mental image of "bikers". It's how they see themselves. As for Nobs, that's a good point. It may need iterating.

Wouldn't BA bikes still be as good astuff vanilla? Heck, Bikes are one of the places FC would be rather useful.

I post here to see what other people think. I didn't realize Ork bikers were considered OP by some.